More important issue than immigration.
polycounter lvl 18
Ive read that lovely little post by Ninja and all the little Xenohpic fun, but frankly everyone is too involved in this issue,albiet an important issue there is a more pressing issue at hand,that is Iran.
Right now the wheels are in progress for the United States to attack Iran by years end. This will be more disastourous than any Mexican border and stealing your precious fruit picking jobs.
But Iran highlights the failure of this administration, President Bush lied to America to get people into Iraq and look how well thats going,just about every single justification to going into Iraq has been shown to be bullshit, Niger Uranium,mobile weapons labs,WMD all bullshit all lies but i guess Mexicans are that important that our media is blowing up the issue,whats next illegal immigration gay marriage? and the latest misconduct is from the Presidents office itself,did our president break US law for political purposes?? Law breaking president to get us into a stupid war is way more important than any Mexican.
One of the key arguements alot of people had about Iraq was that it was not a real threat and what would we do if we got into Iraq and had to face and take care of a real threat.
Well guess what,Iran is a real damn threat and something has to be done but how on earth will we fight this war?? how much resources have we poured into Iraq? Largest national deficeit,stretched out military,Afghanistan. Do any of you think really think we will be able to deal with Iran,Iraq and Afghanistan with our volunteer army?? nope if we have to fight a full scale war the Draft will come and its likely many of us will be drafted.
And the problem with Iran is that their military is intact and could fight back much effectively than the Iraqi army ever could in the second Iraq war.
And even if their militart cant take ours head to head they can definatly cause problems elsewhere. Irans western neighbor is Iraq and its Eastern neighbor is Afghanistan and Pakistan. And if you are going to fight the us military your best chance to win is to tie up their resources elsewhere where they cant mount an effective attack,how do you do this?? you flood Iraq and Afghanistan with weapons and arms causing furthur havoc in both areas which will give insurgent forces in Iraq a big boost and the Taliban as well, do you honostly think we can gaurd both of these borders,keep Iraq and Afghanistan stable enough to be military base of operations and fight Iran??
Then theres oil? Iran being part of Opec will surely shut down production skyrocketing oil prices?? if oil jumps to $100 dollars a barrel that will throw our country into a massive recession,jobs will be lost,prices for everything will go up.You think Hugo Chavez will be eager to boost production to help us or most of the middle eastern country.
and im sure some of you will suggest nuclear weaponry vs Iran,how well will that be recieved in the world,what type of coalitions of the willing (hahaha) will jump aboard to be part of the group who used nuclear weapons in our lifetime?
Which will hurt our country the most?? illegal immigrants? or a costly war vs Iran?
Wake up and smell the coffee,everyday we are getting closer to war with Iran and we will be led into this war by the same incompetant idiots who lied to us to get us into Iraq.
This upcoming conflict will hurt our country in way more ways than any immigrant crossing the border.
Right now the wheels are in progress for the United States to attack Iran by years end. This will be more disastourous than any Mexican border and stealing your precious fruit picking jobs.
But Iran highlights the failure of this administration, President Bush lied to America to get people into Iraq and look how well thats going,just about every single justification to going into Iraq has been shown to be bullshit, Niger Uranium,mobile weapons labs,WMD all bullshit all lies but i guess Mexicans are that important that our media is blowing up the issue,whats next illegal immigration gay marriage? and the latest misconduct is from the Presidents office itself,did our president break US law for political purposes?? Law breaking president to get us into a stupid war is way more important than any Mexican.
One of the key arguements alot of people had about Iraq was that it was not a real threat and what would we do if we got into Iraq and had to face and take care of a real threat.
Well guess what,Iran is a real damn threat and something has to be done but how on earth will we fight this war?? how much resources have we poured into Iraq? Largest national deficeit,stretched out military,Afghanistan. Do any of you think really think we will be able to deal with Iran,Iraq and Afghanistan with our volunteer army?? nope if we have to fight a full scale war the Draft will come and its likely many of us will be drafted.
And the problem with Iran is that their military is intact and could fight back much effectively than the Iraqi army ever could in the second Iraq war.
