The Human Form - Male

JBoskma

Hey guys. We're going to work on the human figure of a male this term. I will be working on parts each week, and I want this to be perfect.

My goal is to achieve a super realistic, anatomicly correct and non stylished High Poly model of the male figure, which could also serve as reference for other people on these boards.

I'm planning to put a lot of time in this, so I'll be asking serious comments and crits every week. Today I've blocked out the proxy model, to rough out the main proportions. Shred it to pieces, paint it over, crit the hell out of it.

I've rotoscoped the model from reference pictures though, so I think I'm at this point still fairly good. But please let me know all things that should be different in this stage. Crit away! (This weekend: The torso)

Edit: The line in the middle of the cranium, serves as an indication for the tip of the nose. It's not the eye line.



EDIT: Second try @ Proxy model after applying comments.


Last update:

Robert Headley

Hmm, you have the shape correct, But I dont remember the human body having that many... Points to it... other than that, Great

all joking aside, thats a pretty good starting point, the biceps seem... largish, but I imagine thats the kind of thing that will be tuned as the model progresses. I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out.

cholden

Look good, the legs seem a bit stubby compared to the upper body, but that may just be how you used your polygons in the front, crotch area. 4 sided arms and 5 sided legs, am I seeing this right?

Is deformation for animation important to you on this project or are you sticking with statues for the low poly?

poopinmymouth

Silhouette looks as good as I can tell from this resolution. I think you need to put more thought into the shoulder area and how the underarms resolve into the arms. It's something that even at this density needs attention. Looking forward to your updates.

cep

At first, it looks like the shins are too small, but withought the crotch it's hard to tell. Might want to raise the knees.

His small rib cage makes him look some what female, so do his hips. Posing his feet apart, and making the torso a bit bigger might help.

looking cool, i'm just nit picking.

KRakarth

with reference to p28 "Figure Drawing for all its Worth" by Andrew Loomis based on the academic proportions of 7 1/2 heads your model is a little bit short, it is also too wide, and some of the other proportions are a little off as well. The chest looks a little deep at the shoulder blade, the elbows are a little too high. hands are a bit too big and the knees are too high.

Gmanx

KRakarth, I noticed that you're using the width of the head to get your 'two heads wide' reference (the two red lines).These should be head heights, which Loomis uses as his universal body measurement.

JBoskma - It's all relative but there's been some good points so far. My tuppence worth is that the arms girth (thickness) widens too much from elbow to shoulder looking at the side view. That will change if you shrink the chest cavity a bit front-to-back. I presume your're using loomis already? Since your wip model fits over his pretty well.

MoP

Pretty good start, although I agree with Chris on the legs seeming a bit stumpy, I guess it's within natural boundaries, so it's ok if you wanna leave it like that.

I absolutely agree with Poopinmymouth here, you really wanna sort out the underarm and shoulder connections, even at this low level of detail - the lack of armpit, and the weird shape of the mesh at the upper back and shoulders, is really not a very good starting point for further work.

Sort these issues out and you should be fine to continue!

JBoskma

Robert: Thanks, I will work on the bicep, as more people have mentioned it.

Cholden: 4 sided arms and 5 sided legs yes. You suggest changing this? I will change the pose of the legs a little bit. And work on the round shape. thx

Poop: Thanks. I will work on the elbow and shoulder area. You have any suggestions to enforce your comments? Like adding an edgeloop within the 2 quads that form the back of his elbow area (lower / upper arm)?

KRakarth: I think your right, though I used a different picture from Loomis. THe one gman used, and as you can see there's a lot less of a significant hight problem there. I will look better into the problem we're having here though. Thanks

GmanX: Thanks mate, that's the ref I was using indeed. Thansk for the suggestion on the chest and arm.

Mop: Roger, will do. =]

Thanks a lot for all your replies so far people. As I can read from your comments, the main problems so far are in the elbow and shoulder area. The upper arm seems to short, and the topology in the shoulder and elbow area needs adjusting. If anyone would have any more specific examples on the meshflow within this area as how it could / should be in this state, they are very welcome to post that. Updates soon.

