A Cry For Help

Zcubed

Hey guys, I'm not sure if this sort of thing merits its own thread, but I thought I'd give it a shot. Here's the deal, I've been modeling for just about a year now and I'd like to get better at it. I picked up the UT 2004 that came with 3d Buzz's VTMS, and I've been quite interested in the game production pipeline ever since. It's really just a hobby at this point, and improvement has come quite slowly with school eating up the majority of my day. Still, I find I have a little more time lately and I've been sneaking in modeling sessions when I can.

Anyways, I don't seem to be getting better very quickly. I'm certainly lacking in practice and experience, but maybe I'm just going about certain things incorrectly. I realize that there is no quick way to become an artist, and that I might just be too impatient, but maybe getting some polycounters to make fun of me might speed the process.

As far as software goes, I've probably jumped around far too much. I've tried the learning editions of most major packages (Maya PLE, Gmax, Silo LE, and XSI Mod Tool) and I've played around with Wings and Blender as well. I seem to work best in Wings, which is what I've been using for a while now, but I'm trying to pick up XSI as well (The Mod Tool is REALLY nice).

Too much talk, needs more pictures. Here's some of my most recent stuff. I understand that you're all busy guys who don't have the time to type up a paragraph for all the newbies who stop by, but even a few quick pointers would be nice.

Thanks.

Ruz

I think you are gtting there, just got to watch the flow of your meshes.
try taking the poly count down a bit , get the shapes right before adding more detail.
Best advice I can give is study other top artists and see how they construct their meshes

I like the top robot dude BTW

Zcubed

Thanks for the reply, Ruz. I see what you mean, too many uneeded edges. I could probably lower the density on all of them without losing too much form (Especially the Jester).

Glad you like the robot, I made him for a challenge over at 3D Total. I wasn't able to finish the texture, but here's what I ended up with (Sorry about the nasty textures, it was my first attempt at tex-painting).

ElysiumGX

For a year's worth, you're doing very well. Nice choice of software too.

Zcubed

Thanks Elysium. Wings really seems to have all the bases covered for box modeling, but I thought I would learn an animation package so that I'll have some experience in a professionally used application. XSI seems to have a very nice toolset, and the interface is very easy to navigate. The low price tag is another incentive to learn it, as FND seems to have everything that a hobbyist (And maybe even a pro) could want. I'm still just trying out the different programs, but XSI seems great.

Zcubed

Sorry for the double post, I never like to reply to myself.

I had some free time tonight, so I thought I would delve into the wild and wacky world of texturing. I've never really done any serious texture painting before, but I figured that now was as good a time as any to get started. I ran over to the "Release the Heads!" thread and grabbed a few SDK models to practice with, here's what I've got so far...



Phew, and I thought modeling was tough . I think the main problem is that the texture feels kind of flat. A friend pointed out that the shadows and wrinkles look more like paint than actual depressions in the skin.

Critiques and tips are always welcome!

Oh, and thanks to everyone who's hosting these SDKs. The chance to get straight to texture painting is much appreciated.

Zcubed

More free time tonight, here's a doodle.



Still having the same problems, but at least I'm moving a little bit faster now.

I think I'll put some ideas down on paper and try to start a new character this week. These doodles are fine for working on speed, but I should probably take the time I need to improve the QUALITY of my work.

Sage

What's up Zcubed, if you want to know the secret to becomming a good modeler, well the first is to start using reference and the second you are doing already which is practice. Over all you are doing a good job. Try to only put edges were there is detail. For example if you can define the shape of a curve with only 4 edges don't use 10. If you start making your first models say a complete character with only 800 polys you'll start to learn how to make the most out of your polys. The more polys you add to your model the harder it is to work with. I'm not sure if you have seen them or not but polycount has some very nice video tutorials
www.planetquake.com/polycount

and poop has some nice tutorials as well

www.poopinmymouth.com

Alex

ElysiumGX

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'll put some ideas down on paper and try to start a new character this week. These doodles are fine for working on speed, but I should probably take the time I need to improve the QUALITY of my work.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly what I was going to suggest. You've got the skill. Now you need some good ideas to work with.

Try using different techniques for defining the facial features, as you seem to be using the same method over and over.

Zcubed

Update time!

Sorry if it seems like I'm not paying attention to all the good advice that I'm receiving, I certainly appreciate all the comments that you guys are giving. I've been having some computer problems, and I didn't want to bump my thread without being able to show off any new work. Here's tonight's attempt, hopefully I'm getting better...