And even if their militart cant take ours head to head they can definatly cause problems elsewhere. Irans western neighbor is Iraq and its Eastern neighbor is Afghanistan and Pakistan. And if you are going to fight the us military your best chance to win is to tie up their resources elsewhere where they cant mount an effective attack,how do you do this?? you flood Iraq and Afghanistan with weapons and arms causing furthur havoc in both areas which will give insurgent forces in Iraq a big boost and the Taliban as well, do you honostly think we can gaurd both of these borders,keep Iraq and Afghanistan stable enough to be military base of operations and fight Iran??
Then theres oil? Iran being part of Opec will surely shut down production skyrocketing oil prices?? if oil jumps to $100 dollars a barrel that will throw our country into a massive recession,jobs will be lost,prices for everything will go up.You think Hugo Chavez will be eager to boost production to help us or most of the middle eastern country.
and im sure some of you will suggest nuclear weaponry vs Iran,how well will that be recieved in the world,what type of coalitions of the willing (hahaha) will jump aboard to be part of the group who used nuclear weapons in our lifetime?
Which will hurt our country the most?? illegal immigrants? or a costly war vs Iran?
Wake up and smell the coffee,everyday we are getting closer to war with Iran and we will be led into this war by the same incompetant idiots who lied to us to get us into Iraq.
This upcoming conflict will hurt our country in way more ways than any immigrant crossing the border.
Replies
I would imagine the main reason nobody's posted about it yet is that as a thread it's got fairly good potential for turning to shit.
But yeah, it's fucking scary. I'm actually even considered planning to leave the US If it really kicks off. Just because it has the potential to be *big* and I'd rather be with my family in Britain If that happens.
it was awful, is awful, and i pray that with the way things are now (Bush with a 35% approval rating, among other factors, like the ridiculous amount of money spent on the war), that everyone's able to put on the brakes as best we can to stop it before another country gets invaded.
I cant really fault the current administrations lack of movement on this issue, as I really cant see what we as the great satan could do to influence Iran. At least were on the same useless wavelength as the useless UN this useless time; a lot of talk and no go.
Im not really worried about Iran, well not as much as I am about North Korea, who are fucking ape-shit and actually threatened to bomb California (which they can just about pull off). In conventional warfare, even with inevitable major fuck-ups we could kick Irans ass sideways. Where we usually fail is what to do when its time to stop killing but with any luck well do something majorly insulting and theyll fight to the last man. I hardly think well give a damn about innocent Iraqis if it turns into a regional conflict, theyre on their own.
Nukes are useless, you cant use them unless youre so damn tough that you have no fear that your victims couldnt possibly retaliate in kind or that you target is so small that theyd all be wiped out in which case why bother? I dont really care if Iran gets nukes now Im looking forward to sanctioning them anyway. Let them starve warm and well lit, let them nuke their own back yard to prove they mean business about being crazy nut balls youd be better off not doing business with. What are they going to do, nuke us? Too bad Korea will probably have beaten them to it.
Weiser i cant agree your assesment that we can kick Irans ass easily,they have a fairly modern military and our military expendatures in Iraq have weakened our military,add high oil prices which would certainly happen it would be a tough bloody war but i think we could win it.
Im sleepy so Id better stop now.
if we go to war with iran in addition to iraq, waste that money, and american life all over again like we have been for teh past 5 years, i dont know about you but i would definately get involved with impeeching him.
but yeah, you guys have to remember they have no idea what they are doing either. they are doing the best they have been trained to do, regardless how much failure is involved, no one had any idea it would end up like this and it's not some twisted plan. it's just old men fighting for money and PR. I have lost faith in government, and am infact moving out to the midwest, i find 'fear of coastal attack' to the be 3rd largest reason i'm moving.
you are right, it's comming but not as fast as you think. Iran may be trying to hide what they are doing. they may be acting defensively because of our actions towards Iraq. On a more apathetic note. There are enough Nukes built to destroy the entire surface of the planet about 30 times over. you would only need 1 or 2 to throw an entire country out of whack and into chaos. just be prepared, the human race kinda has to face thier complete lack of involvement in world affairs even if it means surviving a holocaust again. dont take life for granted, if it gets bad, and you are fearfull, act on it.
would any of you non-US polycounters mind putting some of us up for board? i would vice versa.