JBoskma

Okay, take 2 @ the proxy model. c&c still welcome.

vahl

proportions look good

even though it's an exercise, I'd work on the shoulder topology and put more subdivistions where it's meant to be animated, shaping up the mesh for the animation from the very base mesh is always better than tweaking after.
I'd also give him a t-pose or something close, this will be easier to define armpits, arms, legs etc.

good luck on that project highpoly anatomy is cool

shotgun

if you really wonna figuer the figuer (har har), take these renders you posted, and try and draw the skeleton over them. that way you'll see exactly where you are wrong, and what information you are missing. once you draw the skeleton, put your muscles masses over the bones, and youll get your proxy model.

copying a flat shape of reference, honestly, will teach you very little because you will subordinate yourself to a flat 2d shape, and once you'll start pushing things around you may quickly lose your proportion because you wouldn't know what the heck it is you're trying to push..

see your hands for example don't work very well, because the wrist is wrong. that wrist is in fact the 2 forearm bones, how they articulate with the hand bones and how they are posed. you gotta figuer all that shit out if you wonna get the hand right. there's nothing in the wrist, essentially except them 2 subliminal bones and some tendons. your wrist should directly take the form of those 2 bones, and if you don't know how they sit than you just have to study your anatomy and figuer it out. superfacial representation (like your ref) looks fine on first glance but it will only get you this far. there are no easy short cuts here... human form takes years to study.

loomis has some other pages where he shows how to simplify the human form, bone to muscle, simple to full figuer. you might wonna work with that.

spider2cool

are you going to leave the limbs so close to the body...for posing purposes it is in the model's best intrest to open his arms and spread his legs...kinda like a jumping-jack. that way he can be moved around without wierd kinks. if this is just a still figure not used for anything then you might not need to do that.

JBoskma

Vahl: I Will probably take your advice and pose the character into a T pose before moving on. I really want to keep the proxy mesh as simple as possible, so I won't be adding more lines at this stage. Thanks for your crits.

Shotgun: I've learned that creating a skeleton and doing the muscles over em might be great practise for your understanding of the human anatomy. But I think that understanding the oreign and insertion of every muscle is a lot different the understanding the forms the muscles create. How those forms affect the final surface and how they add weight and balance to the character, right?
I have a lot of reference paintings, photographs and photos of sculptures for every part I will be modeling. Still that's all 2D, but I don't want you to think I will be only using the first simple loomis doodle Gmanx showed us allready.
When I will pose the character out in a T-Pose I will work on that area though. Thanks for your time though. I hope you will keep posting your thoughts in this thread, as I believe you have very good knowledge about this all.

Spider: Though the model won't be animated, I will be aiming to create something well deformable and animatable. You aren't the first to say something about the pose, so I will repose him into a T-Pose.

Thanks so far everybody, it's really helpful.

shotgun

you are right, the first step is acknowladging and understanding volumetric forms. and that's the problem with linework ref like the loomis ones - they don't convey form at all. will you know how to make the form, then? it varies so much, there are no rules. in fact, it doesn't even matter if the form is accurate or not, it just needs to exist when you draw it, so its not a line that "looks cool", you need to actually visualize a 3d form, and your lines must represent it. i believe 3d modelling is a bad way to study anatomy, because you dont have to make your mind work in 3 dimensions, you dont need to visualize anything, the program does it for you.

so basically, if your goal is to be able to understand the figuer so you could draw it, then go draw... and in that case (which i may have been too presumpteous to believe was your intention) you DO need to know the insertion points of the muscles.
if you just want to get cool results in 3d, keep doing what u'r doing, because your visionary ability really doesn't matter. although, still, your work will never hold the same strength as your no.1 kscott... and i think ive told you that b4. do you think he doesn't know the insertion points of every muscle? the structure of every boney mechanism? the location of every organ?
i used to think that was just extreme.. but now i know i was just a. ignorant b.lazy c.horny
its important.. its fundemental.
DAZ, who posts here, has a great grasp of anatomy too, and u can see that in his work as well. its rock solid.

this is all from my personal experience man, we are all different peple and have different dreams.. just make sure you make the honest choice.

motives

yea, i have to agree with shotgun. I made a similar project a while back (with a thread here i shoul ressurect heh) which started out as just building a male high poly but ended up more or less like a anatomy study simply because if you want some sort fo realism its vital to grasp the fundamentals. I have a few errors in my model that comes from me modelling w/o the proper knowledge of that particular anatomy and i still studied anatomy books like a madman while building it! Some stuff you just realise with time you know? It might look pretty straightforward at first glance but when u really start getting into the anatomybiz you realise how complex it gets.

But hey, atleast i had alot of fun with the anatomy books (and still am). You learn a lot of useful stuff

good luck with the model, will be interesting to see this shape up.

Zergxes

I often wonder if that particular ref pic is wrong, but a lot of people use it. There are a lot of figures out there where the shins seem unnervingly stubby to me. Somtimes this is compounded when people rig the rotation point at the center rather than towards the top of the knee. The shape of the femur makes the tibia's point of rotation higher the tibia extends.

