Ok, I got some real bad reviews, now what?
polycounter lvl 18
This may sound like a whining rant, but I'm legitimately looking for a little advice here.
Since this is the place that sank my ship, I thought it the best place to ask for a life preserver.
After a couple of years of visiting Polycount, I finally sucked up the guts to ask for a c&c here the other day, and it didn't go very well. Now I cannot say I'm surprised about my 3d being panned, I knew I wasn't really very good yet. I have only been at it a few years, I have never been solely focused on it, and I have not kept up with the times at all. (I still box model everything)
My confusion is this, I had hoped the fact that I was a good traditional artist and a very well rounded tech guy would overshadow my lack of 3d skills, and it hasn't. I even specifically chose a school that would give me more then just 3d, because I was not sure I wanted that specialized of a degree. But now it appears that all I gained was a rudimentary knowledge of about 10 different tech arts, and no specific ability in any of them.
Not only that, but it appears that I am not quite the traditional artist I thought I was either. Again, I certainly did not consider myself Da Vinci, but I have been obsessed with art since I was a kid, and I legitimately thought I was better then anyone I personally know.
During my critique, several people mentioned how shoddy my 2d was, and it was even brought up that I seemed more like a tech guy with some applications then a guy with any artistic ability/talents.
I'm glad this all happened, and it really opened my eyes, but now I'm kinda wandering aimlessly trying to figure out where to go from here. It is amazing how the foundation of my life could be shaken so dramatically by the words of a half dozen strangers on a web forum, but it absolutely has.
I originally got into this because I loved traditional special effects, and digital effects seemed to be the next step for me. (I spent years creating latex stuff in my parents garage.) But after years of practice, a wasted degree, and an apparent lack of talent/ability I just do not know where to go from here.
I was never sure exactly where my talents were, but I loved so many aspects of 3d I assumed I would figure that out later. I thought if I just kept playing around it would become clear if I was better at textures, animation, or whatever, but it has not.
If Im not particularly good at any of them, I just dont know what to focus my time on trying to get better at. Nobody said to me, your textures suck, but your animation is good, or your models arent bad, go with that. Everyone just seemed to dislike everything about my work altogether. So what do I do now?
Since this is the place that sank my ship, I thought it the best place to ask for a life preserver.
After a couple of years of visiting Polycount, I finally sucked up the guts to ask for a c&c here the other day, and it didn't go very well. Now I cannot say I'm surprised about my 3d being panned, I knew I wasn't really very good yet. I have only been at it a few years, I have never been solely focused on it, and I have not kept up with the times at all. (I still box model everything)
My confusion is this, I had hoped the fact that I was a good traditional artist and a very well rounded tech guy would overshadow my lack of 3d skills, and it hasn't. I even specifically chose a school that would give me more then just 3d, because I was not sure I wanted that specialized of a degree. But now it appears that all I gained was a rudimentary knowledge of about 10 different tech arts, and no specific ability in any of them.
Not only that, but it appears that I am not quite the traditional artist I thought I was either. Again, I certainly did not consider myself Da Vinci, but I have been obsessed with art since I was a kid, and I legitimately thought I was better then anyone I personally know.
During my critique, several people mentioned how shoddy my 2d was, and it was even brought up that I seemed more like a tech guy with some applications then a guy with any artistic ability/talents.
I'm glad this all happened, and it really opened my eyes, but now I'm kinda wandering aimlessly trying to figure out where to go from here. It is amazing how the foundation of my life could be shaken so dramatically by the words of a half dozen strangers on a web forum, but it absolutely has.
I originally got into this because I loved traditional special effects, and digital effects seemed to be the next step for me. (I spent years creating latex stuff in my parents garage.) But after years of practice, a wasted degree, and an apparent lack of talent/ability I just do not know where to go from here.
I was never sure exactly where my talents were, but I loved so many aspects of 3d I assumed I would figure that out later. I thought if I just kept playing around it would become clear if I was better at textures, animation, or whatever, but it has not.
If Im not particularly good at any of them, I just dont know what to focus my time on trying to get better at. Nobody said to me, your textures suck, but your animation is good, or your models arent bad, go with that. Everyone just seemed to dislike everything about my work altogether. So what do I do now?
Replies
First: Don't get discouraged. It's all learning.
