American McGee swing and a miss with Bad Day LA...
polycounter lvl 17
http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/927569.asp
It's scoring horrible all over the place! I was kinda looking forward to this sleazy GTA style game....
It's scoring horrible all over the place! I was kinda looking forward to this sleazy GTA style game....
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And according to his blog, the chinese workers weren't underpaid - he paid them based on chinese standards (which seems to be much lower than western standards).
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The reality is that an average game industry worker in China makes between US$500 and US$2000 per month, depending on position and experience. The guy making US$2k per month is receiving the equivalent of a US$100k salary in the US. The cost of living in China is really low, especially when compared to a high income/high cost of living country like the US. So, a workforce in China is going to be cheaper overall, but that doesnt mean that you arent paying them or that you arent paying them well by local standards.
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but that doesnt mean that you arent paying them or that you arent paying them well by local standards.
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Wow. That makes it A ok then. So when can they afford to take a vacation to the US or Europe to meet fellow CG artists?
Oh, and since it was made in China, Im sure he paid himself in a local amount that a developer in his position would normally receive. I mean it was "made in china" versus just outsourced to it of course.
(When I first heard of this guy (American McGee's Alice) I immediately thought..."What a cool name." I also associated his name somehow with a form of patriotism. It was a real selling point with me).
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but that doesnt mean that you arent paying them or that you arent paying them well by local standards.
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Wow. That makes it A ok then. So when can they afford to take a vacation to the US or Europe to meet fellow CG artists?
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Actually, it does make it okay, doesn't it? An artist working in Austin isn't going to make as much an an artist living in Los Angeles, but when factoring in the cost of living in both areas, their wages are comparable. As far as I know, videogame artists in China are paid well above what would be considered a "living wage"... it's not as if they're working in sweatshops.
The issue with American and European companies outsourcing to third-world countries like China is another argument.
The irony of American McGee setting up an outsourcing studio in China is pretty darn rich. And not in a good way. I'm with Miles on this one. Why couldn't he do the opposite, and try and promote American jobs in America for Americans that make games for Americans? Oh well.
An artist working in Austin isn't going to make as much an an artist living in Los Angeles, but when factoring in the cost of living in both areas, their wages are comparable. As far as I know, videogame artists in
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Awesome then! Cant wait to see our Chinese compatriots. I mean even your example one can travel to the other easily enough.
And your example even shows something more about what Im saying. So going from LA to TX one would expect a pay reduction to match local right? Well did our american brethern (Mcgee and the art directors) partake of this as I stated earlier?)
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Also, you arent working them insanely long hours - as might have been the case in the US before EA got itself sued by its employees.
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http://www.americanmcgee.com/wordpress/
Whats long hours? Was that previous income quote before or after overtime (if overtime pay allowed). Im just wondering. Whats overtime in Shanghai (is that were he was at?)
But yes, before this goes that direction... I will let Mcgee shoot himself. His response to a question on how important art is to a game.
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AM: I think a great game could live with no textures on the world and characters. I think a beautiful, bad game is still a bad game. That doesn't mean, however, that we shouldn't honor the theme of a world with an appropriate art style
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http://gamasutra.com/features/20060915/murdey_02.shtml
You mean like the one from Bad Day LA American?
Honestly, I think the guy's a hack. I'm curious to see if he plants that name of his on the next 'experiment' he cooks up. By the way, that's how you churn out crap and get away with it, you call it an 'experiemnt.' That way it looks like you're a poor game designer who's really trying and not soaking up publisher dollars time and time again. What a hero.
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By the way, that's how you churn out crap and get away with it, you call it an 'experiemnt.' That way it looks like you're a poor game designer who's really trying and not soaking up publisher dollars time and time again. What a hero.
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Well, again according to his blog (from what i can understand from that post, anyway) he had the game close to completion when he approached the US publisher.
Which may hold because of China's cheap-ness. He could have this game developed from his own money. And since it's cheap to develop it, if it makes poor sales, he may have a little profit (or he won't lose much).
(ps. no i'm not a McGee fanboy, i just happen to dislike game bashing based on misinformation)
And I don't think he really wanted to sell Alice with its graphics as the main selling point but not everyone is a great game designer and he probably isn't capable of making that great game that would work without textures.