SkullboX

It always completely baffles me how extremely strung up people are about finding human - especially male reference. Shocking as it may be, and although you might not have the ahtlete's proportions you'll most likely end up going for, you are still the proud owner of one male human body... in working order!

Seriously, the main reference I used for learning anatomy was myself, sometimes along with a mirror. Besides it's a lot easier to figure out anatomy and form esspecially in regards to deformation if you can move and feel your own set of muscles and bones.


As for your model specifically Boskma. The areas that bother me most are the croth and the shoulders. The croth is one big mess, he seems to have a 'package' exactly where the cavity between the genitals and abdomen should be, I think modeling the space between the legs where they join the body up front would fix that mostly. The shoulders are odd because there aren't any, the upper arm is simply connected to the body as if it were a hose. I'd also model the arms in a 45 degree angle, personally. Good luck man!

Weiser_Cain

My proportions are 'diffrent from the norm'. Compared to others I have a slightly short torso and arms and really big legs.
http://www.cdmedia-studio.com/anatomy_anim.html

MoP

Yeah, it's not so much the proportions that are the problem - I think they're fine. It's like SkullboX said though, you need at least an extra row of faces at the crotch and under the armpit, even at this low level. If you don't, you'll really be screwed later on.

Zergxes

Yeah, Skullbox summed it all up nicely. The Incredibles DVD extras showed the Pixar folks recording themselves jumping around and acting in front of mirrors- using themselves as reference. Glad I'm not the only wierdo doing that.

Gmanx

As an animator there's a useful mantra - "If in doubt, act it out". I would add that having a mirror on your desk is essential. Who else knows just what face to pull?

motives

well.. Your own body is a good source of reference no doubt but there's just no way you can actually see where muscles attach to bone, tendons attach etc etc. (unless you really wanna hurt yourself)

a healty combination of both your own body and anatomy books and reference is what i would recommend

DarthRevanII

JBoskma....I hate you
It's people like you that make me look at my own stuff and be like "...what the fuck is this shit, its crap."

Looking great though man...I can't really comment on anything without being redundant, but just thought ud like a compliment

JBoskma

Thanks for all the good and kind replies guys. I've been working on the torso today. Sadly I didn't bring my file back home, so I can't show you anything. I've been drawing a lot as well. Had a 3 hour life drawing session on wednesday evening, and been doing muscle sketches with my anatomy books today as well. I'm messing around in the shoulder area atm. There's a lot of muscle overlapping and wrapping going on there. As well as some hard bone structures as the clavicle, which are bringing a lot of shape to the structure up there. It's proabbly the most iritating (complicated) part of the torso. I'm pretty happy with how my stuff is comming a long, though the crappy part still is, keeping a nice fluid meshflow and showing every muscle and bone that is there as well. Pictures tommorow, or saturday.
I've found a new passion though: The human body, for all what it's worth.

MoP

JBoskma: I just remembered this link to Daz's highpoly demon guy, his anatomy seemed pretty awesome to me. Maybe worth taking some pointers from.

JBoskma

Thanks Mop, that helps a bit indeed. I haven't got a chance to model today, sadly. But here's the progress I wanted to show you guys yesterday. I'm still roughing out shapes, so there's no muscle definition yet really. But crit away! (I know the shoulder ends too low).

shotgun

thats pretty good.
your rib cage bulks-in too high.. and i think thats because your pecto muscles sit too high, and i think thats because the pecto doesnt sit correctly on the rib cage... which brings us back to the skeleton. thats the problem with anatomy, one mistake leads to another, and the more fundamental your mistake is (as in, its wrong skeleton structure not just misplacement of muscle /form of muscle) the more critical are the consequences.

find your boney landmarks, i dont see any... its all too mooshy. mop's example of daz is a good, delicate demo... but for this id suggest making them more obvious. where are the clavicals? the front point of the thorax cage? the scapula? the crest? etc.
figuer those out before u place the muscles..

i dont know why im babbling anyways, it should be daz posting here not me.
where is the bloke anyways?
showing off his cali accent, surely.

adam

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JBoskma: I just remembered this link to Daz's highpoly demon guy, his anatomy seemed pretty awesome to me. Maybe worth taking some pointers from.

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Book-marked.

hawken

if you bunch verts together a bit more, they become more defined in meshsmooth

JBoskma

Thanks for your post again Shotgun, appreciated. Update:
EDIT: N/M, needs way more work first.

