Will it ever be
polycounter lvl 18
Ok, first off, I´m REALLY drunk ok, so see the post from a very realative viewpoint.
My issue.
The problem I have ... I´m sitting here at my current job doing visualisations and I´m absolutly fucking drunk (brithday party - bosses all gone) ... ok
The question that came up, ... how can someone like me that has no education in the field of art generaly even think of becomeing a character artist.
So my argument was that I´m employed to create things that literally just look cool. Nobody cares if I fuck pinguins or sit at home and pet my computer as long as I create kickass stuff.
the counterargument of course is, why, does anybody go to school to earn a degree when you can teach it yourself, wich has to put me into a cocky position of thinking that I am a strong enough person of beeing able to teach myself the nessesary knowlege (beeing a good artist ) to become a good character artist (and I mean REALLY good) without a found education in the field of art. (if that is possible anyway because I like to realtiveate things, esspecially art issues)
So what are you thoughts on this issue if my post even makes sense. I would be glad if you share your personal thoughts and fears because I know alot are taking the same way that I am taking .... so go ahead and excuse my spelling
My issue.
The problem I have ... I´m sitting here at my current job doing visualisations and I´m absolutly fucking drunk (brithday party - bosses all gone) ... ok
The question that came up, ... how can someone like me that has no education in the field of art generaly even think of becomeing a character artist.
So my argument was that I´m employed to create things that literally just look cool. Nobody cares if I fuck pinguins or sit at home and pet my computer as long as I create kickass stuff.
the counterargument of course is, why, does anybody go to school to earn a degree when you can teach it yourself, wich has to put me into a cocky position of thinking that I am a strong enough person of beeing able to teach myself the nessesary knowlege (beeing a good artist ) to become a good character artist (and I mean REALLY good) without a found education in the field of art. (if that is possible anyway because I like to realtiveate things, esspecially art issues)
So what are you thoughts on this issue if my post even makes sense. I would be glad if you share your personal thoughts and fears because I know alot are taking the same way that I am taking .... so go ahead and excuse my spelling
Replies
I think the common advice is that you should get a degree that can net you a job outside of the industry so you have something to fall back on.
I guess I'm in the same boat as yourself. I'm entirely self taught at new media and get paid quite a lot of money to make things go flash, pop and wizz bang. I'm freelance now but my previous job had me in the position of art director to 4 artists and 2 programmers. Mostly we made games for interactive TV and websites for newly released console games, while not being the cutting edge of the games industry, I sometimes wonder how I ever ended up where I was.
Previously, while my friends were all at university I was making websites for well know musicians and record labels. I always thought "whats the point of going to uni? it's only going to set me back 3 years in an industry I'm already in".
I guess we're lucky but not unique. I spent 3 years on welfare before I entered the new media industry. Every month I would go see games companies looking for scraps of a job. My entire family had me pinned down as a layabout good for nothing waste of space, because I refused to work at the supermarket or in a shop or some other brain numbing job. It's good to stick to your guns sometimes.
I still feel bad turning down jobs. Like I'm insulting myself from 8 years ago.
an artist that is educated and knowledgable about art will be better than not. you don't need a degree to make kickass character work. a degree shows that the individual made it through an expensive curriculum of classes, can finish what they started, are in debt and vunerable.
I've seen tons of educated artists that could literaly make NOTHING usefull,
I don't think its so much what a degree shows prospective hirers, as much as what an artist "can" learn if he wants to
A degree does not put a stamp of creative tallent on a person and say this person can make anything. If anything it says they are good at paying ass loads of money for classes they will more than likely not need. Staying up late to finish work for said classes, and in general didn't want to get off the mom and pop money train just yet.
Most people I know who go for degrees in art or "games" are doing in on someone elses dime not thier own. They are also going because its the "cool alterintive" to college. It doesn't make them any more creative or productive unless they really push themselves. The ones that waste it will more than likely not learn what they need to and thier portfolio will show it. They will not get in dispite having a degree. You need two things, tallent and creativity. The degree makes it easier to SHOW potential employers you have both. If you don't have both creativity and tallent get a degree in bean counting...
Anyway, the key thing is, do NOT worry about it. If you have the talent and can apply yourself in the right ways, you'll do well. Formal education is a way to learn things, but in art school you learn about as much from the other people there as you do from the instruction. Sometimes, you learn more from others. So, if you're now in a studio situation, you have about as much chance to 'learn by association' as you would in college.
Not only that, but I would say that the game art market is one of those environments, like other visual arts, where it would be more economical to pay a company to let you work there for a couple of years, rather than pay to sit around in a classroom for a few years and let them tell you about how to work.
