Ground Zero: WIP post-apocalyptic RPG
polycounter lvl 17
Hello everybody,
I've been lurking on this board for a little while here, and thought I would finally make an offering to the art critique gods
I'm managing a total conversion for Doom 3 inspired by the Fallout series of CRPGs. We have a variety of student and professional artists who have contributed work, which along with a progression of in-game screenshots can be seen here in our Gallery. We plan on making periodical releases over the year beginning next week with an early combat system prototype. We would love to get feedback from any Doom 3 users out there!
(screenshots showing use of a "3d tileset" in development. These buildings are created from configurations of about nine 10x10ft wall sections, which because of Doom 3's lighting and pathfinding can changed on-the-fly)
Some more info at the Ground Zero mod homepage
Be well,
Jonathan Lamb
I've been lurking on this board for a little while here, and thought I would finally make an offering to the art critique gods
I'm managing a total conversion for Doom 3 inspired by the Fallout series of CRPGs. We have a variety of student and professional artists who have contributed work, which along with a progression of in-game screenshots can be seen here in our Gallery. We plan on making periodical releases over the year beginning next week with an early combat system prototype. We would love to get feedback from any Doom 3 users out there!
(screenshots showing use of a "3d tileset" in development. These buildings are created from configurations of about nine 10x10ft wall sections, which because of Doom 3's lighting and pathfinding can changed on-the-fly)
Some more info at the Ground Zero mod homepage
Be well,
Jonathan Lamb
Replies
First of all I'd like to say that it looks to be developing nicely. It looks like you've done some tweaks to the rendering/lighting levels, because the November 05 shots look good... is that some sort of softened post processing effect going on there? It doesn't look as harsh as a typical Doom 3 level. I know there have been modders who have fiddled around with that sort of thing, so I'm curious as to the changes your team has made.
Other than that, the concept art is fairly decent; the environment concepts are probably the strongest.
My big critique for the work and the project as a whole at this point is that I'm really not seeing any evidence of a game design or visual design much past what you described it as; Fallout inspired. You look at these images and say, "yes, these are Fallout-inspired," but beyond that there's not a whole lot going on.
I think the project would benefit greatly from a more conscious focus for the design, both in gameplay and the visual design. You could have a certain, striking visual element, or a story element you want to bring out... or, as is often the best approach, conceive of a novel gameplay iteration and situate the design relative to that.
What do I mean? Well here we've got a fairly undifferentiated post apocalyptic setting. You mention on the site that you and your team find the potential of the setting rather provocative... but what's provocative here? What was the apocalypse in question? Hopefully not just another nuclear war. Maybe there was widespread use of neutron bombs, leaving thousands of ghost towns across the country to slowly decay. Maybe there's something wrong with the atmosphere now, making all survivors need protective gear on the surface as well as giving the sky/lighting a very striking cast. Or maybe in the post apocalyptic America there are armored scavengers that do battle in semi-destructible environments... I'm just rambling here, but the point is that the project will likely flounder if you don't have some sort of clear design goals. It's good that you're working on a combat system prototype; hopefully that will help provide focus going forward from this point.
My immediate feeling is that you don't really have anything worth showing, brutal but true. I'm not trying to be cruel, I myself ran a mod for two years on just conepts and maps, then in the third year we actually got down to getting a stable release together. Then our programmers left in a puff of smoke and it was all gone!
These days you need to act fast. There are so many mods and games now that its very hard to keep track.
My advice would be to get some models out, quick. Ditch all but 3 or 4 pieces of your concept art that you show on the site, and place them site by side with the models. After all, no one gives a flying fuck about your crummy drawings of houses or cars, those images are for someone to model from, and putting them online is a weak obvious "we have nothing to show" move.
Also it's best to be vague about your game until you release the beta. Don't promise anything online, because you will have to live upto it.
In short, the art is ok but has practially no meaning on your site without models to back it up.
What else? Do you code? That's the minimum a leader MUST be capable of.
I do suggest keeping on it, so that it does'nt disband as that is the major reason why mods are looked down upon, and i suppose I can understand hawkens comments to a point. but i think it's good to encourage projects that actually have more than a 7 year olds rambling writing to go on.
good luck to you and the team.
and i give a fuck about the houses and cars. how else would you showcase the game world? and the concept typically has more meaning than a model, most models never live up to concept, so it's best to show both in my very humble opinion.
also bloodlines was an RPG on the HL2 engine, and it turned out better than hl2.. so i dont see this as being impossible.