MoP

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super realistic, anatomicly correct and non stylished

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I've never seen a guy with an under-ribcage line that deep or defined in real life yet
Not even bodybuilders have a curving line under their pecs like that. I certainly don't, and I doubt you do - look in a mirror!
Basically, if you want "super realistic" and "non-stylised", you wanna sort out that area as soon as possible, because if you leave it like that then continue to work in more detail, the problem will always be there.
Focus on getting each detail pass to look as realistic as possible before going in and adding any more.

Edit: Quick paintover animated GIF. I went a bit overboard, but you should see what I mean about the ribcage curve underneath the pecs - it shouldn't be there.
Basically you said initially that you didn't want a stylised model, and you wanted it to be as realistic as possible - your current model still looks stylised and not as realistic as it could (note the silhouette outline changes I did too).
Updated paintover to take shotgun's crits about pec height and such into account (slightly screwed the perspective in my painting, but you should still get it, i think):

shotgun

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
super realistic, anatomicly correct and non stylished

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never seen a guy with an under-ribcage line that deep or defined in real life yet
Not even bodybuilders have a curving line under their pecs like that. I certainly don't, and I doubt you do - look in a mirror!
Basically, if you want "super realistic" and "non-stylised", you wanna sort out that area as soon as possible, because if you leave it like that then continue to work in more detail, the problem will always be there.
Focus on getting each detail pass to look as realistic as possible before going in and adding any more.


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well, the thing is mop (and u too jboskma, if u r actually listening to any of this), its not a line, at all. lines dont exist. and that type of simplied, arc-line that represent the split between the two parts of the rib cage, is so much far from the actual, anatomical structure of things. when u draw it, u only draw the line of the rib case, because IT IS that simplified arc that u often see. however, mst people dont realize that and they just draw an arc, like jboskma here. again, once u place your skeletal structure underneath, everthing easily falls into it, just like puzzle pieces. its not that difficult *SUPPOSDELY

but you first have to stop thinking in terms of line and actually understanding what they represent, because lines are only representations other artists have made before you. the "why" is very important.

JBoskma

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well, the thing is mop (and u too jboskma, if u r actually listening to any of this), its not a line, at all. lines dont exist. and that type of simplied, arc-line that represent the split between the two parts of the rib cage, is so much far from the actual, anatomical structure of things. when u draw it, u only draw the line of the rib case, because IT IS that simplified arc that u often see. however, mst people dont realize that and they just draw an arc, like jboskma here. again, once u place your skeletal structure underneath, everthing easily falls into it, just like puzzle pieces. its not that difficult *SUPPOSDELY

but you first have to stop thinking in terms of line and actually understanding what they represent, because lines are only representations other artists have made before you. the "why" is very important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shotgun, reading you first sentence, makes me think that you think I don't care about what you and other people are saying in this thread. I really want to let you know that this is not the case. I grant high value to the polycount boards, and also to your posts, as I can tell you seem to know this very well. So please don't think I'm an ignorant guy or anything, I read and try to use all the useful comments here.
Now about the model. I started over. I decided that I hate box modeling, and that I'm way more comfortable with patch modeling. I think I'm getting closer, here's another take at the torso, comments welcome.

Toomas

http://www.hot.ee/ttdr/AnaFig_Back_001.jpg
http://www.hot.ee/ttdr/AnaFig_Side_001.jpg
http://www.hot.ee/ttdr/AnaFig_Front_001.jpg

This figure you can buy if you want to, cant remember how to find it tho.

Prs-Phil

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.hot.ee/ttdr/AnaFig_Back_001.jpg
http://www.hot.ee/ttdr/AnaFig_Side_001.jpg
http://www.hot.ee/ttdr/AnaFig_Front_001.jpg

This figure you can buy if you want to, cant remember how to find it tho.

[/ QUOTE ]

uhm hardcore ...

MoP

Hmm, I'm getting confused here, JBoskma - are you making a bodybuilder or a regular guy? For the average human male, that musculature, especially on the back, is waaaay too defined.
Basically I took your first post to mean that you wanted to create a super-realistic, non-stylised human male ... personally I think extreme bodybuilders are a "stylised" form of the human body, and I think it'd be more beneficial and impressive if you actually modelled a more realistic "average" guy... since then you can't be blatant with muscle placement and shape, you have to be subtle but accurate. IMHO this would be a better way to go.

Also, ribs don't curve like that

This looks like a better start, indeed, but I'd just like to be clear on what it is you're trying to make before we can crit it further. There is a huge difference between modelling a realistic bodybuilder, and modelling a realistic average human male.