/jzero
fact #1
Most art teachers are worse that you if you have any degree of skill.
fact #2
Studio art classes are the most boring thing in the world. "Lets spend 3 hours drawing this saggy tit hippy for the 5th straight class in a row! Yay!"
fact #3
Everything you need to learn about art can be learned easily for free if you want it enough.
fact# 4
Skill trumps everything else. If an employer says it doesn't, you don't want to work there.
Now that being said, a good friend of mine is going through a fine arts program now. He doesn't have the same intense and burning passion that I have for the craft, but at the same time there isn't anything else he wants to do more. If you don't want it so bad you can taste it I recommend a degree program. In some areas of art, a degree can get make up for a lack of skill.
Character art is a field that I see very few excelling in. There are a lot of aspects about it that I doubt any class is covering.
Ninja, I have to disagree with your first 2 'facts', more or less the way you present them. Yes you will have teachers who arent as 'with it' as you, or may not create art that you think is better than yours but there is ALWAYS something you can learn, especially from someone who is older than you and may be a bit wiser.
And yes you may be spending 3 hours drawing saggy tits but it's for your own good!! People PAY to be able to draw saggy tits on their own time, you know why? because it makes you a better artist, even a better modeler. The more comfortable you become with anatomy the better and quicker you'll be able to recreate it.
...a degree in that would mean you can model anything. It's more a way of saying "look, my portfolio isn't just a set of lucky shots or stolen artwork, I can actually make art".
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KDR: Hehe, in an ideal world, that'd probably be true. However, on my course (BA in Computer Arts though, not pure "character design"), people could go through the academic stuff and come out with a degree, yet have little to no marketable skills unless they had focused on their skillsets in their free time.
Phil: Well, I dunno if it answers your question, but as I get further into doing videogame art, the more I regret not taking a fine art course when I had the chance. I chose "Graphics" at high school instead of art, so while I know how to use Photoshop a whole lot, I'm lagging behind in the field of drawing, painting, design and creativity. It's a lot better route (IMHO, of course) to be taught fine art, and learn the digital tools and specifics on your own, rather than being taught the digital tools, and learning the fine art on your own...
However in the entertainment industry, you can't qualify a "good artist" by a set of tests and assignments. One could argue you can't do that for the other fields, but in general, I think you can.
Getting your degree means practically nothing to an employer. I've never once been asked by any of my employers where I graduated from, and when I look at peoples resumes, that's the thing I'm least interested in. Now if you need to go to school for yourself, you learn better that way, you want access to other students and equipment, then by all means, go for it. But never let your school fool you into thinking it's going to somehow give you a leg up on someone without a degree. It's 100% about your portfolio and your attitude. No matter how good your school, awful people graduate every year, and no matter how suck-tastic the school is, a few gems will go through. So the degree is a worthless measure of ability.
I wouldn't say its really necessary to get a job in games but if you want to be mobile and able to move anywhere you want then I say go for it.
Being able to get a visa only with a degree, is still tied to the outdated notion that a degree means everything.
Take my similar example. I'd make a much better teacher than 95% of the current teachers in the game art schools around the country, but because I don't have the magic piece of paper with my masters degree on it, I'm not "qualified" to teach in schools. It says nothing about my abilities, but is merely an outdated formal requirement.
-Adam
I would recommend getting an education. There are a lot of benifits that people over look when it comes to a college environment. Learning on your own is great and i know most of us have done it but there is something to be said for creating art along side other people, in the same room. You learn a lot just through interacting with others while you work, and even if you are better than all of them you'll still learn things. Pluss it preps you for the human interaction you'll encounter in the 'job' world!!!
Ninja, I have to disagree with your first 2 'facts', more or less the way you present them. Yes you will have teachers who arent as 'with it' as you, or may not create art that you think is better than yours but there is ALWAYS something you can learn, especially from someone who is older than you and may be a bit wiser.
And yes you may be spending 3 hours drawing saggy tits but it's for your own good!! People PAY to be able to draw saggy tits on their own time, you know why? because it makes you a better artist, even a better modeler. The more comfortable you become with anatomy the better and quicker you'll be able to recreate it.
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I was being a bit sensationalistic. Certainly, even if facts 1 & 2 were always true (and I'm sure they aren't), you should still be able to learn SOMETHING. Putting time into drawing is important. I suspect that if I added together all the hours I spent drawing it would equal at least 4 years worth of time.
I think life drawing isn't the main skill you need when doing concept art. A lot of people who get degrees in fine arts are crippled when they don't have something to look at. I have never seen or heard of an art class where you had to draw something realistic from your imagination.
