Major drama at Id Software?
polycounter lvl 20
I'm lazy, so IM just going to rip off the post from Blues News
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Videogame Maker Id Software Rejected Offer From Activision (thanks Bob Woodward) is a subscription-only article from the Wall Street Journal based on a lawsuit filed by id software co-owner Adrian Carmack revealing that the artist and id Software cofounder was recently fired (maybe I'm just the last to learn this, as his "retirement" is mentioned in his Wikipedia Bio). Also revealed in the court filings is that Activision offered id $90 Million last year for the DOOM, Quake, and Wolfenstein properties and was considering making an offer of $105 million for the entire company. The article explains why this information would come to light in court: "Adrian Carmack claims the decision not to sell the company was part of an effort to force him to sell his shares back at a fraction of what he would have made in a sale to Activision. Under terms of a contract he has asked the court to void, Mr. Carmack would have to sell his 41% stake in the company for $11 million, below the $40 million he might have reaped from Activision." It is not clear how Adrian Carmack ended up 41% owner of the privately held company: He was one of its original founders along with John Carmack (no relation), Kevin Cloud, and John Romero, but since then Romero parted ways and Todd Hollenshead and Tim Willits were granted ownership stakes early last year (story). The article's conclusion sums up the legal action: "In a filing earlier this month, he claims the other owners fired him after he refused an offer to be bought out for $20 million. The Activision offer was revealed by a filing by Mr. Carmack seeking to have his employment contract declared invalid. He contends Id's other owners rejected the Activision offer so they could acquire his shares as a price below what they might later fetch." The article reports both id and Activision as either unwilling or unable to respond.
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Thoughts? Comments?
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Videogame Maker Id Software Rejected Offer From Activision (thanks Bob Woodward) is a subscription-only article from the Wall Street Journal based on a lawsuit filed by id software co-owner Adrian Carmack revealing that the artist and id Software cofounder was recently fired (maybe I'm just the last to learn this, as his "retirement" is mentioned in his Wikipedia Bio). Also revealed in the court filings is that Activision offered id $90 Million last year for the DOOM, Quake, and Wolfenstein properties and was considering making an offer of $105 million for the entire company. The article explains why this information would come to light in court: "Adrian Carmack claims the decision not to sell the company was part of an effort to force him to sell his shares back at a fraction of what he would have made in a sale to Activision. Under terms of a contract he has asked the court to void, Mr. Carmack would have to sell his 41% stake in the company for $11 million, below the $40 million he might have reaped from Activision." It is not clear how Adrian Carmack ended up 41% owner of the privately held company: He was one of its original founders along with John Carmack (no relation), Kevin Cloud, and John Romero, but since then Romero parted ways and Todd Hollenshead and Tim Willits were granted ownership stakes early last year (story). The article's conclusion sums up the legal action: "In a filing earlier this month, he claims the other owners fired him after he refused an offer to be bought out for $20 million. The Activision offer was revealed by a filing by Mr. Carmack seeking to have his employment contract declared invalid. He contends Id's other owners rejected the Activision offer so they could acquire his shares as a price below what they might later fetch." The article reports both id and Activision as either unwilling or unable to respond.
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Thoughts? Comments?
Replies
Would have to say while I doubt even John leaving will mean the end of id Software.. (sorry but it's a brand now, Activision will do what Eidos did with Core and keep the known brand) it hopefully will mean that unfortunately we'll loose the guy who practically kicked off the 3D gaming generation. We will finally see id Software free to evolve and develop something new.
Hopefully no more creating games just to show off a new engine. That's all Quake 3 and Doom 3 have been really.
id Software showing off what they're new engines can do.
Silly really. You can see alot of effort going in behind the scenes to make it all work; but in the end being limited to the restrictions set by the top dog. Hense the public arugment between the Carmacks.
Kinda look forward to that day when we see a new id Software. Not sure if that's a sad thing or not.
Adrian and John Carmack aren't related, are they?
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No they are not
so, that means id software will be activision's internal dev team rehired from the ground up making poor sequels off the established id franchises?
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More likely scenario will be Raven Software, Splash Damage and Greymatter will be given the franchises. id Software will be used as Activisions branding to break new markets.
What did Adrian Carmack used to do at id? Level designer? Artist?