JBoskma

Hey Mop. I'm sorta aiming for more of an athletic build guy. He should deffinatly have some good muscles going on, but not the bodybuilding kind. The reason I modelled quite some of his back muscles is because of his pose. His arms are slightly bend to the back, which takes away the weight of the shape from the shoulderblade, en gives those muscles a better shape. Atleast that's what I believe happens Thanks again for your post buddy. Here's an update:

Toomas

The stomach is way off just look at the pics i posted yesterday.
And the hole in hes groin, wtf is that supposed to be???

JBoskma

The hole is his navel / belly button. The pictures you posted are very useful, but my main reference shows an 8 abs build, with a defined line of the rib cage. Hope that answers your question Toomas..

Toomas

Navel is just very slightly down from where the ribs end, i think the 3rd from top abs are too tall (ribcage is too far from the pelvis aswell).

MoP

Hmm, Toomas is right, the navel is too low... can we see your refs? IMHO you should work from as many as possible so you can find an "average" rather than relying too heavily on any one source.

Zeldrik

Your ab anatomy is all wrong, the only way he could have 8 abs defined like that is if the muscles covering the rib cage below the pecs were prominent, in most males the six pack below is the only defined area....but even with the most athletic bodies you wont see a 10 pack which is what this guy would have. (edit for clarity) I guess what im saying is you cant have an 8 pack and still have the ribcage like that, the whole structure has to be moved up to meet under the pecs. If your refs show this kind of anatomy I would be very interested in seeing it.

The belly button is far too low it should be just below the waist/ elbow....(male belly buttons are lower than females but still close to the waist line)

Anyway besides all that its looking pretty cool so far, I like what you're doing with the arms....I must get around to doing this myself sometime.

thread is favouratised, I think its a great learning idea for the whole community.

Jelmer

Zeldrik, Mop. One of the references I'm using is a Gnomon DVD, containing a Zbrush character session. I'm looking at that mainly for the stomach area and placement of the abs. I've placed the belly button up a little higher though. Worked a bit on him today, need to finish up the arm, and then move on to the head after tweaking the torso a bit more.

Zeldrik

Well then the gnomon dvd is wrong, its really that simple.
Look at your own torso and feel around, I doubt you will find any real reference to back up the 10 pack (8 pack + ribs),its also making your whole torso too long becase of the extra row and the belly button is stll far too low, it should be 1 row up..read some anatomy books and they will support this. I know in your eyes its looking cool and you dont want to change it but trust me it will look a whole lot cooler when its right...i see this mistake all the time when people start drawing comic art or anime hero's.

Toomas

Why are hes hands curved up like that, try to hold yours and see how uncomfortable (thus not natural atall) it really is.

rawkstar

cuz its gansta zak petroc signature pose, which has been copied by about a gazillion other people.

Stringer

Hi,

I agree with what people are saying here about the ribcage line, it's just simply not apparent on natural anatomy. I've studied anatomy for a while and the only time I've see the ribcage come into play is only when the body is in extreme poses, such as the bodybuilder 'pose' the vacuum, or exscessively sucking the stomach in. I built up a base mesh for Zbrush recently, which has anatomy built in, for personal reasons, I don't like to start from scratch each time I sculpt, that may be of use, admittedly it's probably not as sculpted as you may like (hell, that's what zbrush is for! ) but it may be useful or not ?



You can download it from the Zbrush forums in .obj format : -

ZBrush Forums Download Link Page

Regards

MoP

JBoskma: One thing I've learnt you should never do, is try to learn anatomy from other people's art.
It's just not the same as a photo or a video or even looking at a real person. Other artists make mistakes or choices when representing the human form, and if you're using artwork as your main reference, then it's going to turn out wrong.

Do yourself a favour, instead of buying art DVDs, buy a subscription to 3d.sk and download all their male photo reference sets. That way you have something real to work from.

Stringer

Yeah, it's always good to study reference for yourself. But I wouldn't dismiss the learned who have studied anatomy.

MoP

Steve, yeah, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, it's good for studying, but not as a base for your own work, I'd say. Personally, I'd study the "technical" side of stuff (like edge flow, poly density and things like that) from the artists who have already studied anatomy and modelled their own interpretations, but when it comes to making my own model, I'd use only photos and "real life" reference for the actual proportions and muscle structure, and just bear in mind the technical things I've learned from the other artists who have studied anatomy. That make sense?

Sorry, didn't mean to dismiss your efforts, the base mesh you have there seems very useful, and you've done a great service to the community by offering it for upload