Viking Huscarl - Need some C & C - Judge me!
polycounter lvl 18
My goal is to have this mesh finished by the end of today, that will hopefully include the head. See i'm on a strict time budget due to needing a solid demo reel ready in about 2 weeks and with only what i'm posting as my only work suitable for it...
The aim for this character is a Viking Huscarl; which is essentially the more heavily armoured of the Vikings. Two examples of the style i'm going for can be seen here & here.
The model sits at a 2800 tri count for the moment, i'm looking to make a 5500 poly model more or less. It'd be suitable as a main character in a 3rd person latest gen game.
Anyone know what kinda poly counts weapons get in such games? As i'm gonna be making this guy a fair array of weapons...
Currently my Body mesh looks like this:
I want to get wires up, however, for the life of me i don't know how to do that "Render the mesh with the wireframe shown over the top of it.", all i can get is a wireframe with no mesh between the wires, which looks like arse and doesn't really show a good shape. Anyone care to enlighten me on how to do the wire & mesh combo?
You can also see the start of the Viking Sword i'm making for him in those images.
With the arms; i've got the right sleeve rolled up to show off his golden arm band, a popular piece of jewellry of the time, and the left arm will have his sleeve down to the wrist. I just wanted to give him as much variety as possible.
Now i feel there's something wrong with his proportions, but i've been staring at this thing for days so i can't be entirely sure. Does anything spring out to you guys? Arms too long? Legs to skinny?
A few people thought the thighs looked off, but what i'm trying to get is a mix between painted models i linked above; baggy pants, but tied up below the knee and to the ankle, classic Viking style.
Once i get the body done i am going to add the final touches to the head... and probably plead for some criticism & advice then too.
Be as harsh as you want, really tear the thing to shreds, but when you criticise please try and give advice as well, to help me improve.
Thanks!
The BigJon
The aim for this character is a Viking Huscarl; which is essentially the more heavily armoured of the Vikings. Two examples of the style i'm going for can be seen here & here.
The model sits at a 2800 tri count for the moment, i'm looking to make a 5500 poly model more or less. It'd be suitable as a main character in a 3rd person latest gen game.
Anyone know what kinda poly counts weapons get in such games? As i'm gonna be making this guy a fair array of weapons...
Currently my Body mesh looks like this:
I want to get wires up, however, for the life of me i don't know how to do that "Render the mesh with the wireframe shown over the top of it.", all i can get is a wireframe with no mesh between the wires, which looks like arse and doesn't really show a good shape. Anyone care to enlighten me on how to do the wire & mesh combo?
You can also see the start of the Viking Sword i'm making for him in those images.
With the arms; i've got the right sleeve rolled up to show off his golden arm band, a popular piece of jewellry of the time, and the left arm will have his sleeve down to the wrist. I just wanted to give him as much variety as possible.
Now i feel there's something wrong with his proportions, but i've been staring at this thing for days so i can't be entirely sure. Does anything spring out to you guys? Arms too long? Legs to skinny?
A few people thought the thighs looked off, but what i'm trying to get is a mix between painted models i linked above; baggy pants, but tied up below the knee and to the ankle, classic Viking style.
Once i get the body done i am going to add the final touches to the head... and probably plead for some criticism & advice then too.
Be as harsh as you want, really tear the thing to shreds, but when you criticise please try and give advice as well, to help me improve.
Thanks!
The BigJon
Replies
Secondly, without seeing wires we cannot just flow and animation readiness.
Thirdly, he is ramrod straight. The spine curves, even with clothing on this is usually still somewhat noticible.
Id say push the outline more - make each division between the clothing noticle ont he model as well as on the textures. Dont be afraid to pull the oints too far - you can always pull them back.
As an art director said to me once "Come on, don't be shy!"
My current model would abhor many people, it looks massively jaggy at the minute, just because I'm putting bulk in.
For wires, print screen from editor and paste that into an image program.
Ok, at the moment he seems to be lacking character. Push that silhouette more, even in a rest pose it should be telling a story.
Secondly, without seeing wires we cannot just flow and animation readiness.
