My First...
polycounter lvl 18
Hello Polycounters! I have been lurking here for a couple of years & have been too chicken to post anything up until now 
I've just completed the groundwork for my first male model & decided it would make a good first 'pimp' for you guys to critique. Any & all of your constructive criticism will be greatly appreciated
-DeathKitten =^..^=
Edit: New image below
I've just completed the groundwork for my first male model & decided it would make a good first 'pimp' for you guys to critique. Any & all of your constructive criticism will be greatly appreciated
-DeathKitten =^..^=
Edit: New image below
Replies
It certainly looks better than my first contrabutions to this board. If he's wearing pants, those better be spandex! it looks like you're modeling cowboy boots under those pants... perfect if you are lookin for that "brokeback mountain" kind of look, however I think perhaps making the pants hang off of the hips/butt and knees more rather than tight all the way down might fit better. You did address the leg's anatomy fairly well, however for this character, unless he's naked there needs to be some bagginess.
The area under the bicep and around the side of the rib cage is looking a bit flat, that should just be a simple pushing of some verts to fix it.
Your choice on the hands is a bit strange. Generally I see 1 of 3 types of hands.
1.Fully fingered hands
2.Mitten + index finger
3.Mitten hands.
your choice to include the pinky is a bit strange, unless there's a specific purpose to doing so, I would do a mitten + index, or seperate the center 2 fingers and go with a fully fingered hand. If he's a cowboy, I doubt he'd be wanting to stick his pinky out much... though he COULD throw up devil horns fairly easy!
Can you post a 3/4 angle? I think it might give us more information.
P.S.I once knew a legendary CS player named "=^..^="
As for the pants, I've based the model on bodybuilder anatomy pics & vids & have found that the accentuated thigh/butt muscles seem to negate any bagginess in those areas. Although the knees may be too fitted?
I didn't pick up on the flatness of the ribs/biceps, I'll tend to that with a few extra polys in those areas.
Thank you for the crits, keep them coming!
-DeathKitten =^..^=
re the ps. I think I may have played with =^..^= a few times... about 5 or 6 years ago?
I am currently taking courses at a union training facility but I am contemplating applying to the Think Tank Training Centre, Oxford College Game Design or AI, although I haven't quite decided what to do yet
-DeathKitten =^..^=
1. Uneven polygon distribution; exspecially at the upper torsomuscles and the butt you have used way to many polygons to describe the shape compared to other areas.
2. The backside of the upper torso is too bulky.
3. Some areas (legs,feet etc) seem 'clothed' while the rest seems naked.
4. the polygons that seem to have been put at the mouth area are too low, but don't have any real shape defining function anyways.
Overall not a bad first mesh though.
P.S.: If you happen to be female (as your user name suggests), then I find it hillarious where the unecessary polygons have been spend and on what parts of the mesh you put special focus on
This is not my first model, it is my first male model.
1. When I make female models I use the same type of poly distribution, I like the rounded areas to be... well rounded
2. Do you mean his 'incredibly well defined' lats
3. The model is infact half naked
4. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "too low", could you please elaborate? I haven't decided yet if I will make a working mouth or not, but I still have a few polys left over from my 1200 limit to play with. Maybe I will just add them to his ample bottom
-DK =^..^=
ps. I am female
i also feel that you should bring his jaw back, and his forhead forward. but thats up to you
I have rounded out his ribs & inner biceps, tweaked his pecs & shoulders a bit, & resized & de-fingered his hands
Awaiting new orders...
-DK =^..^=
i could probably use your advice on the woman im currently working on hahaha :P
I see what you mean about the chest, it was mentioned to me that they look more like deflated breasts than pecs
I didn't reference the head area much yet, I figured the body anatomy would be the most important to begin with. Once I solidify my character concept I will fix itÂ… thanks for the heads up
-DK =^..^=
Well it had to happen sometimes
Anyways... I don't think so many polys are needed to define the 'rounded' areas, or atleast the polydesity shouldn't appear to be two-fold higher in those areas.
Concerning the mouth: I guess it is just a general oddity in shape as almighty_gir showed in his overdraw already, but go ahead and fix it later if you like.
Oh and one more thing (also visible in the overdraw)... the muscles of the upper torso actually kind of continue into the shoulders, while in your mesh the shoulders and arms seem more like seperate objects glued to the torso.
Edit: or at least this should be emphasised more, as it is already kind of visible in your mesh
*Walks off and shakes head in disbelieve of this objectivication of men*
stop speaking for all of us, just cos your under sexed. :P
just cos your under sexed. :P
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Hmm you might have a point there
The shoulders are too large for such small arms, the neck muscles can be split and curved more to be less pronounced.
I would also suggest you start with Quad/Sub D modeling in higher counts to get learning on your anatomy sculping. You can always drop to realtime or low poly specs after you learn the art side.
Other than that, I really like the general feel of his legs leading up to those boots. Legs are pretty close together but still good looking.
-Re-worked the head & face structure.
-Added eyes, mouth & a belt buckle.
-Thickened his arms up.
-Raised his lats.
-Lowered the pc for his butt (-12!)