Either way that's a lot of money to lose out on... ow...
Personally I think id are still doing very well, they have Kenneth Scott!
r.
ID's typical drama ? ...sorry, but there's people quitting and being fired constantly everywhere in the industry. I'm sure id is still one of the better places to work at in this industry, and has unmatched salaries, too.
Jeesh, that was one game! They tried a new style and people didn't like it. What made id special, anyway? They were known for great engines and that's it.
He was an artist Mop. I think Ken has been more of the driving force at ID since Q3, so as is often the case with the community overspeculation as to how disruptive someone leaving is, it's probably not as bad as it might seem.
r.
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fuck, man
adrian carmak rocks!!
if i get it right (and i could be wrong) all those kick ass textures since the original doom game - it was him, wasnt it?
i am just playing doom3 now (ye, im fashionably late
no, sorry, i dont think his departure will be insignificant. his style is so hardcore and gloomy, and i think id's game will seriously miss his artistic touche. ken rocks, we all know that, but his candy show-shine style needs a balance, and that was adrian (or was it kevin cloud?? i dunno)
anyways, shame shame. thats all i have to say.
Can we have a Polycount magazine that speculates (in a sad and fun way like here) about the industry ? think it would be very hollywood like and entertaining.
ID's typical drama ? ...sorry, but there's people quitting and being fired constantly everywhere in the industry. I'm sure id is still one of the better places to work at in this industry, and has unmatched salaries, too.
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Ha, to bad fatbabies is defunct ..im suprised a clone hasn't risen from it's ashes . There drama is just so public and put much more in the light of it being like school kids fighting . I mean I really think the only reason American Mcgee is video game famous is because of ID drama ..what else do you call it ?
As for the story, I didnt get the half of it, so I´ll summerize what I got. ID software is going be intergrated into the activision hive...ansd therefore some are leaving and so on or will be fired. hmm well... then go to ritual
No, it was a horrible place where people just gossiped and bitched.
At some point so much money exchanges hands that they just shouldn't care. How many fleets of exotic cars driven by hot chicks can you have before you just roll over and go back to sleep?
They should go down the filth rotten rich checklist and realize they just need to not get lawyers involved because they will eat up most of the money.
- Can you buy anything you would ever want? Check.
- Do you have enough money to support yourself, your childern, thier childern and thier childerns great grandchildern long into retirement, in the lifestyle you are now acustomed to (stinkin rich)? Check.
- Can you start your own studio and use your rockstar status to pull a Diakatanna? Check.
- Do you have enough money to take the failure of your first game and continue to pump out more games? Because really you have an insane amount of money and if you want to make 50 sequels about cocco the narcoleptic bunny with an inverted penis who likes to hump mail boxes, you can. Check.
If all those things checked out for you, then its time to move to a south pacific island and start building your own evil empire, Then you can start to lure world renown super spies and assassins to your island and play a deadly game of cat and mouse, in your wacky fun house. After killing a few of those I guess you are ready to call up your old teamates and exact some revenge. Oh but wait they don't want to leave thier seceret evil lairs. DRAT foiled agian!
cocco the narcoleptic bunny with an inverted penis who likes to hump mail boxes
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sounds like a hit to me!!
Have any of you guys read "masters of Doom"? it's the Id soapopra.
See it holds true for every company, make a crappy game and your company will eat itself from the inside out playing the blame game. In this case the are in denial about it and are going at each other over who gets the biggest slice of pie when they sell.
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I sure wish we all had your reliable information sources.
Kevin Cloud and Kenneth Scott carried the Q3A product to completion on the art side and then Kenneth and Kevin did all the texturing, style-setting and most of the model work (save for the team-based player character models) for Team Arena (while also supporting prototype work on Doom 3, carrying water for Gray Matter on RTCW and getting Raven jump-started on Quake 4 ... those guys were working hard during that time).
When I departed id, Adrian had recently become involved again in the Doom 3 project. I don't think it's a secret that he was not happy with the decision to do Doom 3 ... or the way it came about. Adrian's art style was to tend toward the macbre, but with a lot of emphasis on intense color. Kenneth's was significantly more chromatically subdued. When I parted company with id, there wasn't much in the game that was identifiably "Adrian Carmack."