A college education is great and I really enjoyed my time there. I think there are some really great degrees that would compliment teaching yourself art. An art history degree is a great example. The degree I went after is about trade-offs and so compliments my desire to design games. If you get a psychology degree, you would learn why some types of art are so popular among some people and how to cater to them, if you get an anthropology degree you get exposed to different cultures and why they do what they do (great for concept work). Music or lit degrees would may help you get your creative juices flowing. I guess my feeling about it is; why get a degree in something you are going to learn anyway? Get a degree in something you where you actually need the help with motivation.
Getting a different degree will take some time away from you practicing art, but not much. I drew in most of my classes anyway. The degrees I mentioned aren't that hard either, so you won't spend hours studying like you would if you were trying to be an engineer.
This is just how I did it and so I'm a bit partial. I'm sure there are a lot of different ways of doing it that fit other people best. I have a lot of different interests so this is what worked best for me. I like that I have a well rounded education, and I took a lot of art and art history electives too.
I agree with you that a degree is often entirely unrelated to skill, but it should never be dismissed as useless.
It says nothing about my abilities, but is merely an
outdated formal requirement.
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an outdated federal/state requirement. If it's a private school than no such stipulations exist...they can hire whoever they want. If it recieves state or federal funding, then I believe they have those requirements... at least that's how someone told me it works.
result: a lot of teachers who have spent their entire lives in a school, getting really good at learning about art, but not actually learning much about art.
I have a degree-- in economics. This was because I realized there was nothing special about an art degree, but I still wanted an education.
fact #1
Most art teachers are worse that you if you have any degree of skill.
fact #2
Studio art classes are the most boring thing in the world. "Lets spend 3 hours drawing this saggy tit hippy for the 5th straight class in a row! Yay!"
fact #3
Everything you need to learn about art can be learned easily for free if you want it enough.
fact# 4
Skill trumps everything else. If an employer says it doesn't, you don't want to work there.
Now that being said, a good friend of mine is going through a fine arts program now. He doesn't have the same intense and burning passion that I have for the craft, but at the same time there isn't anything else he wants to do more. If you don't want it so bad you can taste it I recommend a degree program. In some areas of art, a degree can get make up for a lack of skill.
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LOL
"saggy tit hippy"..
hey.. i also married one of those..
anyways, WELL SAID.. i agree with all points.
but there is one thing i didnt see anyone mention: the environment. u can have tons of potential (dosage), a lot of passion (set) but the environment in an art school (the setting) can be extremely essential to ur development and ur journey.
1. to get a Visa.
2. to get the teamwork experience.
And they're good arguements. Ridiculous, but good.
You can learn to become an artist without being instructed...unless you have no motivation, in which case, perhaps you shouldn't be doing art. Maybe you just like the idea of becoming an artist. But, today art is just as much a stressful career as it is a relaxing hobby. And it's been argued that most people in the game industry aren't great artists. For the career aspect, the degree may come in handy. What's done is done quickly and is just enough to get by and get paid. No vision, and no passion necessary, unless you're goal is that big screen TV.
I still highly recommend going to school to anyone who asks. It will NEVER make you a good artist but if you have the drive it will certainly put you in situations you wouldnt neciserrily encounter sitting at home learning by yourself.
So i think we can all agree getting a degree doesnt make you a good artist
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But the education behind the degree has the potential to make you a better artist, just as long as you have a passion for what you're learning. Then again, if you're shelling out 10-15k a year for a course, you better have a passion for what you're learning.
let me tell you about a porcupine's balls: they're small and they don't give a shit!!
i just finished working with a 19 year old kid who was self taught,landed his first job and moved out of his parents,was doing fine until the workload became too much and he was given assignments which he didnt know how,instead of asking for help and saying he had problems he kept it to himself, did some really stupid things to hide the fact he didny know what he was doing and they fired him. with a little maturity and experience he could have still had a job.
In my case my diploma is important because i need it to apply for a work permit in Holland so i can remain working here.
College at first seemed like a waste of time for me but i have seen many advantages in having one as the years have passed
let me tell you about a porcupine's balls: they're small and they don't give a shit!!
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yes, hello. i'm calling about your colgate toothpaste. it made me feel, like a piece of shit!
...
i pissed!
HAHahAAHhahahaa!! that crazy fucker.
Thx for sharing your thoughts on the degree part. It probably doesn't hurt and like Daz said quite frankly, with all the pros and cons from the art side you need one if you wan't to work internationally.
My "fears" are more in the direction of potential, like shotgun said. Even though I have a strong drive to grow as an artist how significant would the difference in progress and growth be if I take on studying.
With a regular job (with that I am quite lucky, doing at least something in the 3d sector), trying to get into the gameindustry (back into it in my case) and learning aside is a challenge that will take it's time but so would studying (where I would need to work aside to).