Thirdly, he is ramrod straight. The spine curves, even with clothing on this is usually still somewhat noticible.
Id say push the outline more - make each division between the clothing noticle ont he model as well as on the textures. Dont be afraid to pull the oints too far - you can always pull them back.
As an art director said to me once "Come on, don't be shy!"
My current model would abhor many people, it looks massively jaggy at the minute, just because I'm putting bulk in.
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I was putting in a fair bit of mesh detail before, however after looking at the effect of chain armour over a body, i've found that there is little definition beneath. However i could probably put more mesh "bends" in to simulate the shape of the armour...
WireFrames:
The sword is around 570 tris, is that acceptable for an in-game weapon? the pommel is rather detailed, which is where the majority of polys are.
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quickly: I'd scale him up from the waist down, because, yes, his legs do look short.
For wires, print screen from editor and paste that into an image program.
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Thanks for clearing up how to get those wire/mesh combos!
I shall scale up the legs a bit... i think i'm bias to the length of the legs 'cuz i'm short, so i keep thinking everyone else has short legs too.
Ok, will update again soon.
Now there are a few details to add in; a collar for the shirt beneath the armour, and the buckle for the belt, as well as a bit of tweaking around the feet. However apart from that, i feel i could move onto working on the head, and then hopefully finishing this fella up.
What do you guys reckon? Notice anything that needs particular attention?
There's the head; it's going to have a helmet over it so the top of the mesh is more for general shape. however i want to try and get a really... disgruntled look in his face, i'm not too experienced with such high poly work. Most stuff i've done is for RTS games and the like.
The mouth is... well i think it's pretty terrible, the lips aren't right at all. However i have been un-able to find any good reference pictures of a middle aged Northern European man, hell just a good image of a harsh looking guy in profile...
All advice on the head is very welcome, it's one of my biggest weak points, and there seems to be a lack of good lower poly head tutorials out there.
Wires
Next: Attaching the helm to the head... seeing if i can make on of these helms:
I attempted to make one last night, but met with some peculiar problems, and it looked rather silly so i just built the classic conical one you can see in the pictures of the head.
Criticism? Comments?
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You've got a lot of dense edges at the knees, ankles, elbows?, and maybe a few other joints. You don't really need them. Personally, I'd arch the back and pronounce the chest a bit more. Maybe bend the knees a bit to relax his pose. Also, the belt is flat across the body. I like the angle that so that it's lower in the front. Looks more natural, and again, relaxed. Coming together well though, lets see that head.
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By arch the back do you mean roll it forward around the shoulders area? Or lower?
Also the density of lines by the knee/shin joint are for the edge of material that is going to be there... if that was what you were talking about. Also on his left arm there are two arm meshes on top of each other i haven't gotten around to editing the mirrored arm out.
Also with the flow of the lines, can anyone see anything that may stand out at as a problem when it comes to rigging/animation? Or anything that doesn't look quite right?
As to you your head, you mentioned the lips as being a problem, and I saw what it was very quickly. You've built the classic Mr Potato Head lips, there both look stuck onto the shape of the head. Its very common and easy to fix. The problem is mostly at the corners of the mouth. The Bottom lip sits flush with the face, and the top lip overlaps it. Just have a lookin in a mirror and you will see the that where the lips meet they seem to intude on the face.
Hope this helps,
Rick
here's a quick ´n crappy paintover
He is looking MUCH MUCH better already - bulking him up and exaggerating the silhoutte always works - remember, you are making assets for a game and subtled doesn't always work.
As to you your head, you mentioned the lips as being a problem, and I saw what it was very quickly. You've built the classic Mr Potato Head lips, there both look stuck onto the shape of the head. Its very common and easy to fix. The problem is mostly at the corners of the mouth. The Bottom lip sits flush with the face, and the top lip overlaps it. Just have a lookin in a mirror and you will see the that where the lips meet they seem to intude on the face.
Hope this helps,
Rick
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Yup the silhouete technique worked very well, and i understand now about the lips. Though i dunno if i'm rectifying the problem too well:
I figure what i've got to do is get the upper lip to just overlap on the corners of the mouth... that about it?