-Spread his legs
Any more crits before I map & rig him?
-DK =^..^=
Edit: new pic & text
first of all, if this is your first model, great work. there are certain areas that are pretty nice
i'll try and list as much stuff as i can.
first and foremost, the proportions are unappealing. i don't mean proportions in the human-figgure-is-8-heads-tall-says-that-loomis-reference-sheet kinda way, i mean that the each small section of the model is scaled and detailed in a very awkward, uncomfortable fashion.
i'll go through the model from the bottom up, picking out everything i can, but first, why so low poly? a lot of people will disagree with me on this, but the way i see it, it's great to make a model efficient, but if you can prove to yourself that you can do that, then just add the polies where you can. you're not going to learn how to properly model a pair of pants if you're not acctualy giving yourself the level of detail to describe those pants properly, in my opinion. model efficiently, don't add an edge untill you need it, but don't be afraid to add an edge when you do. when you're good at modeling and you decide to go look for a job, then go back and make some low poly stuff for your portfolio if you decide you want some.
the feet from the 3/4 top down view look great. from the front, however, they don't. they're compressed, thin, and don't look like anything much. the reason the 3/4 view looks better is because you've got an interesting sillohette describing the object. if you took that front view, grabbed reference of a cowboy boot, and really pushed the model so that it looked like a boot, and not a thin blob of geo, that'd do wonders. see if you can make your own observations about a boot and push this one untill it looks great. don't be a fraid to push it too far to learn
the side view of the bottom of the pants looks nice as well- it's full, and looks like there's room in there for a leg, and that they're hanging properly. the front view of the same section looks, in my opinion, quite bad- there's no definition for what's going on, the pants are clinging to the leg, it doesn't look even remotely like hanging fabric. why does the knee push in like that at the front? are these pants? they don't look like they're made out of spandex.. i THINK you're going for jeans here, but they certainly aren't hanging like jeans- they form fit the leg too strangely. speaking of which, even if the jeans WERE spandex, i'm not sure if i like the shape of the leg anyway. the sillohette of the bottom section of the leg, especialy from the front view, is borring. find some ref of a leg, find some ref of a pair of pants on a leg, and figgure out why the pants look like they do. or just cheat and copy the jean ref heh.
it would help you a lot to study a lot of reference and decide what you enjoy about each section of the human figgure. right now your model looks a lot like many models i see-- more or less anatomicaly correct, but the acctual features of the model aren't anatomicaly correct or pleasing.. i'm guessing becuase you haven't focused on what's going on on a small enough level of detail. this is the problem i have with doing low poly-- it's a lame excuise and a curse that causes beggining artists to not add the detail they need to express what's nessisary in order to get a good understanding for what's acctualy there. if you're only thinking of a leg in terms of 5 or so polys tall, then there's no way you'll get an understanding for what makes up the leg -- it's impossible. a great example is the arm. you've got some low poly geo there kinda explaining the shape, but there's no way a human upper arm looks like that . there's no bicep there, or any sort of muscle structure, it's a large, fat, bulbus sausage or something. a real bicep comes in almost under the deltoid, and comes down into a pill shape at the bottom. i found that how these muscles all fit together was something i acctualy had to learn to enjoy-- "what is this shape, what's interesting about it, and how do i arrange it next to the other muscles to make it look interesting?" what are you trying to show here with this anatomy? this is something i'm struggling with currently on my stuff too. for example, i'm working on a model where the character has these pectoral muscles that are stretched accross and connected over to the arm. i'm trying to describe this interesting tight look to the muscle; that's the interesting part about it i want to describe. either way, even if you were going for a very smooth, undefined square look, the different sections of the model, like the pants, don't support the torso because they're incredibly thin and spindly and the torso is large and bulky.
am i making sense? i dont mean to sound harsh, just detailed.
there are interesting sections of your model- the.. (lats?) on the back- those large muscles, are interesting. i dont know if i personaly like them, but i see it as personal choice. what i can say for sure is that they dont fit with the rest of the body. first of all, they dont fit with the muscles around them. if they're going to be so interesting and exadurated, it'd be so cool to fit them in with tight musculature close to them.. under the arm, for example, if you had them end in that sort of abrupt ridge that would run up the edge of the muscle in reality, if it was so defined.
anyway. there's a massive problem that we all fall into, and that is that if we start getting a result that's better than what we got before, we give up. i do it all the time. instead of worying about going to school, first give this a shot- take a model like this, sit down, compare it to the best model you've ever seen, and ask what's wrong with your model. let's say the arm is wrong, for example. get some refernece of an arm. figgure out what part is wrong. if it's the whole thing, figgure out how to re-construct it. what about arms do you like? do you like the small lumps of the deltiod and how the bicep fits into them? this is up to you, but i'd suggest you start holding your work up to the absolute highest standard you can find. if you can't self critique, and make sure that you're working up to a high standard, then quite frankly, school won't matter for shit, and i swear that's the truith (in my experience i guess). one of the major things school did for me was create a work environment where it's not okay to just throw up your hands and say "yay! i've made some progress! good enough", you've got to meet the class standard-- and in the case of a cheep school, that's sometimes much lower, methinks.
when i look back at vfs..... i think all i needed was a kick in the ass.
anyway if you want more info, or reference pictures of what i'm talking about, just ask. or if you want to call me a flamming asshole, that's fine too
good work! keep at it!
edit- i said i'd go through the rest of the model and point out problems but i guess i got off on a rant. if you'd like i can continue the rant later, but i think i may have already been pretensious enough..
i really hope this helps
I will have to mull over all of your information & I will probably end up reworking the majority of this model before I consider posting it again (I just hope my brain doesn't explode!