I did not start out doing gameart because I felt so artistic or had the idea of oneday beeing a gameartist, I did as "countermeasure" to my time in buisnessschool. (allthough I always have been drawing)
With the time, the art part started to expand and it has fundamentally changed me as person and the way I take things so I definatly wan't to dig deeper because at the moment from what I see, I´m just scratching the surface.
Gamesindustry is definatly the goal when it comes to "what do you want to be" questions for a few simple reasons.
- It is an area where you can create good art
- You work with interesting people (most of the time)
- You get to see different places/countrys
- You can make a fairly good living with something you like to do.
The advantage it brings is that you as an artist can work in a field where at the moment the demand for good people is quite high (thanks to its enormous growth) and you can be an artist. (this may change, stablize or even collapse shortly like it did in germany)
Even though your plans may not be to stay in the industry forever it is still a very good option for a young growing artist compared to the things you have to give up as long as you know what you really wan't.
So after this forever ongoing text
Living costs and that is the mainproblem actually.
I mean opposed to Medicine, science and engineering, where uni is a must.
I've worked in Scotland/England/Belgium/Germany and now live in America.
3years work experience = 1 year of college. 3 years of college = a degree so 9 years experience = degree level qualification that can allow a company to get a visa lawyer to go to bat for you.
You have to be very good though and it helps to win awards often and be part of award winning games and a company has to have money , resources and be driven to get you.
A degree gives you more options but the lack of one doesn't destroy your options or I doubt I'd be working at Epic.
Oh and as for ability to grow without the training, see my last sentence. I think there is no substitute for talent and drive. If you have it, going to college or working by yourself or working in a company is still going to bring it out.
As long as you have faith in yourself and the good sense to smell the roses while you work, you will eventually get to wherever it is you want to go.
r.
lol
no seriously, like ror said if you have faith in yourself.. fuck'em!
FUCK EM
every other day i personally consider going back home, finding a nice quiet house on the country side and quit the whole damn school shit. what, you need a degree to draw?
if you think uve got the shiznats, somewhere deep inside, then there's no reason why sitting in your hippy cabbin burried in those beautiful mountains of yours and drawing your ass off for another 3-4 "college" years won't get you to where you want to be. just look at luke hollis, a classic example. some ppl need the "system"...
but fuck the system!!!!!
with the proper passion (draw every day, most of the day) and descipline (3grams=bad! wtf), in a couple of years i trust u'll be fine mate.
i feel there's a general tendancy towards get it done, and get it done fast. like, u'd be wasting your life drawing at home, but if you pay a uni to draw now then you're doing something!
that's bull.. did i already say fuck'em?
it's also important to have ur family& close friends support your decision.
sounds to me like you want it, you want to, but u have a lot of doubt in yourself.
i think the former 2 and the entire thread are evidence enough to show you have the passion.. just reluctant in taking your first step and possibly failing. this issue of self doubt and fear of failure is an issue everybody has, and is an issue to be solved within urself and ur ego.
Really.
Sure I drifted off and need more focus. (dismanteling yourself is not so healthy)
Sure thing fuck'em, nothing more I would like to do, we can marry and move onto the countryside house.
The self doubt in combo with the ego is definatly something that has to be attended. A bit hard to see the thin line between good self confidence and ego for yourself. (you know, what will offend and how to deal with it outwards but the inwards balance is the real trick) but ror is definatly stateing a point that should automatically work on that issue to.
The main problem at the moment is the choice where to focus. The question wich plant to water and watch it grow, allthough you like all your plants equally and have no deeper wish than attending your garden all day long. It would be such a waist. (symbolicly speaking
Thats why picking apart this and the other subjects is really nervrecking.
I know it is a position of never dareing a real step forward
but who likes to keep on walking blindfolded, TIME TO OPEN THE EYES and I am still very sleepy.
We will see, if tumbling around and learning that way leads to the same result, as long as that little bit of sense for stability doesn't one day loose itself before the major crash.
Like I said you have come to know me now and everything you have written, nails it because you have been there and are doing it. Thx for showing me the rabbit hole, just got to follow
Enough bothering the others with this personal stuff anways now
@Jimmies
Thats the way we learned it.
Makes sense I guess for other industries. Personally I'd rather take an artist with 1 years work experience than one with 3 years of college. Perhaps cause I don't have a degree in jack. :P
r.
With 3 years college (BA Degree) and 1 year experience, I should be set to go, right?
r.
Learning people skills is one thing i would argue a degree is good for.
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It's sad that you have to go to college just to learn people skills, and communication skills...but needed. In a perfect world, that task would go to parents, or at least high school.
I would only recomdend doing it for 3-6mo then moving on to something else, unless you like verbal abuse.