Second: Practice and get better. Watch and listen to the advice others give.
Third: Try to find classes that can help you improve the areas you need. In example, I am taking some anatomy courses to help me outside a degree program.
Fourth: Find like minded individuals locally. They will help you keep the faith and have some inspiration. Also act as more areas for future contacts and sources of finding new methods of working.
Make art
Show art
Get feedback
Act on the feedback.
That's what I did, and it worked.
It really does look like you sat down for a week with a "Maya/Max fundimentals" books and did some tutorials.
Your choice of subject matter seems random & screams "coursework" not something youre passionate about.
It appears youve removed all your 2d work from the site, so I cannot comment on that.
Dont get discouraged. I've been doing this stuff for years as well, and while I have a job as a graphic artist, it is not within the video games industry...yet.
Perseverence. We all start out "bad".
Wisdom & Skill come from experience.
Experience comes from MISTAKES. LOTS of em.
Look at the portfolios of your fellow artists around here. See what they have done. Emulate a little.
The other thing Id say is that I think youre perhaps too attached to some old work. Let it go! Theres a couple of times there that you mention stuff being like 5+ years old. The Jon model for instance that only exists in render form because of a hard drive crash long ago. Well, that model could be made again in about 2 hours or so! Stuff like that makes it seem like you haven't put much effort into honing your 3D skills. Nothing there seems like it really took very long to make. It all feels a bit lazy sorry. You really can't expect models of batteries and toothpaste to land you a gig, when that stuff can be made in under an hour! Who knows, maybe 3D just isn't your thang? Maybe it's 2D, or compositing. You need to figure that out. Hope Im not coming across as too blunt. Good luck!
Make art
Show art
Get feedback
Act on the feedback.
This has to be your day by day.
good luck!
Your work isn't good enough. I would remove everything in the 2d and 3d sections and replace them with new content as you go.
The 2d isn't good enough, most of it seems very basic, and you don't show that you have a firm grasp of either anatomy or perspective. The virusman concept is definatly your best work, a fullbody character with a clear idea thought out. The translation into 3d wasn't as succesfull but it's a start. You need more concept art, prefearably full character sheets if you to do characters.
http://www.autodestruct.com/concept.htm has some extremly good stuff.
The 3d is also basic, little to no texture work, models that will have problems with deformation and poor meshflow. You need to study more ingame assets if that is what you want to do, check the forums and get unpackers for different formats.
Most of your work seems, going on your descriptions, to be 2-5 old and it is going to hurt you if you can't show new and improved work.
Check out Z-Brush or a similar program, it is a great way to be inspired by mixing 2d and 3d. Learn the whole workflow for maybe Doom3 or HL2 and show of a finished, ingame character. This would show what you are able of today.
To recap:
Remove and improve. And like Daz said, you should continue searching for your passion, it is such a driving force when you have found it.
2) We give crits not to hurt you personally but to build you up as a better artist. If you are posting to get those feel good comments take it to mom she always has nice things to say. (except for mine but thats neither here nor there)
3) If you are the type to crumble because someone said "this is good but you could do this, this and this to make it better" then maybe the games industry or profesional art isn't for you? Most of the time that is exactly what you will hear from your Art Director, some of them are nice, some of them use words as daggers. Get ready for it because what you hear from polycounters is often from people who hear that stuff all day long from thier art directors.
4) You say you know your stuff wasn't that hot but wanted technical skill and taditional art to shine thru? I haven't seen your stuff and I can't comment on the thread you posted but it sounds like a cop out. It sounds like you are saying "like my art because I'm a nice guy". People don't know you and can't base thier opinion about your art on your personality. They base it on what you are showing. If it stinks, I'm sorry then it stinks. Suck it up, take thier advice and make better art next time.
5) This may sound harsh but I am guessing you are one of those artists that has always had everyone fawn over your art and never give you any helpful crits to make it better? Polycount is mostly about doing just that, making you a better artist. There are plenty of art forums where people don't care about you as an artist and post fan-boi comments until the moon turns blue. While its great to hear nice things, it rarely makes you a better artist. Whats worse is if you need help people don't have the balls to tell you and they don't post, so in both cases you get screwed because no one tells you how to get better.
Someone who doesn't care, will post a nice comment even if they really don't think that much about what they are seeing. A true friend will rip your art apart and tell you how to make it better. So ask yourself why are you posting?