As for the low polycount, I have to agree with your logic... if it needs a poly, ad a poly...
Feel free to rant some more, I am here to learn
-DeathKitten =^..^=
ps. I am curious about what you feel are the strong points, or the best part/s of the model? Thanks again
you'll get much better at modeling when you switch to something else (I had to learn that the hard way after 5 years of milkshaping
-DK =^..^=
Is the best free modeling application around. Give it a go and be patient as it's workflow is quite a lot different from Milkshape's (it is about the opposite), but it is worth it.
http://www.blender.org it models great and uvs great and animates great etc etc i switched to this and i was ownage ever since. Professional crits can't really apply well to milkshape you know
other than that there's really nothing else.
P.S. I am also a female ^______^ > < \o\ \o/ /o/
I personally think the shoulders are a touch too wide. Shoulders are muscle that hangs off a bone. Shoulders normally are not all that squishie even on bluky guys. If he works his shoulders that much he would have more well defined arms. Remember that bone placement for when you start rigging, it can save you some time wasted trying to fix nas-tee deforming shoulders. (see World of Warcraft humans, dwarves, taurens when their arms go above thier shoulder height, like when jumping)
The hands look to be a bit thick.
I would also toss in an extra ring of polys for the wrists and neck, to help with twisting.
The pecks in the front view look a bit like pancakes. I would pull the bottom ring/loop down a bit to smooth them out a touch.
I say these things to build you as a better artist, I like what I see, and its pretty good so keep up the work!
I should have a decent update to post sometime later this week or next [edit]or next, or next[/edit].
-DK =^..^=
I haven't got around to the lower body, hands or head yet & he is already up to 1959 polys
Thanks to my buddies on msn for all the crits and reference pics
...and yes, I made this gif especially for you Joe, because I know how much you love them
-DeathKitten =^..^=
[edit]bah! Ok, for those who want flats:
Scott
is this model supposed to be somewhat cartoony, or more realistic?
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Somewhat cartoony to be sure! He is quite disporportionately top heavy... just think of him as having only worked out his upper body because he thinks thats what chicks dig
-DeathKitten =^..^=
Or at least it is close enough.
But there is also
Ignoring the head, and head size, clues to proportionality are:
Arms to the side, in a properly proportioned figure, the bottom of the rib cage is even with the elbow. The groin is even with the wrist. And the middle finger comes even with the middle of the outside of the thigh. The distance between the top of the head to the belt line is often equal to the distance between the beltling and the bottoms of the feet, but not in all cases. Upper and lower legs are about equal segments. Upper and lower arms are about equal segments. (touch your right shoulder with your right hand.) The distance between the bottom of the sides of the ribcage and the tops of the illiac crest on the sides of the pelvis aare about equal to the width fo the subject's palm, minus the thumb. Feet are often equal to the distance from the inside of the elbow to the wrist.
if the metrics of a character conform to this, even if distorted by extreme shortness (Chibi) or tallness, then the character will look proportional and read as "normal" Deviations from this will read as alien or weirdly stylized, and pronounced asymetry will read as deformed, abnormal, or evil.
Hope this helps.
Scott
JK, how do you use those ones?
-DeathKitten =^..^=
-DeathKitten =^..^=
You are a girl and thus this deserves a reply!
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So, is there a reason that he has a bare torso and trousers? It's Chuck Norris isn't it?
Scott
Thanks for all the help and support, you guys are awesome
The 2 512x512 uvs are shown together.
... and now on to texturing!
-DeathKitten =^..^=
Loving the chops, I still think that's just awesome.
Can't wait to see the texture.
Scott
Johny, thank you!
Do you have any suggestions for ways I could minimize the seams? I am planning on doing a fair bit of mirroring and I figured the seams for his pant would go right along with the... seams on his pants
Thank you Scott, without your tips he would have been an absolute anatomical disaster!
-DeathKitten =^..^=
For the seams... try to combine the backs and fronts of things so as to have 1 seam instead of two, and mirror parts that you can. So if both his pant legs are they same, mirror half over, and attatch the front to the back. Typically it'll cause more distortion but seams are far worse than distortion. Same goes for the body, etc...
Although if you know there will be a seam on the texture running a seam on the uv's in the same place is a good idea as well.
Oh, and I don't know if your 3d package uses it, but cylindrical map is a great tool for this. Makes it nice and easy to get your whole uv shell stuck together with one seam where you want it. I'm guessing most UV packages have it, I just found out about how useful it is recently though (teachers and friends ranting to me about it).