i try not to cross the street either. You really CAN get hit by a bus. Busses and massive heavy trucks are driven by morons who don't grasp the dual concepts of momentum and tight spaces, and not combining the two. Fuck that.
And as for planes ... goddamn, engines break down. It's bad enough a car breaking down in the outside lane of a busy motorway. 30,000 feet up? Thank you, no. Worried about the bloke next to you being a nutjob with an exploding can of coke, and you're not worried about being sat inside an immensely heavy block of metal moving along in the AIR?! If concorde banked to sharply, it's wings would snap off. There's a man at the front holding the steering wheel thing with the complete ability to make it bank sharply when ever he felt like it, or didn't feel like it. Man alive, it's mental. Flying metal! It's like something out of a jules verne novel.
[ QUOTE ]
Vermilion, as nice as your view would be, it just doesn't add up. There are other countries in the world with as much wealth as the US (or close to), other countries with better living conditions. These countries are no ones enemies. (Look at Canada and Australia for instance).
[/ QUOTE ]
I think they see those countries as America lite or lil America. Why cut off a pinky when you can lop off the head. Not saying those countries are less or play second fiddle to the (hands on hips)mighty US-OF-A or anything but thats how the middle east looks at the west.
Yet another small win for the terrorists.
Their "job" is to scare people, if everyone would just ignore them then they would stop.
Right now they wouldnt have to do shit to scare people, they could just leak some info and the goverments take care of the scaring part.
[ QUOTE ]
Yet another small win for the terrorists.
Their "job" is to scare people, if everyone would just ignore them then they would stop.
Right now they wouldnt have to do shit to scare people, they could just leak some info and the goverments take care of the scaring part.
[/ QUOTE ]
If I was on a UK>US flight yesterday, I'd have been somewhat glad that Scotland Yard and MI5 didn't 'ignore them'.
No, I don't think they would 'just stop' at all actually. I'll put my money on 'they will stop at nothing'.
And furthermore, seeing as you're keeping score, if uncovering this plot is a 'small win' for the terrorists, you realise that If they'd have succesfully taken down the (rumoured no.) 10 airliners, that that would have been an absolutely colossal victory of staggering magnitude for them right?
I really dont get some of the logic in this thread one iota. Stopping determined terrorists from taking down airliners is fucking hard. What exactly is everyones beef here? Pissed that there were some flight/travel disruptions? You'd rather the alternative of *what* exactly? Confused as fuck.
hahaha, the internet cracks me up... there is seriously an overwhelming amount of people on the internet who feel the need to "stick it to the man" and talk about how the world is ending like they know everything.
a lot of people like to bitch about how we don't have as many freedoms anymore. well, fortunately for the original writers of our constitution and bill of rights you couldn't blow up an entire stadium filled with millions of people with something that fits in the back of a truck. things change, and ill bet a million dollars if we got ALL of our freedoms back and there was lax security, the people bitching would just find something new to bitch about. one day one of their family members might be on a plane that gets blown up by some extremists, then they move to complain how the government doesn't protect us enough.
there won't be a revolution in the US. im tired of fucking hearing it, some people watch way too many movies.
[ QUOTE ]
If I was on a UK>US flight yesterday, I'd have been somewhat glad that Scotland Yard and MI5 didn't 'ignore them'.
No, I don't think they would 'just stop' at all actually. I'll put my money on 'they will stop at nothing'.
And furthermore, seeing as you're keeping score, if uncovering this plot is a 'small win' for the terrorists, you realise that If they'd have succesfully taken down the (rumoured no.) 10 airliners, that that would have been an absolutely colossal victory of staggering magnitude for them right?
I really dont get some of the logic in this thread one iota. Stopping determined terrorists from taking down airliners is fucking hard. What exactly is everyones beef here? Pissed that there were some flight/travel disruptions? You'd rather the alternative of *what* exactly? Confused as fuck.
[/ QUOTE ]
It might just have been a diversion or just false info.
Think about it, its just a simple plan that you could mastermind it alone and after youve done it you could execute it in like a week. With the martyrs knowing like the day before. So the info leaking out to the police is very unlikely.