I had a hard time coming up with any original concepts of my own, but I saw <u>The Good the Bad and the Ugly</u> and decided to model Eli Wallach's character, a bandit named Tuco. Hopefully someone else will see the resemblence, as I certainly don't . This one is a real WIP, no more of those one night models!

Sage - I hear you, I'm wasting loads of geometry. As soon as I finish this model I'll take your advice and try to model something with a very limited poly budget. I've already seen most of those tutorials (Ben's site is nestled between B1ll and BoBo on my Bookmarks list ), but thank you.

Elysium - Thanks for the compliment. I tried to follow your advice and mix up the topology a little this time.

I'm having trouble nailing a more realistic looking human head. The eyes in particular just seem to look unnatural. What am I doing wrong?

ElysiumGX

Might I recommended trying a female character. That may help break you of your bad habits. Ugly blocky male heads are easy, where as feminine shapes require more observation...if you know what I mean. Use reference as a guide.

EarthQuake

Best advice i can tell you is try to start painting with hard brushes, your textures come off as very blurry right now

JKMakowka

First you have to decide if you want to make a subD model or a game model

I see a lot of good attempts at edgeflow used mainly for SubD (highpoly) models, but at the same time the detail is way to low to get nice results out of this (especially where the eyes are).

If you want to make a gamemodel, loose those round edgeloops around the mouth and eyes, as there is no way you can model a good approximation of a mouth or a eye with those 100% intact. Also forget about your all quads approach where necessary

On the other hand if you want to make a highpoly subD model all you have done so far is good, but you need to add way more detail to the shapes.

Zcubed

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Elysium - Sure thing, I'll get started on a female model as soon as I get a chance to finish this guy. I think I'm making up shapes at the moment; setting up some image planes and trying to match a realistic figure seems like a good idea.

Earthquake - You caught me, I think my brush hardness was at zero for most of that painting session. Thanks for the tip. I'll make sure to define details with a harder brush next time.

JMakowka - Sub-what?
I'm definitely shooting for realtime assets. Interest in video game production is what got me started, so I'd like to stick with it. Is the model really too dense? I could certainly collapse a few rings, but I thought my budget was realistic for today's engines. I was just checking out Skankerzero's Aeon Flux work (Great stuff! ) and Theron's face is a good deal more detailed that what I've got.

Rick Stirling

Zcubed - your budget is fine, those eye and mouth rngs and loops are perfect for todays budget. You could however try pushing them a bit more to use them to define more shape - especially the eye ones which could really defone the depth better.

you may find this useful:


Edit - I didn't create that image, it's from http://www.bunk.cistron.nl/plaatjes/poly_regions.jpg

I don't know the name of the author, but I'm sure someone does.

Zcubed

Thanks a lot for the picture, Rick. I know I've seen it somewhere before, but I forgot to toss it into the references folder. I tried to take your advice and tighten up the loops in the brow area. Here's a quick update...



Hopefully it better resembles the reference now.

Looking back on the mesh with that edgeflow diagram in hand, I see a bunch of things I should have done differently. At this point though, I think I might be better off incorporating them into my next piece rather than spending hours chopping up this one. I still have some tweaking left to do on areas such as the mouth and ear, but I'd like to get on to unwrapping and texturing relatively soon.

Thanks again for the help, everyone.

poopinmymouth

These definately look like you are having fun, which I think is highly valuable. I think you might want to introduce some focus to your work. Right now you can clearly use the software, you have a decent knowledge of edgeloops and model contruction, and you seem to have good motivation for moving along. I'd suggest trying some more specific exercises to improve your other more lacking areas. Don't use such a generalized reference. Find some definate orthos and try to match as closely as possible, really striving to understand those forms you are sculpting with the polys and what lies underneath them. Right now the biggest thing your models lack is subtlety. Every form is overstated and blocky. By trying to copy something real in a meticulous way, it will teach you some of those more subtle forms that occur, and you'll stack them up in your knowledge base for re use later.

Keep on plugging dude.

Zcubed

I booted up Wings tonight with the intention of finishing the face, but I got sidetracked. Right click to create a cylinder, add a few loops here, pull that one, rotate this one, connect those two verts...



What was that you were saying about focus, Poop?

