What are the triangles for

Krisonrik

Recently I came accross few Final Fantasy XI models. When I check the wireframe, it's all build up with triangles. I am quite confused. Since I see most of the 3D modeler here build models with quad, what's the deal with triangles? Are they neccessary for game model?

Joseph Silverman

Assentially all game models are in triangles when they're in engine. Quads are used for ease and smoothing.

snap.crackle.pop

We model in quads, but the pc/engine/application calculates them in triangles.

MoP

All quads consist of 2 triangles. However most 3d apps hide the edge that breaks the quad into triangles, because it's easier to work with.

All meshes, no matter if they're made of quads, pentagons, octagons or whatever polygon shape you have, will be rendered as triangles in a game engine.

Krisonrik

I see, thanks for the info. Now does this tranformation happen automatically inside the engine? or after modeling, modelers needs to give the final touch to break all quads into triangles?

MoP

Usually, it happens automatically.

However, it's probably a good idea to check the triangulation of your model before it's exported to a game though, as invisible edges running the wrong way can make shading look odd, or joint areas deform weirdly when animating. Not necessary entirely, but definitely a good habit to get into.

MoP

i want Per triangle control

CheapAlert

milkshape users are still like that now

adam

I model with nothing but star shaped polygons. It's true.

motives

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Am I getting old or something then?

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We all are. And then we die, and get put to earth in quad shaped boxes

Tulkamir

On a related question, did something happen in the industry that I missed? Or am I misinformed? My low poly modeling teacher is dead set against triangles. By which I mean he made a higher polycount, took out detail, etc... to make sure there were none. This was on a low poly (200 tri) head, not going to be smoothed or any such thing.

Now, I've alwasy been under the impression that quads are pretty much only used to ease workflow, make the mesh nicer, and for smoothing. Is there a reason for him to be so against them? He told me that some engines only allow quads (he actually said older engines mostly). I'm completely baffled, because that seems ass backwards to me.

So what is up? Is my teacher completely wrong, or am I?

Daz

um, no.

Tulkamir

Alright, thanks Daz, that's what I'd been thinking. I didn't really want to say anything at the time, or before I was positive I was right in case I got him pissed at me. (He's one of the top teachers).

To say the least I'm not very impressed, and will be having a bit a chat with him next class.

WHat I really don't understand his how he could be so wrong. Before becoming a teacher he was in the industry for something like 10 years. :P

Ahh well, thanks a bunch Daz.

(Btw I'd have my money on you and your right hook)

diZzyWalnut

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Oh my fucking God. Your tutor needs to be put against a wall and shot for spreading shite like that. Seriously, this quad/tris argument/discussion is driving people fucking INSANE. I am so utterly bored rigid of this whole discussion I am going to actually kill human beings. IT IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. Keep models predominantly quads for subdivision, realtime models do whatever the fuck you want. Leave some quads for cleanliness/visual clarity. It doesn't make a difference because realtime renderers can only render tris.

Your tutor is a fucktard of the highest order and the fact that he is in a position of 'teaching' is a bloody joke. I am so sick of the idiocy in this industry. Seriously, point him to this thread and my specific comments. I am SOOOooo beyond caring. He's a fucking idiot. I want to fight him. Is he big? I reckon I can take him. I'm pretty fit lately and my right hook is mean as fuck. Game engines cannot physically render quads, only triangles. You were correct in your estimation of how quads factor into game art. ffs. wtf.

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... - he deserve all of this. I'm not PRO just a hobbyst and I prefer to learn here than have one teacher like this.
Anyway He's <u>welcome at polycount</u> ;
some great guys as ( Poop ,Bobo, Pior , Mop ,Daz , Vahl ...and others ) can teach him. I'm sure of it.

That's realy sad story.

Daz

Lol wtf, when will I learn not to mix a good single malt whisky with polycount?

Go France!

MoP

lol daz, i'll fight you, armed only with quads, fashioned into triangles for stabbing!

Toomas

Do non-realtime renderers actually render quads?
I always tought they didnt as quad is not always flat and triangle is. And when the "non existing" edge is part of the shilouette then what??

SHEPEIRO

there are alot of miss/badly informed teachers out there, im almost glad i chose to do a fine art degree rather than a game art. ive had online arguments with them befor, usually abotu this or, watertight meshes, or overlapping texture space.

sometimes i think theyve been employed from general 3d backgrounds and have read "Game art for dummies", which makes them a source of all knowledge

Sage

To the best of my knowledge the 3d renderer in Max, Maya, Lightwave, and XSI always converts everything to tris at render time. I have never played much with Houdini but I imagine most of them do. By everything I mean nurbs, patches, metaballs, quads. I don't know how this quad thing came about though since it's just two triangles with an invisible shared edge. There are a lot of 3D modeling and animation professors that should be shot. When I went to school my professors that taught 3D animation all had Fine Arts backgrounds and some of them barely knew how to open the programs. The current Higher Education system in The US require professors to have a Masters degree minimum. Some schools that are starting their Game Design programs want their professors to have a Doctors degree. The reality is that most artists in the industry don't have and MFA. As a result of these rather insane requirements most Game Design professors don't have a clue what the game industry needs so students are not only wasting their money but learn garbage.

Alex

SHEPEIRO

that explains alot

kind of the reason i choose to do a fine arts degree, cos when i checked out the available design courses they looked pants (back in 1999-2000) the teaching sounded pants,i even remeber some of the course blurbs being nonsense. and that was back when my knwoledge was pretty lame.

i think iys got alot better than then, id do it now, as how else do you get a loan to spend 3 years on your portfolio.

fancy saying old engines dont support tris, have they ever played any?

Cybroxide

actually one of my teachers was telling me about this old ass engine that required you to do things in quads because it wouldnt import correctly otherwise. I didnt understand the exact technical stuff behind it but it was something like, when it went to transform a poly into a triangle and the poly was already a triangle it would get confused and crash. Wierd I'll see if I can get the name of it from him tommorow.

Toomas

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actually one of my teachers was telling me about this old ass engine that required you to do things in quads because it wouldnt import correctly otherwise. I didnt understand the exact technical stuff behind it but it was something like, when it went to transform a poly into a triangle and the poly was already a triangle it would get confused and crash. Wierd I'll see if I can get the name of it from him tommorow.

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And for buggy shit like that you are supposed to create inefficient assets, instead some coder spending 5mins and fixing the bloody thing?
How hard is it to code a check that determines wether the poly in question is quad or tri...

Cybroxide

yeah i actually talked to him today and he said it was a proprietary engine that he worked with a long time ago. He said it was actually the other way around you had to triangulate everything to bring it in. Sorry my bad.

Toomas

Other way around is more logical and not that hard to adjust your model for, select all verts and hit connect

Penzer

Glad to see this post. I was a little frustrated by that too, basically decided I will just do the quads he wants for his class and do what works for my own stuff. I think part of the reason that he's trying to push quads like that is because there are some students that still can't maintain their edgeloops. If he just says stick to quads, then people won't end up with models are super messy.

Tulkamir

Good to hear I'm not the only one Sam. But yea, you do make a good point.

I suppose I'll probably do the same as you. I did talk to him a bit about it though, he said that as long as the triangles don't affect the deformation in animation they'll be fine. So I'm still gonna have some in my model.