First of all, we discovered the IE bug just after posting the site and are working to resolve it. In the mean time, just consider it a silly excuse to show your friends and family the light of non-MS browsers
That said, there are definately a few points I need to communicate on the website which I totally blanked on being absent... intended to be mentioned on the under-construction sections but should be more upfront anyway (I don't mean this as sounding defensive, more as criteria for what I *want* to see identified by visiting the website):
1. We are still in a proof-of-concept stage, constructing one small game location as a means of learning the Doom 3 editing tools, formulating a unique visual style, starting an asset library of code/graphic/audio, and estblishing the production process. The knowledge and assets we develop for this prototype will act as a foundation for the complete product.
2. We have all in all about 100 pages of design documention written, which I am in the process of distilling into a digestable HTML document for public browsing. A considerable amount of our efforts so far have been devoted to thoroughly planning and implementing back-end core game mechanics, without which we REALLY have nothing. I see dozens of ambitious conversion come and go that never amount to more than a weapons mod and skin pack, which is a trend I'm desperately trying to steer clear of. I was honestly wanting to even avoid the combat system as a focus of our first release since I am much more excited about the world interactions, but hey... people love shooting stuff.
3. The next step in documentation is the development of a style guide/art book that firmly sets the game's aesthetic. Our main environmental artists are on hiatus at the moment, for military service and other Real Life(tm) obligations, so we've been concentrating on technical features. We do have an aesthetic set on-paper, but that hardly does us any good now does it
4. I'm including work from various stages (including the "crummy" ones) because I'm fascinated by process and hope that some other people will find it "interesing" to see, or more likely take heart in
5. The setting is not terribly unique on paper; we are paying homage to Fallout through a similar future-of-the-50's alternate timeline following nuclear war. Part of our motivation for this decision is an opportunity to explore the paranoia, naivete, propoganda, etc., which were so prominant in that period. The alternate future provides a great degree of creative freedom with specifics, while the subject matter remains very pertinent (especially with today's political atmosphere).
What is more unique is setting the RPG inside a transperent strategy game played out between three primary factions with conflicting ideas on how to re-found civilization. The differences largely come down to how technology and knowledge should be used (or not used) in human culture, with tangential themes on the ethics of violence and survivalism, individualism vs. community, and value of life. By playing an individual within the context of a global struggle that will always "play out" differently, the player will be confronted with numerous, unique decisions.
The challenge is constructing a framework from which meaningful decisions like this emerge, and hopefully the design document will explain some of this (and demonstrate that it's feasible).
6. Good thoughts on showing concept art with models. I'll be sure to show the results alongside the designs, ditto for the mapping. I would like to display related elements together, partially to show how the team members have worked off each other.
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is that some sort of softened post processing effect going on there? It doesn't look as harsh as a typical Doom 3 level.
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Those shots were taken running a Bloom shader written by "use_less" at www.doom3world.org, which itself was based on a shader by SantaClaws of the same forum. I'm overblowing the light levels at map creation, using this bloom shader, and then scaling down the light levels to give it an interesting washed-out look. Trying to keep it subtle, just enough to blend out the shadows and surface shading a bit.
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What else? Do you code? That's the minimum a leader MUST be capable of.
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I'm currently manager, lead designer, sound effects engineer, contributing musician, interface designer, mapper, and fill in with scripting, modelling, and texturing as necessary. With a team that fluctuates constantly since everyone is either in college or starting professional jobs, I'm trying to keep the ball rolling in all departments. But I think any project manager could assure you that such a job alone is more than enough for one person
Again many thanks for the compliments and crits. I'll get around to a content overhaul on the site which will hopefully address some of these issues. *pant pant pant*
other than that it's heartening to see that you've got some good plans and some very interesting themes established to explore, but it calls to mind an article from Game Development magazine written by someone at Valve, talking about what they had learned from making HL2: get gameplay prototyped as soon as possible. Something that seems conceptually fun in actuality might not work at all.
but i'll trust that you have that in hand... oh, and again, let's see those shots bigger the next time you get a few
@KDR_11k : I was never able to code and I managed to get Brainbread and Public-Enemy done (I was one of 3 "managers"). There is no such thing as a minimum or any defined standarts. I agree that it's a huge plus though.
And didn't ID release any doom3 sdk? They usualy contain enough code to add new features.
I'm managing a total conversion for Doom 3 inspired by the Fallout series of CRPGs.
What else? Do you code? That's the minimum a leader MUST be capable of.
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HELLO!!! Poor management gets most mods killed, if he is a good manager then he should just MANAGE it.
For you it might sound weird but it takes time and skill to get people to join and to coordinate the stuff they do.
BTW the random map generation sounds great!
...also seems a bit daft to use an FPS engine to make an RPG.