Thanks for your input, I hope I don't sound like a suck-up when I say that I'm honored to have you post in my thread. I had hoped I'd be able to manage a little longer without setting up image planes and getting a working knowledge of anatomy, but I guess it's time to study up. Improvement is what this topic is all about, and it seems like doing some work from reference will help me get to the next level.

Thanks for your time, Poops. Your website has really been a great learning resource for me; I built my first character while watching your "Funge" videos.

hawken

"Bring me another Duncan Idaho!"

Zcubed

Yarr, this guy eats sandworms for breakfast.

Sorry if I'm missing out on why the quote is relevant; I read Dune two or three years ago.

John Warner

hey dude i kidna like this stuff. i think your anatomy is lacking and you should spend some more time with reference, but i think once you DO, and you start constructing that reference library in your head as to what looks right, you're gonna be really good i quite like this last one so far. it's really cool!


the seccond-to last one is a little bit wonky. his eyes are too high up, his head is kind of a big puffy jumble of form and shape, it doesn't look as though it's got a skeletal structure undernieth, the whole chin section is awkward- it's too big and round and cuts back up in the side view, instead of down -- he doesn't have a throught. check out some ref.. in general, the whole shape of the head is wrong.

Illusions

[ QUOTE ]
Yarr, this guy eats sandworms for breakfast.

Sorry if I'm missing out on why the quote is relevant; I read Dune two or three years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol...I got it, he looks like he could be Leto II after his worm transformation.

Zcubed

Ack, long time and no updates! I downloaded the Silo trial tonight, so I did a quick excersise to familiarize myself with the toolset.


No concepts or anything, I tried to keep it quick and simple without using too many triangles. I might unwrap it and give it a texture.

I promise I'll do some realistic studies soon.

Zatoichi

Wow, you pick up programs quick. It took me 5 years to get to know MAX, and I gave up and am learning Maya now. Keep it up. Just remember to try to do as much moddeling from life realistic references to push yourself. Staying in cartoon country is fine for learning the basic ropes, but if you want to be competitive, you need to learn the human form.

Zcubed

If I seem to learn packages quickly it's probably because I hardly push them to their limit. All I really ever use are the basic extrude and cut tools. Then it's just a matter of pulling points around until things look right (Wings, Silo, and XSI have an awesome Tweak tool!). Learning a full animation suite would certainly take me years, especially with such limited time to practice.

Alright then, realistic studies it is. I'll be sure to pay a visit to the big references thread this afternoon.

Zcubed

Thread resurrection!

I think it's better if I keep all my work in one place, that way we can see if I'm actually improving. I'm currently working on a war general, but I took some time today to make a low-poly model as per Ruz's advice. I'm hoping to kill two birds with one stone; working on my low poly shapes and making something new so that I can practice texturing.



The guys in the IRC channel gave me some help. After taking that picture I defined the neck a little more and beefed up the thumb to match his husky fingers. Oh, and he currently stands at 940 triangles.

Crits and comments as are welcome as ever.

Zcubed

Some unwrapping and triangle crunching/turning. After all the problems I've been having with my general, I tried to keep the number of seams on this guy to a minimum. Here's the final.

pior

Haha nice! Love the mass on these models. Could you release this as a SDK? With quads!

Zcubed

Woah, Prior! Your work has really been an inspiration for me, so it would be great to see you tackle this guy. I've gone ahead and quadrangulated him for you; now it's just a matter of getting the files online. If you know of some free hosting then I'll put him up in the SDK thread for everyone, otherwise I can just send you an email.


EDIT - I found a free host and put the files up for download in the SDK thread. Enjoy!

Zcubed

I've been really busy with school these past few weeks, but I've managed to churn out a few WIPs. From top to bottom you can see my early texture for my Ogre SDK, my unfinished Dominance War entry, and a short modeling exercise that I started tonight.




Unifinished Texture



I'm not getting in as much practice as I'd like, but I feel a little bit more familiar with modeling and texturing. There's no real substitute for experience . Crits? Comments? Things I should focus on? My modeling time is limited, so it'd be nice to know exactly what needs work. It's really more about general technique than specific projects.

Thanks again!

Sage

Nice progress. I think you need to focus more on texturing now than modeling. You may want to model something simple inogranic like a car or tank and texture it so it looks realistic. The idea is to get used to fixing seams and getting into texturing things. It seems to me that you really like to model so texturing might be a pain in the butt to get into. If that's the case just force yourself to do it and it will become easier the more you do it. Later.

Alex