I've noticed recently, and from listening to NPR, that the Bush administration is beginning to set a different tone. It's a sign they realize they're nearing the end of the line. Going out on a bad note would secure a spot in the history books. It seems the public has opened it's eyes to politics and I hope the next Prez does something great for us and represents a new voice of America to the world.
The reason immigration is being discussed more is all this about Iraq has already been said. We can only wait for everyone to say it so change can begin.
I'm definitely against going into Iran. That should have been the target rather than Iraq... not that we should be doing either. Bush pissed off a lot of countries by calling them part of the axis of evil, so now we have more threats than ever before. Iran didn't like us before, but now they want to take us out. Bush should have just gone to Afghanistan and left it at that.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4894766.stm
YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS SO WE ARE GOING TO ATTACK YOU WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS > : (
really, the iranian government is batshit insane. so is pretty much every other government. i'm all for military isolationism, we should put defenses in israel (only because they are an ally) that would be able to divert a nuclear attack from iran. say we attack iran and accidentally miss one or two missiles, so they use them on us instead of israel.
bah, overseas wars are wank when you arent protecting something. im even against a standing military.
really, the iranian government is batshit insane.
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Amen. It's like that whole area is festering with uneducated medieval warlords. Bush has the right idea that they need new government, but I think education would be enough. Enough educated civilians would at least put mroe power into thier hands about how unfairly they are being treated, and allow them to elect better officials.
Detecting radioactive material via sat. is fairly easy. We have systems at work here built to detect a single miligram of material from typical airport style walkthroughs. If Iran does ever built these things, I doubt we would have any problem taking them out.
The problem is if they do manage to send them our way, I have no faith in our current missile defense capabilities. Take my experience to heart. I can't really say more.
Ive read that lovely little post by Ninja and all the little Xenohpic fun, but frankly everyone is too involved in this issue,albiet an important issue there is a more pressing issue at hand,that is Iran.
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Indeed, we must learn to properly focus the great political influence of...a 3d art site.
You guys are classic. Do you just like getting outraged over political shit or do you actually expect people here to do something about this? Or are you deluded enough to believe in the most asinine form of 'activism,' the stupidly pointless 'raising awareness'?
Frank the Avenger
Frankly, Frank. People like you are the reason why nothing is ever done about extreme political failures. And odly enough, if you want this to stop, get involved with stopping the source. It may not directly affect you, but it does affect some of us. I work for DOD, so it's very prevalant in my life. And I'd rather talk about it here with people I can relate to, and that I trust will avoid a flame war.
I think the Iran issue is important, but if Bush launches a strike on Iran it will result in Iran retaliating against Israel with their new missles. I think if something like that went down, Bush would end his term in prison -- because there is no support for any action at this point. Iran nukes are 5 years away at the minimum.
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I actually think Iran's startegy is to refine uranium for power plants, not make any weapons, and yet act in a suspicious way so that the US attacks them. Then it justifies (at least to the arab world) a retalitory attack on Israel, and helps unify the middle east by being a convincing martyr.
I hope the opposition to Iran's craziness comes from the global community at large, and ideally with less-crazy Islamic countries supporting the resistance to Iran developing nukes.
Later portion of the article has information on how far they have to go to actually make a missile.
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Ive read that lovely little post by Ninja and all the little Xenohpic fun, but frankly everyone is too involved in this issue,albiet an important issue there is a more pressing issue at hand,that is Iran.
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Indeed, we must learn to properly focus the great political influence of...a 3d art site.
You guys are classic. Do you just like getting outraged over political shit or do you actually expect people here to do something about this? Or are you deluded enough to believe in the most asinine form of 'activism,' the stupidly pointless 'raising awareness'?
Frank the Avenger
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Frank what type of American are you?? You cant do anything so shut up? Big changes in goverment begin small,you think tons of people will suddenly get pissed off at the same time and do something.
But yeah its much easier for you to piss on people who dont agree with you.
But thankfully we live in a democracy where douchebags like you can speak freely no matter how idiotic.
If desiring not to see more of our soliders dieing needlessly is "Activisim" then yes i am an activist.
Kevin: As far as timetable goes even if its small attacks,Iran will look for payback,destablizing Iraq and Afghanistan as well as making oil prices jump up will furthur escalate the conflict even if it begins with something as small as airstrikes.