They cant kill everyone and i assume they are not so stupid to think that they can. So they just play mind games aka terror but you cant terrorize someone who is not affraid of you.
Right now the press scream "the end is near!" and goverments support that scream with their words and actions.
People belive that terrorism is very high priority and goverments spend shitload of money on preventive actions. In the long run it will economicaly cripple the western countries and they would lose global influence because they can afford to throw money or armies around anymore.
BTW the support for war in Iraq has dropped to 39% in USA, its bad for the terrorists because this war is the flagship money-sink. So if they install some fear now the support might increase and money burning will keep going.
I don't get it, of course you can terrorize someone that is not affraid of you as if that would matter when people get killed.
I agree with you that "we" are spending ALOT of money in this "war" but I would not missinterpret the mindset of a terrorist as a open tatical one that works at the level of creating a bubble of fear through mindgames.
These people wan't to see dead corps of those faceing their ideology so it becomes very hard to destiguish the difference between a false fear information and a real threat. To be honest if I would have so many puppets at my disposal to wage my war I would actually use them to spread REAL fear. (because we are getting a bit "used" to it)
If they wanted to just kill people they would have killed a lot more.
You know its far more easier for example to hijack a fuel truck, drive it into a shopping mall and blow it up than to get explosives on board of an airplane.
And you shouldnt underestimate their leaders, most of them are propably not really religeous or ideologic, they just use religion to brainwash puppets.
true fair play, the planeidea does bring up the 9/11 pictures and I would think that it also has a more symbolic feareffect if you blow up planes coordinated over various citys.
Then I must say if the leaders are not really religeous why of should choose the islamic fundementalists to reach whatever goals they want to reach through terror. I do belive that most of these people are acting under this ideology.
I can also see these people as very edjucated intelligent people that can definatly put down their point to an indiscussable level but they are still think and preceive within the limits of their ideology wich has "infected" nearly every part of their identity and furthermore their entire life, world etc.
I would not touch this subject with pure kausal logic.
They are born to the islamic world and if they didnt act like they belive in it they would be outcasts. Just like the US president is expected to attend church etc.
Also islam is very powerful weapon because it teaches self sacrifice for the greater "good" and godly rewards for it in the afterlife.
Of course, they are more predestined to fall into this idea, but "real" islam will not support the idea of lethal violence and reward for such.
I don't think you can compare "them" with your traditional western powerpeople because the motivation is an absolut different and even more dangerous one. The idea/movement growing there goes past the ego and represents a higher meaning and the turf it is growing on has a potential that should or can not be ignored.
I mean everybody has an opinion on this issue and to watch this whole conflict tear cultures and people appart (not that there are going to be a shitload of terrorists, wars, killing they are most extreme form) leaveing constructive communication and dialog aside while turning into a power and ideology (on both sides) game is a terrible direction we are takeing. When the hate drives appart you are much easyer to be turned into a useless caught up beeing or even raise the chance to be used.
As long as people get killed it deserves a serious amount of thinking and vision to unknot this shit and no quick and absolut positions & solutions imho
Actually i think their goal is far less insane and diablolic.
One theory i have is that they want to whipe Israel off the map and take control over UAE. Both these countries have strong ties to the USA but they are geographicaly far away so helping them costs a lot of money. By weakening the USA and rest of the western world economically and causing some internal problems they can essentially remove the shield from Israel and UAE.
The plane thing came at a very convinient time, it steals headlines from the Israel's assault (which weakens Israel because they are fighting ghosts just like USA does in Iraq) and maybe rise the western popularity of war in Iraq.
[ QUOTE ]
If you think everything that's going on in the Middle East is because "they hate our freedom," or "haves and have-nots," then you're really burying your head in the sand and not paying attention.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you think I even once attributed "everything" about any international conflict to a single cause, you have a crippling problem with your reading comprehension. That or you're a mouth-breathing troglodyte who deliberately pretends to misread things in order to provoke people, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. HAND
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you think everything that's going on in the Middle East is because "they hate our freedom," or "haves and have-nots," then you're really burying your head in the sand and not paying attention.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you think I even once attributed "everything" about any international conflict to a single cause, you have a crippling problem with your reading comprehension. That or you're a mouth-breathing troglodyte who deliberately pretends to misread things in order to provoke people, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. HAND
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, but isn't that the party line? I mean, isn't that what the media is selling? Isn't that what most Americans believe? You don't see our heads of state addressing our dismal history with the Middle East in public- you don't hear anyone saying "mistakes were made". No, it's always, "These fanatics hate us for our freedom and will stop at nothing, blah, blah, blah..." I won't blame everything on Bush- it's a continuation of policy. I think the notion of jealousy is hogwash. I say it's policy plus religious fanatacism, and that fanatacism exists on both sides.