Do you actually believe that USD's (slips of paper) are the ultimate measure of value? Doesn't that strike you as a little naive? As an economist I think that paying the local "going wage" to Chinese workers is completely fair.
People get way too overhyped for budget games it seems :O
Aside from the art style on Alice and what he did back at id, everything else has never had an impact.
Personally, I like his style. He just needs to hook up with a proper developer and make a good horror game.
Do you actually believe that USD's (slips of paper) are the ultimate measure of value? Doesn't that strike you as a little naive? As an economist I think that paying the local "going wage" to Chinese workers is completely fair.
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Why is it when many people simply disagree at a core central ideal, one group claims the other as Naive? Is it because they then dont have to see one anothers points and can claim they are the realist while the actual system is so many shades of subjective interpretation of varying facts?
Im not sure we are even circling the same point Ninja.Your arguing simple ideal economics (which I reply "Duh"), Im arguing morality and reality the ideals can create.
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you get the same amount of goods and services as you would if you convert an LA wage into goods and services in LA.
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By your arguement they would be at the same standard of living as we are. BTW it wouldnt be ecologically possible if China as whole was converted to the current market system (see things like ecological footprints.
I would point to when income descrepancies are too great from one area to another to try justifying your arguement. My example of the ability to travel internationally just being the tip of a very sarcastic iceberg. Again, as I said since this wasn't a outsourced game supposedly as mentioned earlier since Mcgee was over there living, and he mentioned before he brought a over few key members/leads.
Now as pointed previously by most logic when you move to another area with a lower income (and cost of living), you have to expect a incrome more in line with local. So were these american transports payed in a comparitive local wage? Im sure there is no need to answer this as we all know the answer (no). Afterall, by what you mentioned Ninja, they still should have been able to have the same standard of living right? (Other than not having the money to fly back to the US).
Lets not circle the drain, Its a double standard these types of "entrepreneurs" have when trying to defend their position.
If he wants to claim non-morality, that would be more inline with nature of this whole (IMHO) disgusting system. Instead if you look at his blog and Gamasutra writings, he is defending it in a context that is full sound and fury signifying nothing.
Lets take this in private ok? This is getting way beyond the scope of the issue here. Which is Mcgee's latest game is a bust in so many ways.
If the American Economy keeps tanking we'll be beating jobs off with nerf bats once again! How ironic would it be if foreign companies started moving to the US because its cheaper
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hahaha when they overturned a minimum wage raise for the 10th year in a row the daily show said the same thing. "the good news is in 5 more years all the outsourced work will come back to the states because it will be the cheapest labor available in the world."
A: You get the creme of the creme. B: You help to raise the wage standards quicker as other companies must begin the same to be able to get the best workers. C: This helps to undermine the Chinese authority as your "western ethics" workplace treats them as more than just a anonymous craftsman.
Oh, and paying for your staff to attend CG workshops and conventions internationally. You get more loyalty and a better artisans from it and your companies name around.
How about at least 1.5 above the upper average.
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this... 1.5 what above the upper average of what? Do you mean 1.5 times the upper average income? If so, then they already make several times that amount. Even at the lowest figure McGee gives ($500 a month), that's enough to put them into the top 10% of income earners in China. They are rich, by Chinese standards.
Take a look at this data. In 2001, the total income per capita was 6907.1 yuan ($872.49) a year, the "upper middle-income" was 8213.7 yuan ($1,037.54), the "high-income" was 10441.6 yuan ($1,318.97), and the "HIGHEST-income" was 15220.0 yuan ($1,922.57). Even at only $500 a month, Chinese artists make 300% more than what would be considered the highest income bracket. They are paid VERY well. So well, in fact, that they are actually a part of the growing disparity in income distribution in China (they are on the rich side of that disparity).
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Then instituting the same work hours more enlightened companies have over here.
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What makes you think their hours are any different from American artists? I'm sure at times they go through crunch, and there are other times when they probably have a more relaxed work schedule. In fact, I'm pretty sure the average US worker works more hours annually then the average Chinese worker. The US is one of the worst countries when it comes to work hours and vacation time.