To suround yourself with phonies who blow smoke up your ass and never advance in your artistic tallent?
or
To suround yourself with family of artist who want to see you do better and will challange you to work harder, smarter and faster?
I know I have polycount to thank for the HUGE advancements in my skills.I had to frist swallow my ego and take the crits not to heart but to my head, and use them. Hopefully you can see polycount (and the crits) for what they are, and learn from them.
we are here to help not to serve.
It really is all about the passion, and creating a personality as an artist. Nothing you have shown says what that is yet. Everyone was there once though, it's where you go from here that counts. Don't just sit at point 'A' because there are obstacles and efforts to get to point 'B'. Trust me, once you get to 'B' and look around, you'll know it was worth putting the effort into, even if it does'nt take you anywhere, you can still count the accomplishment. Point 'B' also always changes, and your going to have to refocus yourself over and over again until you refine what you really want.
I can tell you personally I started out in the same boat. I had been painting and sketching since I was able to hold a brush. I was fairly good at it through highschool, and had a passion for game development. Due to, well, lets just say bad events, I missed my boat to go to college and nurture the passion and practice in an environment where I could focus. Don't take what you have for granted yet. Life kept drilling me over and over (and still does), and my point 'B' completely changed. I have never wanted to be anything but a game developer, no fireman, no cop, no superman, just to make games. But here I sit, as a computer engineer for the government, unhappy as hell and reminded everyday about my previous passions for the work. I still dabble once in a blue moon, and even tried to startup a game prototype project again with a decent amount of funding. All bombed, because I lacked the passion in my life. I sat and took crap from everything and did'nt fight. Crits and depression about realistic things can bring you down true, and may put you in your place, but at least you know where you are now enough to pick a direction and know what you have to do.
I'm miserable. YOU on the other hand, just lack a little focus. Don't be so hard on yourself. You have the right drive, and the tech background, it's just time to start making what you want happen. And it's not out of your reach.
Honestly you have a long way to go. Nothing on your website would warrant consideration as a portfolio piece. I know this sounds harsh but you have a lot more exploring to do and at 30 your skill as an artist should be a lot further. Looking at your art I thought your age was around 13.
Im not saying to completely give up on art. You should always follow your passion. Im just saying you might want to consider relaxing a bit and keep art as a hobby for a while. Dont put your life on hold for something that might not happen for you for a long time. Just keep working in your spare time and maybe youll turn a corner. Right now I just dont see a career in art for you.
- BoBo
And if its what you really want from life,then work,work,work and dont let people take you down,just like daz it took me to my mid 20's but it makes all those late nights working at home well worth it.
As for crits use the good helpful crits and disregard the shit on you comments.
Feel free to PM me if you want more info, be glad to help.
-The artist's path starts as a child, and you like art so you draw a lot.
-As you get older, you are better at drawing than your friends and that gets you attention, so you draw more.
-You get to be the best person around, and you think you are pretty hot stuff. I myself have said things at this point like "I don't see how I can get any better", and "I'm the best I know"
-You decide to enter the big world of professional art. In the case of game art, the bar is set very high, and the top dogs are very skillful artists. You go from being one of the best to being one of the worst in your new larger pond.
-This is your chance to buck up and show people what you can do, or move on and do something else. what matters here is passion, not your current skill level.
-If you decide to continue, you go into training. You try harder to get better. It takes some years but you will get better. During this time you will have your work shat on on a regular basis (because you will be posting it up somewhere) until you become immune to it. This is the mark of a pro.
Good Luck! Bobo crapped hard on some of my stuff years ago, but I'm much better now.
You have some good advice here; I totally agree with Ninjas, I take what he said very seriously.
Ror taught me something very valuable when I was looking for work.
Don't try and be great at everything....if you are not a great concept artist you shouldn't be designing your portfolio pieces.
I followed his directions exactly and I was able to make a new portfolio that was:
-made rather quickly
-focused on my skills and strengths
-leveraged against the great concepts by other artists
-eye grabbing and pertainent
Another thing. you have some pieces of your site that are boreing, like batteries and toothbrushes. That's not exciting man. Choose your portfolio pieces wisely, this is my criteria:
Model:
-subject has to be exciting
-the geometry has to be interesting without a texture
-silouette needs to be descriptive enough without the texture that you can tell what it is at most prominent angles.