As for this particular event- what's next? Clothing? You can have explosive implants- mandatory x-rays? I'm of the opinion that we can never be 100% safe, and what we're seeing is another knee-jerk reaction by the Dept. of Homeland Fearmongering. At some point either the airlines will all go bankrupt (good news for the auto industry!) or we'll just admit it; travel is risky. You're not 100% safe. We can't entirely protect you. But it's still safer than driving. I'm not saying the various agencies that stopped this recent attempt should close their doors, of course- I'm just saying don't destroy the airline industry by treating us like cattle. The crime was foiled, wasn't it? So why does everyone else lose more rights?
[ QUOTE ]
Sure, but isn't that the party line? I mean, isn't that what the media is selling? Isn't that what most Americans believe?
[/ QUOTE ]
You lost me. Are you suggesting that I'm a Republican, a sucker for media spin, or that I'm a dull-witted lemming? Please clarify, so I know which flame to respond with
59 million domestic passangers rode airlines this month last year. Now they are saying that you have to show up 3 hours early for a domestic flight. That comes to 20,205 years of waiting every month, or if you assume an average life span of 80 years, 252 lifetimes worth of waiting every month. You can add a third to that number if you want to take into account that people sleep.
So unless they are stopping an airplane from getting blown up every month I really don't see what the point is (If you assume that the average plane passanger is 40 years old, they would need to stop at least 2 planes). Obviously this is a case of the cure being worse than the disease.
And that is just airport security. Obviously there are other problems with "increased security".
Personally I don't believe anything the government says.
You lost me. Are you suggesting that I'm a Republican, a sucker for media spin, or that I'm a dull-witted lemming? Please clarify, so I know which flame to respond with
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, none of the above- only that Keyser is more right than you. IMHO.
I read that they think the bomb may have been a Mubtakkar. Notice how security is just dumping everything in trashcans in a very crowded area, just send two guys through, one with a bottle of sodium cyanide and the other with hydrochloric acid, if they time it right only one guy has to die and they kill a shit load of people.
Replies
can we just start WWIII so we can all die already? kthxbye...
[/ QUOTE ]Ah don't worry, it will all be over soon... once the current USAdministration drop the bomb on Iran (and then North Korea).
And as for planes ... goddamn, engines break down. It's bad enough a car breaking down in the outside lane of a busy motorway. 30,000 feet up? Thank you, no. Worried about the bloke next to you being a nutjob with an exploding can of coke, and you're not worried about being sat inside an immensely heavy block of metal moving along in the AIR?! If concorde banked to sharply, it's wings would snap off. There's a man at the front holding the steering wheel thing with the complete ability to make it bank sharply when ever he felt like it, or didn't feel like it. Man alive, it's mental. Flying metal! It's like something out of a jules verne novel.
Vermilion, as nice as your view would be, it just doesn't add up. There are other countries in the world with as much wealth as the US (or close to), other countries with better living conditions. These countries are no ones enemies. (Look at Canada and Australia for instance).
[/ QUOTE ]
I think they see those countries as America lite or lil America. Why cut off a pinky when you can lop off the head. Not saying those countries are less or play second fiddle to the (hands on hips) mighty US-OF-A or anything but thats how the middle east looks at the west.
Their "job" is to scare people, if everyone would just ignore them then they would stop.
Right now they wouldnt have to do shit to scare people, they could just leak some info and the goverments take care of the scaring part.
Yet another small win for the terrorists.
Their "job" is to scare people, if everyone would just ignore them then they would stop.
Right now they wouldnt have to do shit to scare people, they could just leak some info and the goverments take care of the scaring part.