It is the Chinese economy that is being exploited, not the Chinese workers (at least not in the videogame industry... the textile and manufacturing industries are another story). Don't fret for the Chinese artists, they aren't the ones getting the raw end of the deal. It's not a question of morals or ethics, it's a question of philosophy and politics. Should American companies be allowed to export labor to a communist country that is such a large human rights violator (after all, isn't that supposedly why we have an embargo against Cuba)? Should there be some sort of tariff or tax on exporting labor in order to protect domestic labor? Like I said earlier, these are different arguments.
Do you mean 1.5 times the upper average income? If so, then they already make several times that amount. Even at the lowest figure McGee gives ($500 a month), that's enough to put them into the top 10% of income earners in China. They are rich, by Chinese standards.
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No, the average chinese artist game industry. So in other words, I honestly don't care if they are "rich". My point is to drive the economy faster while getting the best of the best. So if your paying X amount higher than the rest, other companies who want to retain the best workers have to also raise. Which begins to drives up the value of the currency. Prices are raised, the cycle begins again. If it is driven far enough, any "value" in outsourcing is no longer the core arguement.
However with what I stated above, you then will have highly trained artists, so companies will still come versus now going to India because of the production value you can provide.
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What makes you think their hours are any different from American artists?
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What makes you think there is or isn't? I also stated enlightened companies. Can you give a concrete example of what their (game artists) hours are (I tried looking on Mcgees blog without success)? Im actually wondering on this. We once had a EA member from Shanghai, are they still out there?
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It's not a question of morals or ethics, it's a question of philosophy and politics. Should American companies be allowed to export labor to a communist country that is such a large human rights violator (after all, isn't that supposedly why we have an embargo against Cuba)?
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You just seemed to give me a ethics arguement in the above? I honestly dont see the distinction your trying to draw. There are ethics involved with the political arguement. They are all incorporated in a grey mess versus being distinct from one another.
It's like looking back at the average salary of a doctor in the 1930's and saying, "OMG, they were so underpaid. Doctors today make more than 10x that amount." Yeah, and gasoline costs 20x as much, milk costs 20x as much, and housing costs 100x as much.
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Just because we pay 10 times what our grandparents paid for chewing gum, doesn't mean everyone should.
Economics runs on supply and demand. If you start handing out boatloads of currency to people the currency becomes less valuable. Germany tried this in WW2. Just print more money and everyone is rich right? well no, the german mark crashed, and was more valuable as fire kindling than as useable currency.
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So if your paying X amount higher than the rest, other companies who want to retain the best workers have to also raise. Which begins to drives up the value of the currency. Prices are raised, the cycle begins again. If it is driven far enough, any "value" in outsourcing is no longer the core arguement.
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This just doesnt work man. Try doing a companies payroll some time. Then up the salarys of everyone by 10% and try and make ends meet. Also it doesn't increase the value of currency, it reduces it. It really doesn't matter how many yuan it takes to buy a bigmac at a mcdonalds in LA, it matters how many yuan it takes to buy lunch in china. That's value.
By paying a single group of people, be it by occupation or other distinction, a large amount of money simply creates an income class disparity. Even if it caused prices to raise across the country, that just makes the lower income bracket persons that much more poor.
I manage a small pizza business. Very few employees but for them, and myself, its a way to pay our bills etc. Payroll is THE largest expense to the business, in line with actual product cost. If the minimum wage was raised 2$ an hour federally, I can tell you, we wouldn't just pull more dollars out of our collective ass and hand them over to our employees, we'd let at least one person go, as that type of increase vs man hours becomes financially untenable. Raising wages has more effect than giving the workers more money, it also means that the employers have to make up that difference somewhere, which means end user cost, so that wage increase is effectivly nullified by the overall alteration in the prices of goods and services. This is why outsourcing exists to begin with. WE have so many dollars that they are becoming increasingly more worthless in our own country. The modern consumer won't pay more than about $50 for a video game, and production costs for that piece of software are well into the multi million dollar range, and rising because of the argument you have just posed. In order to keep this cycle going you either have to raise product prices in an equal proportion to your costs (how about paying $100 for your next computer game eh?) Or you reduce your costs to stay within a profit margin coming from expected sales of your $50 product. By paying people more in an effort to keep a compeditive edge we have in fact screwed ourselves out of our riches.