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coming togheter nicely! I think the shape and silhouette of the sideview is what could use some work. i would try get him into a more dynamic pose. As suggested, get some angle on the belt, tighten it up so you get a bit of an arc on his back. Pull the legs back a bit and add som mass to his lower legs
here's a quick ´n crappy paintover
*snip*
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The legs look way too... straight and back to go with that posture to me. I did take your advice on the belt though, that i can agree with. I haven't been able to portray the exact body shape you have in your overlap, but i do think you brought some flaws to my attention; here's the latest shape:
Well after having a look through "The human form" thread, i noted the Loomis references to height & shoulder to shoulder width. So i had a squiz at how incorrect mine is, and as i suspected he's a bit short... which to me just makes his head seem a bit large, but each time i've tried to make it smaller it looks wrong as well. I feel like there's some kinda of proportion fundamental i'm missing here... i'm about to head into class, where i'll be talking to my tutor about it.
I tried lengtheing the body, but that just made him seem very lanky, and that's not the look i'm going for, i'm thinking more along the lines of a character who's just around average height, and solid in form. NOt super realistic though, but i believe that you need to get the fundamentals right before you just go all creatively crazy...
However if anyone cares to comment on anything else they can see that stands out too much. I want to try and either un-wrap tonight or start the higher poly model for normal mapping...
Thanks for all the help so far guys.
Cheers
Jon
I'm happy with the shape of the body, and the proportions now, i've cut down on actual mesh detail, but it's worked for the better.
Only things giving me pause at the moment are making the eyes and the ears; if ANYONE has any good tutorials or links to some please drop 'em here.
Cheers
Jon
For your mesh resolution an 8 (or maybe 10) sided each shold be fine, and you'd probably get away with the same for the ear.
at he moemnt your ears are too far back (the entire jaw is a bit too long), and too low down, and possible a little small. Here a quick cheat - ear sizes can be used to fool people into thinkg the character is male or female (females having smaller ears). So make those puppies a bit bigger and you've got a testerone surge.
You could also take some of the hard horizontal edges out of the skirts to make them hang more naturally. Also make one hang to the left, and one hang to the right, and you give the model a more interesting shape. JUST DITCH THE SYMMETERY.
You've done that on the arms, to an extent, but push it further. the top shirt? Make one sleve longer than the other. make one have a different crease.
Same for the legs - make the hugle bugling of cloth be higher on one that the other. Twist is.
The best thing to do to ditch a mirrored shape is to hide half the model and alter the remaining side. Once done, unhide the other side, hide the side you modified and get back to work. You end up with 2 different sides.
The TWEAK tool in Silo is stunning for this - pop your mesh in and it is like sculpting.
-Making the ears look... right.
-Making eyes (good ones that is.)
-The facial hair, i was going to use a plane system where i paint the hair and alpha map it so it overlaps; kind of like what that bloke did in the low poly wolverine, except on his jaw and around the back of his head & under his helmet.
Though i'm not sure how well it will work at all... ugh, damn deadlines.
Updates soon...
My other main problem is i need to make an alpha map for the hair on his head, i used a plane system, so i could actually get some shape to the hair & beard, however i'm at a loss as to the best way to alpha map it, just make a greyscale and do it the way through max, anyone got any suggestions on what might work well to make the beard look more beardy, texture/alpha mapping wise?
Cheers
Jon
That'll teach me for not doing any alpha maps for over a year.
EDIT:
I'm such... a fool.
The TGA one puts in to the opacity map slot just has to be a black & white image, correct?
Black is transparent, white is opaque.
I tried using just a plain ol' black & white image for the alpha, but it didn't seem to want to play by the rules. So what i had to end up doing was putting in the alpha layer in the channels in Photoshop, and then saving it as a .tif file, since it was the only one i found which worked.
Is .tif a good fileformat?
Thanks for the help mate!
The focus is supposed to be the character. Please all tear it to shreds, i'm dying for some good brutal honesty.
He isn't posed up properly yet, so his hands look a bit too static. Anyhoo, all criticism and comments welcome!