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What!
other than that it's heartening to see that you've got some good plans and some very interesting themes established to explore, but it calls to mind an article from Game Development magazine written by someone at Valve, talking about what they had learned from making HL2: get gameplay prototyped as soon as possible. Something that seems conceptually fun in actuality might not work at all.
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Absolutely! Which is why I want to make frequent public playtests that gradually include new features. Some of the more complex elements (such as this strategy game) are being drafted "on paper" first (to be played like a board game) and then in software before attempting to integrate it with Doom 3. I'm a big believer in rapid prototyping.
And I'm putting together the next batch of screenies this week, which I'll be sure to include larger versions of since there'll at least be a little bit more to see
That's the minimum a leader MUST be capable of.
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My boss doesn't code, and I'd be pissed if he did cuz he has the daunting task of 'managing' all of us. managing is a huge responsibility...huge.
-R
Are you making a documentary or a mod?
I enjoyed reading your post, really sounds like you have some solid work going on and I know how exciting it is to be making a mod and doing all the documents etc.
My main point is this: only put your best online, have some sort of quality control. You may think 400 pictures of sheds are all the best, but it's not. They are your sheds and you love em. However most people are only going to look at 3 or 4 of your sheds, so just display the best 3 or 4 that completely describe your shed simulator the best.
KDR_11k:
most mods are started by coders, however I'm another of these who can't code, and our mod ran for 3 years with lot of interest. Actually, if anything, at the end of the day it was the coders who let us down.
Fordy:
Deus Ex stole some ideas directly from my mod, from that we actually took down the design notes from the website. I won't go into how I know, but it miffed us all the same.
oh, and again, let's see those shots bigger the next time you get a few
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Ask and ye shall recieve. Little update with a few new models. Guy doing the wall sections has been a great help, but got real busy all of a sudden so I filled in to do a couple damaged pieces and trim. Been ages since I touched a real 3D package myself
Still quite sparse, the whole thing here is made from about 6 or 7 wall "tiles" and a handful of decos. We need to put together more pieces of roof-line facade, cornerstones, doors
more: http://www.groundzeromod.net/ingame.html
I'd say you need to seperate yourselves from Fallout, particularly now to avoid a Cease & Desist letter.
From what I understand 1 or 2 Fallout games are actually in development right now, which makes this all the more likely.
It appears you're even using Action Points, which is directly from Fallout. Big mistake.
Cool if you can manage to get the same level of detail that Brotherhood of Steel had in its levels. And if you can pull off the blend between RPG and RTS/turnbased that I think that last game had, you could very well have a hit on your hands.
Just get the basic gameplay up and running before you put a lot of effort into the graphics.
This is a very early prototype we've released to the public. Intention is to roughly demonstrate the form of turn/action-point based combat, and introduce a few other features. We are aware of numerous bugs and glitches, but plan on releasing occasional iterations like this every couple of months.
The original developers of Fallout were suprisingly open to fan-based projects, and I've never heard of a single team doing even the most directly Fallout-derived projects recieving cease+desist letters. With how fragmented the intellectual property became, I don't even know who WOULD have. But who knows how Bethesda (who is developing Fallout 3) will react.
All that aside, other than being a post-apocalyptic setting with a heavy 1950's/dustblown/rusty metal aesthetic, there is very little taken directly from Fallout. Other than the term "action points," our turn system has as much in common with Rifts and Shadowrun as it does Fallout. We declined using the SPECIAL system, and share none of the same characters, locations, plotlines, etc. Given the original title was chock full of pop culture references and basically took place in a 50's post-catastrophe fiction book, I'd be curious on what grounds from which they could issue a C&D.
Anyway, we really value the feedback, and are actually going back to revise a more coherent and uniform visual style. If there's a lack of graphic flare right now however, it's because we are concerning ourselves with the gameplay mechanics and experience framework.
Cheers, and have fun if you've got Doom 3
In any case, are you going to be incorperating themes from Mad Max and Wasteland as well? It'd be nice to see something that incorperated more than one Post Apoc source, as well as had its own unique qualities.
Regardless, there is currently very little in common with Fallout. Different universe, story, mechanics, etc. Any mechanics we we share are common to many games. Of course I'd like to pay homage to Fallout and many other PA works(though it was that game that got me into the subject); Mad Max and Wasteland for sure; A Canticle for Leibowitz, Dr. Strangelove for its sense of humor, Dr. Bloodmoney (unrelated Phillip K Dick book), Six String Samurai, Atomic Cafe, a Boy And His Dog, etc. http://www.pamedia.com/ is a nifty reference for the genre.