So by now the Iranian Oil Bourse will have started, where Iran has stopped trading oil in US$ and has switched to the Euro (2/3rds of their exports are to European countries).
By not trading in $s, countries do not need to keep vast stockpiles of $s. This is one ofthe reasosn the dollar has been such a strong currency for so many years.
By not needing vast stockpiles of dollars, you no longer need to take dollars as payment for goods you ship overseas. This therefore weakens the dollar, and the US economy.
See: Iraq, Venezuela.
A mess in Iraq is no reason to avoid a perhaps more necessary mess in Iran.
Iran is already destabilizing Iraq and Afghanistan, and they lose their chokehold on oil if we control it, so they don't really have anything to threaten America with.
We can't do a damn thing unless we get major backing - Russia, China, UK and anyone else willing to help. We go it alone, and we're toast.
I'm not opposed to Iran having nuclear (civilian) power. What I'm scared of, is that they're not willing to submit to routine inspections from the IAEA. They have no reason to deny the inspections, unless they're planning on refining uranium to weapon-grade status.
If we were to wage war with Iran while still in Iraq and Afghanistan - we'd lose.
We can't do a damn thing unless we get major backing - Russia, China, UK and anyone else willing to help. We go it alone, and we're toast.
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I just can't stay away from these threads, so help me...
I disagree completely. Conquering the nation of Iran can happen in a matter of weeks. It's situated exactly between Iraq and Afghanistan as it is, and there's virtually nothing they could possibly do to prevent a US invasion.
Now if you mean that the US can't successfully occupy and police the combined nations of Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan, that's a different story. That requires a whole bunch of other logistical problems, as seen in Iraq, and the US hasn't shown a deft hand in dealing with those matters yet. But simply in terms of successful military invasion? As close to a cakewalk as modern international warfare gets. Iraq had a larger and more highly acclaimed military than Iran, and they maintained organized resistance for about three weeks.
If I'm a nefariously evil US President and I want to make it happen, I arrange it so that some sort of irrefutably Iranian forces are caught with a nuclear weapon inside the United States. Heck, if it's small enough weapon and in a relatively non-critical location, maybe I let it happen 'Sum of All Fears' style. One month later, I have an international coalition and reinstated the draft. Four months after that, I own every scrap of land from Saudi Arabia to Pakistan. I think that people understimate US military power because TPTB have been fighting with one hand tied behind their backs since Vietnam. If it really came down to an us-versus-them scenario rather than a politically motivated conflict, I put the money on us.
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It's situated exactly between Iraq and Afghanistan
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good reason to feel threatened. possible strategy to surround Iran and gain back the US$ for oil.
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and there's virtually nothing they could possibly do to prevent a US invasion.
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nukes!
And if this spirals down so hard as to begin a draft...great way to rid the US of those illegal immigrants. And if they switch sides...great reason to invade Mexico. And if that fails...hello canada!!!
As for Irani missile attacks: Iraq was attacking Israel with Scud missiles for quite some time, the damage caused was not huge. Kassam missiles are regularly fired from the westbank and the gaza stripe, but as long as they are that inaccurate, there is not that much harm done. That's why I don't think this is going to prevent Israel from an airstrike and the US propably neither.
Has the whole world gone crazy?!?!
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You betcha.
Link
Vermillion, I didn't say that victory wouldn't be possible altogether. I said that if we did it alone, it would be. Our armed forces are too damn tired, worn too thin and have low moral. Iran's military is fresh, eager and proud. If we went into another war without the aid of larger nations, we would lose - simple as that.
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That simple? What are you basing this opinion on? The United States hasn't been 'toast' in any conflict in any war it's ever fought, and that's good enough for me to believe an Iranian invasion would go no differently. Iran may have pride and energy, but they're missing out on handy things like an air force and dozens of tank divisions or a national industrial infrastructure capable of producing supplies more or less at will.
Scott
While we are talking about "them" and what "they" represent, how come no one is talking about the mass genocide going on in Darfur? Ohhhh ... right, there's no oil there. Gotcha.
Iran may have pride and energy, but they're missing out on handy things like an air force and dozens of tank divisions or a national industrial infrastructure capable of producing supplies more or less at will.