If you can live like a king in china for a minimum wage american salary that means that America is overpriced, not that China is poor.
Key, what is your description of "At the same time, the cost of goods and services in China is a small fraction of what the same goods and services are in the US."
Meaning what exactly? What goods? What services?
I guess the heart of the matter in which I am making the comparison is travel financial ability outside ones country. Barring US which all here seem to agree isnt a good idea as the "goal". UK, Euro, Can, Aust, any competent artist can get enough to travel abroad (however penny pinching).
Key, what is your description of "At the same time, the cost of goods and services in China is a small fraction of what the same goods and services are in the US."
Meaning what exactly? What goods? What services?
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Everything. What do you spend your money on? Food, entertainment, housing, clothing, transportation... I spend more than $100 on food every month, but in China, a $100 would probably be more than enough to feed someone VERY well for an entire year. Everything in China is significantly cheaper due to their weaker economy.
You can't hold Chinese salaries to American standards, because simply put, China is not America. In the US, $20,000 a year is barely enough for a small family to make ends meet; while in China, a large family could live comfortably with just 10% of that amount. It's just the nature of our different economies.
I'm not trying to defend the practice of outsourcing to thirdworld nations (I have other issues with it), I'm just saying that the pay of Chinese artists isn't really an issue. They are paid pretty well. These aren't Mexican auto workers who aren't paid enough to feed and clothe themselves, or sweatshop workers who are forced to work 16 hour days for pennies. They make a pretty good living.
Everything. What do you spend your money on? Food, entertainment, housing, clothing, transportation... I spend more than $100 on food every month, but in China, a $100 would probably be more than enough to feed someone VERY well for an entire year.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
have you ever been to China?
this is so funny. its not boliva dude.
its a bit less expensive not much. going out to a resturaunt is about 3 to 6 bucks american for standard fare stuff. hotel is 50 -60 bucks for 3 star 100 bucks for 4 to 5 star.
a teacher coming from america teaching english can make about RMB 8000 a month wich is considered low for a big city like Hong Kong, and translates in to about 1010.16 american dollars. rent is about 1500 to 2000 RMB for a modest place.
where do you guys get all this crap about them living on pennies a day. this is the most retarded crap i have ever read in my life. sure if your a rice farmer and you live off the land i can see not needing much money at all, but come on the rice farmers arnt making games, its people in the cities who live in the cities and make enough money for at least rent, and how are they making games? on computers made of sticks and mud?
just so there is no more of this pennies a day crap..
average yearly salary for a Graphic artist in China after taxes $23,174 American dollars about 2 grand a month.
My budget wasn't based on eating out for every meal, where things are going to cost more (especially in a tourist area, where they can obviously charge much higher prices); I meant the cost to go out and get groceries to prepare your own meals (which is what I do). I said "probably," because I really have no idea how much groceries cost in Shanghai (but I'm pretty sure the essentials are quite a bit cheaper than at my local Safeway). I was only trying to demonstrate how it costs much less to live in mainland China than it does in California, my point wasn't about exactly how cheap the food is there.
Maybe I'm wrong about Chinese artists not being underpaid, but from everything I've read, they're paid higher than most Chinese professionals (and much higher than Chinese laborers). I don't really know why I've carried on the argument this long, since I don't actually disagree with Oxy; I just didn't think the salaries of Chinese artists was one of the issues. In fact, I saw it as one of the positive aspects of outsourcing, since [I thought] they made a pretty decent living from it.
http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/fid-14218
there is a job search on the bottom you can type in anything you want, if they have the job type available.
Where do you guys get all this crap about them living on pennies a day. this is the most retarded crap i have ever read in my life.
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I think when comericals from these guys is all anyone in your typical subrian wasteland sees of the world outside the "civilize world" and automaticly thinks it applies to every class in every nation that is not the US or in the EU.
To be fair China does regulate its media pretty tightly both going and coming. It works in thier favor to propagate the view that outside money goes far in china.