[/ QUOTE ]
If I was on a UK>US flight yesterday, I'd have been somewhat glad that Scotland Yard and MI5 didn't 'ignore them'.
No, I don't think they would 'just stop' at all actually. I'll put my money on 'they will stop at nothing'.
And furthermore, seeing as you're keeping score, if uncovering this plot is a 'small win' for the terrorists, you realise that If they'd have succesfully taken down the (rumoured no.) 10 airliners, that that would have been an absolutely colossal victory of staggering magnitude for them right?
I really dont get some of the logic in this thread one iota. Stopping determined terrorists from taking down airliners is fucking hard. What exactly is everyones beef here? Pissed that there were some flight/travel disruptions? You'd rather the alternative of *what* exactly? Confused as fuck.
a lot of people like to bitch about how we don't have as many freedoms anymore. well, fortunately for the original writers of our constitution and bill of rights you couldn't blow up an entire stadium filled with millions of people with something that fits in the back of a truck. things change, and ill bet a million dollars if we got ALL of our freedoms back and there was lax security, the people bitching would just find something new to bitch about. one day one of their family members might be on a plane that gets blown up by some extremists, then they move to complain how the government doesn't protect us enough.
there won't be a revolution in the US. im tired of fucking hearing it, some people watch way too many movies.
I think they see those countries as America lite or lil America. Why cut off a pinky when you can lop off the head.
[/ QUOTE ]
Canada I can see, but Australia? They're far from the US.
Also, read Keyser's post. Answers this whole thing excellently.
If I was on a UK>US flight yesterday, I'd have been somewhat glad that Scotland Yard and MI5 didn't 'ignore them'.
No, I don't think they would 'just stop' at all actually. I'll put my money on 'they will stop at nothing'.
And furthermore, seeing as you're keeping score, if uncovering this plot is a 'small win' for the terrorists, you realise that If they'd have succesfully taken down the (rumoured no.) 10 airliners, that that would have been an absolutely colossal victory of staggering magnitude for them right?
I really dont get some of the logic in this thread one iota. Stopping determined terrorists from taking down airliners is fucking hard. What exactly is everyones beef here? Pissed that there were some flight/travel disruptions? You'd rather the alternative of *what* exactly? Confused as fuck.
[/ QUOTE ]
It might just have been a diversion or just false info.
Think about it, its just a simple plan that you could mastermind it alone and after youve done it you could execute it in like a week. With the martyrs knowing like the day before. So the info leaking out to the police is very unlikely.
They cant kill everyone and i assume they are not so stupid to think that they can. So they just play mind games aka terror but you cant terrorize someone who is not affraid of you.
Right now the press scream "the end is near!" and goverments support that scream with their words and actions.
People belive that terrorism is very high priority and goverments spend shitload of money on preventive actions. In the long run it will economicaly cripple the western countries and they would lose global influence because they can afford to throw money or armies around anymore.
BTW the support for war in Iraq has dropped to 39% in USA, its bad for the terrorists because this war is the flagship money-sink. So if they install some fear now the support might increase and money burning will keep going.
I agree with you that "we" are spending ALOT of money in this "war" but I would not missinterpret the mindset of a terrorist as a open tatical one that works at the level of creating a bubble of fear through mindgames.
These people wan't to see dead corps of those faceing their ideology so it becomes very hard to destiguish the difference between a false fear information and a real threat. To be honest if I would have so many puppets at my disposal to wage my war I would actually use them to spread REAL fear. (because we are getting a bit "used" to it)
You know its far more easier for example to hijack a fuel truck, drive it into a shopping mall and blow it up than to get explosives on board of an airplane.
And you shouldnt underestimate their leaders, most of them are propably not really religeous or ideologic, they just use religion to brainwash puppets.
Then I must say if the leaders are not really religeous why of should choose the islamic fundementalists to reach whatever goals they want to reach through terror. I do belive that most of these people are acting under this ideology.
I can also see these people as very edjucated intelligent people that can definatly put down their point to an indiscussable level but they are still think and preceive within the limits of their ideology wich has "infected" nearly every part of their identity and furthermore their entire life, world etc.
I would not touch this subject with pure kausal logic.