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Those are all great when there are front lines. I'm guessing you missed the reports about soldiers not getting the equipment they needed, and missiles landing off target in the innocent family home next door. Oh, and the ginormous debt. ratio we're pushing that hasn't been this scale since Daddy Bush.
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Iran may have pride and energy, but they're missing out on handy things like an air force and dozens of tank divisions or a national industrial infrastructure capable of producing supplies more or less at will.
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Those are all great when there are front lines. I'm guessing you missed the reports about soldiers not getting the equipment they needed, and missiles landing off target in the innocent family home next door. Oh, and the ginormous debt. ratio we're pushing that hasn't been this scale since Daddy Bush.
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You mean I missed reports that have absolutely nothing to do with the chances of a successful invasion of Iran, which is what I was talking about? I guess I did.
Am I right in assuming you believe there will be an end to the war, and one side will be a clear winner? The way I see it, this has been several decades of conflict, we simply decided to jump in for economic reasons.
Indo-U.S. nuclear deal
You can view the trailer here: http://www.apple.com/trailers/sony/whywefight/trailer/
And the documentary itself here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1422779427989588955
For the record, AZ, your posts often come across as cliched and sterotypical as Scott's somtimes do, only from the other side of the funhouse mirror. If you want a pat on the head for being a good little liberal, maybe we can work out a tree-hugging get together this weekend. If you think that's a bit patronizing, I've got some pots and kettles here I'd like you to meet.
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Oh come on, when have any of my responses ever been nearly as canned as Mr. Ruggels response here or any other political thread for that matter. He always sounds like he is quoting Rush and/or Fox in these political threads.
Thank god you are here though, Verm to pontificate your wisdom unto us all. Please preach on, brother Verm.
If the enemy waged digital warfare on us, turning off GPS, data networks, etc - we'd be in the stone age. The United States Military is nothing without their smart weapons and gps. Without those, we're on a level playing field.
Sure Astro, we DON'T have interested in Darfur. But have you seen any nation on earth go out of it's way to help another, for reasons OTHER than to help itself? NO.
It's never happened, and never will happen. Wake up and snap out of the idealogy. You want a perfect world that doesn't exist.
It's just bothers me that you think we'll win any conflict simply because we're the US of A. If Americans carry that attitude, it's about time we lost a war...and much of our arrogance.
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Well, there's no problem then, because I don't think that! There's nothing magical about the stars and stripes that ensures victory. On the other hand, stealth bombers and cruise missiles and the 82nd Airborne and M1A1 main battle tanks give me confidence that any conventional war with the Iranian military would go America's way in extremely short order - akin to the first three weeks of the Iraqi war. Superior numbers, superior weapons. The only advantage that Iran has is akin to what Iraq has shown, an effective guerilla campaign via resistance fighters on their native terrain. But that is a problem of occupation and not of conquest.
Sixty years ago, this nation waged war in two hemispheres and across multiple theaters of battle. Those force made do with less, for a longer period of time, and were obviously effective against tougher opposition than Iran can muster. If need be (again, IF NEED BE) the United States is capable of exceeding even that level of military capacity today. Why would anyone believe otherwise?
I'm not a wlag-waving patriot by any means, but it's very clear that the American war machine outclasses everything on the planet in terms of conventional armed conflict.
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Am I right in assuming you believe there will be an end to the war, and one side will be a clear winner? The way I see it, this has been several decades of conflict, we simply decided to jump in for economic reasons.
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You mean the current situation? I think there will be an end, but not in a cut-and-dried Victory Day sort of way. There wasn't any declaration of war, so it's not even possible for us all to agree on what the terms of victory would be. Some say we've already won because Hussein's regime has been toppled (military victory). Others might argue that victory only comes if America successfully cultivates a popular democracy in Iraq (political victory). Still others think that for the puppetmasters behind the scenes, America only wants to win permanent strategic control of oil resources (economic victory).
I call the military victory complete, the political battle a stalemate that eventually ends in defeat (but is spun as a 'win' by a Democratic administration once all US troops are withdrawn) and the economic battle is a bullshit conspiracy scenario that no one can ever possibly call a victory because the oil will ALWAYS have to go through arab hands before it gets into American automobiles.