Textures:
-Textures should have a strong color scheme. Using contrasting colors or tertiary colors is always a safe bet
-Try to do a alternate spacing of color in your composition. what i mean is; have an area of focus and then a rest for the eye and then another area of focus, like this:
http://www.joshnizzi.com/images/JN-Awakening4.JPG
Keep the color comp simple at first.
-use the full range of values each color has to offer. If you are going to use a red, make sure you use that red very dark and rather light. use the full range of dark to light in a texture. tyour textures are rather poserized, and it looks bad.
GL! Don't worry about what anyone thinks you are capable of...only you know. For what it's worth, I think you can do it
-R
I'm going to try and resist writing a novel on here, so I'll just respond to a couple of things.
First, I never came looking for praise. I knew I would get critiqued, that was the point. I have been working in web design for years, so I have been told by bosses before, "that sucks, start over". It's part of any design related job, I accept that.
I was looking for constructive critisisms that would help we steer myself in one particular direction, and the directions I got seemed to be saying, just get off the track all together.
Now don't get me wrong, I do love this medium, and I have no intentions on quitting regardless of what anyone says.
The very first thing I did when I finished reading my critiques was open Max and start modeling again. It was probobly one of the first times since I graduated last year, and I realize that is a huge part of the problem.
Between A full time job, an internship, a wife, and a nasty gaming habit, I just did not make enough time to get any better.
I guess I assumed I would land that entry level job somewhere and get paid to get better, which is obviously very unrealistic.
scanning_factor - I hear you, and I can appreciate what your saying, but I have done that already in my web career.
I realized a while ago I was not good enough at the design end, so I stopped creating comps, and started working on the coding/scripting side. I don't want to do that with 3D. As of now, I still want the sexy art job, but I appreciate the offer, and if I don't get this figured out soon you may be seeing that PM after all.
Ninjas - Man did you hit the proverbial nail. That is basically it. Every idiot around me has been telling me for so long that I was good that I stopped considering the sources and started to believe it.
Everybody else, you're all right about one thing, I have certainly not been trying hard enough. Im going to start remedying that situation immediately.
I cannot say this thread has really answered my questions on what to do, but then I don't suppose it really could.
Thanks for your time everyone, you will be seeing me again.
Slightly OT, but downsizer.. Why can't you go to school now (like Digipen or something)? Whats stopping you?
Sometimes you see a model/skin that makes your jaw drop, a good exercise is to completely try to copy that model, so you get a better understanding of the techniques and tricks the original author uses.(ps: I dont know if this would work for anyone else, but it really helped me)
[/ QUOTE ]
This would only help someone if they the principles of what they were copying. And for me, When I'd try to copy one of Dark horizons skins, it really got me know where, I didn't understand the 'why's of his skins.
What brought me the most improvement is getting ivolved with theory, and books upon the subject. Loose papers studys.
I spent too long trying to make something look nice withought knowing how to, very frustrating feeling.
So my suggestion is to know the attributes of what you're drawing inside and out(anatomy, lighting, composition ect ect.)
And lastly, I have no experience in the industry, so I may eat my words
Enjoy your stay here.
If anyone around here is telling you that you need to stop modelling altogether, ignore them. Comments like those usually come from newbs who just want to be cruel. Anyone with an iota of professionalism (or common decency) won't go that far. For many around here, this is a hobby, not a livelihood. And if you aren't paying the bills with your 3D modeling, than you can afford to take your time refining your skills.
Here's a good tip for asking for criticism. Before you post a model, take a good hard look at it yourself. Don't think about all of the parts of it you like, and don't take pride in your effort. Mentally strip it down to its most basic elements. And then decide where you screwed up. Look for anything that could even be considered an error. Then post your model and ask for a critique. When people comment on it, look for comments that match the criticisms you already came up with. It will better prepare you to accept and act on the criticism. It is also a good exercise that will help you to better read your own models, and will help to teach you some of the better techniques.
When I first came here (years and years ago) I learned a great number of helpful techniques that I would have never found in any tutorial or book. Praise doesn't teach you anything, it just confirms what you already knew. Don't expect to recieve any at the beginning. Look at each critical comment as potentially valuable feedback that you can use to improve your work.