Also islam is very powerful weapon because it teaches self sacrifice for the greater "good" and godly rewards for it in the afterlife.
I don't think you can compare "them" with your traditional western powerpeople because the motivation is an absolut different and even more dangerous one. The idea/movement growing there goes past the ego and represents a higher meaning and the turf it is growing on has a potential that should or can not be ignored.
I mean everybody has an opinion on this issue and to watch this whole conflict tear cultures and people appart (not that there are going to be a shitload of terrorists, wars, killing they are most extreme form) leaveing constructive communication and dialog aside while turning into a power and ideology (on both sides) game is a terrible direction we are takeing. When the hate drives appart you are much easyer to be turned into a useless caught up beeing or even raise the chance to be used.
As long as people get killed it deserves a serious amount of thinking and vision to unknot this shit and no quick and absolut positions & solutions imho
One theory i have is that they want to whipe Israel off the map and take control over UAE. Both these countries have strong ties to the USA but they are geographicaly far away so helping them costs a lot of money. By weakening the USA and rest of the western world economically and causing some internal problems they can essentially remove the shield from Israel and UAE.
The plane thing came at a very convinient time, it steals headlines from the Israel's assault (which weakens Israel because they are fighting ghosts just like USA does in Iraq) and maybe rise the western popularity of war in Iraq.
If you think everything that's going on in the Middle East is because "they hate our freedom," or "haves and have-nots," then you're really burying your head in the sand and not paying attention.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you think I even once attributed "everything" about any international conflict to a single cause, you have a crippling problem with your reading comprehension. That or you're a mouth-breathing troglodyte who deliberately pretends to misread things in order to provoke people, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. HAND
[ QUOTE ]
If you think everything that's going on in the Middle East is because "they hate our freedom," or "haves and have-nots," then you're really burying your head in the sand and not paying attention.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you think I even once attributed "everything" about any international conflict to a single cause, you have a crippling problem with your reading comprehension. That or you're a mouth-breathing troglodyte who deliberately pretends to misread things in order to provoke people, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. HAND
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, but isn't that the party line? I mean, isn't that what the media is selling? Isn't that what most Americans believe? You don't see our heads of state addressing our dismal history with the Middle East in public- you don't hear anyone saying "mistakes were made". No, it's always, "These fanatics hate us for our freedom and will stop at nothing, blah, blah, blah..." I won't blame everything on Bush- it's a continuation of policy. I think the notion of jealousy is hogwash. I say it's policy plus religious fanatacism, and that fanatacism exists on both sides.
As for this particular event- what's next? Clothing? You can have explosive implants- mandatory x-rays? I'm of the opinion that we can never be 100% safe, and what we're seeing is another knee-jerk reaction by the Dept. of Homeland Fearmongering. At some point either the airlines will all go bankrupt (good news for the auto industry!) or we'll just admit it; travel is risky. You're not 100% safe. We can't entirely protect you. But it's still safer than driving. I'm not saying the various agencies that stopped this recent attempt should close their doors, of course- I'm just saying don't destroy the airline industry by treating us like cattle. The crime was foiled, wasn't it? So why does everyone else lose more rights?
Jones: "sir, everyone seems to be getting pretty angsty about this israel-lebanon thing, what should we do?"
General Beans: "I don't know, but we need something to distract them. Figure it out."
2 days later...
Beneral Beans: "brilliant, Jones! You're getting a promotion!"
Sure, but isn't that the party line? I mean, isn't that what the media is selling? Isn't that what most Americans believe?
[/ QUOTE ]
You lost me. Are you suggesting that I'm a Republican, a sucker for media spin, or that I'm a dull-witted lemming? Please clarify, so I know which flame to respond with
So unless they are stopping an airplane from getting blown up every month I really don't see what the point is (If you assume that the average plane passanger is 40 years old, they would need to stop at least 2 planes). Obviously this is a case of the cure being worse than the disease.
And that is just airport security. Obviously there are other problems with "increased security".
Personally I don't believe anything the government says.
You lost me. Are you suggesting that I'm a Republican, a sucker for media spin, or that I'm a dull-witted lemming? Please clarify, so I know which flame to respond with
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, none of the above- only that Keyser is more right than you.