The scenario where Activision would eventually acquire id always seemed like a likely eventuality to me. It seemed to me at the time (over three years ago) that the owners were growing weary of the stress of the game making process. But that's just my opinion (and the opinion of someone who had grown unhappy being at id by then) and it should be taken as such. But, it is also my opinion that an Activision buyout would be a good thing, perhaps the BEST thing that could happen to id right now. Everybody (possibly even gamers) would benefit. Owners would be handsomely rewarded for their equity (and would likely be required to stay with the new id studio through the transition); Activision would secure a number of very strong brands (id AND it's products) and be able to leverage them in ways that id never could be bothered with (such as aggressive licensing) and could develop them in ways that the original crew may not have; there's a good chance that one or more owners would become studio directors (as has been the case with numerous studios acquired by publishers like Raven, Ensemble Studios and even Gray Matter ... though the latter was not a success story); non-equity employees would likely continue to have employment as Activision worked to put together a first class FPS studio in the (relatively) low-cost environment that is Mesquite, TX.
If would have downsides, of course. Employees would likely have to be content with compensation packages more in keeping with the industry in general. Owners who stayed on would become employees. id would probably lose its status as an "engine company."
As for me, I'm three and a half years out of date in my "inside information" on the company, so I have no clue as to whether the plaintiff's claims are valid. But my memories of him are of a nice guy. If he's been cheated out of the actual value of a company he co-founded, and whose reputation he helped established, then I hope that justice prevails here, rather than a technicality of law. And I welcome him to the proud (and usually much more happy) fraternity of ex-id guys.
I'm going to make popcorn, sit back and watch the drama unfold. Pass the salt, please.
That almost surprises me that Kenneth Scott preferes more monochromatic styles given his style in Daikatana and Q3. His work has been inspirational to me, and partly because I loved the colorfulness of it.
I also heard that Kevin Cloud was not the father of John Carmack's child, and that Ken Scott was having an affair with Adrian Carmack's mother. Now that's real drama!
Steed was let go (and despite what outsiders say, it was NOT, repeat NOT a tit for tat response to the political game-playing that caused Doom 3 to come about). The decision to let Steed go had already been made by Kevin and Adrian (they were in charge of the content folks ... John was in charge of the coders)
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Well I did get a slightly different story from the horses mouth. But I can understand POV giving each person a different interpretation.
Let me say this. Though Sting and Andy Summers fought all the time, it helped with the growth and dynamic range of the Police.
EDIT: Let me stipulate that "the horse" was more commenting on why he was let go. Not whom did it.
MoP: All lies, I'm certain.
Note: I previously edited that part out of my original comments as being irrelevant.
Meaning what I interpret/combine from them all to draw a conclusion.
The rest is largely just tabloid-esque entertainment!
I could see him doing silent partner investing in game companies, but not actually working for one again as an employee.
Edit: I've known that Adrian and id had parted ways, and that there was a lawsuit in progress, but had heard none of the unpleasant details (I work with guys who have left id more recently). Most of our conversations degenerate into "Boy are we happy to be out of there." But I don't know any "inside dope." The id ownership tended to keep company business matters to themselves while I was there, and I suspect that hasn't changed (its a privately held company and their business dealings have the right to remain private). Even though I worked at id for 5 years, when I read "Masters of Doom" I learned things about the goings on inside the company that I didn't learn while I was there. ("This is loop. It is very small. See Paul. See Paul be outside the loop.")
i couldn't care any less myself about the inside gossip, it just looks to me like id lost a great asset, integrally making the company a game art empire.
my best wishes to adrian wherever he goes.
I'm also glad I posted late enough to not be included in the asshat section
I'm also glad I posted late enough to not be included in the asshat section
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Oh, youve been around long enough to know its never too late for that!
There is no Scotchtoberfest!
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"You used me, Skinner! YOU USED ME!"
I'm also glad I posted late enough to not be included in the asshat section
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Yeah, nice to know I am one.. god knows what earnt me that comment. I never said they were related.
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("This is loop. It is very small. See Paul. See Paul be outside the loop.")
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There are a few companies where it's not actually uncommon to be totally out of the loop apart from your dept. What has always got me has been the lack of communication at id software.
I mean your really hit the nail on the head when you said, Kevin is in-charge of the Art, and John is in-charge of the Code. Really that's the key problem with the company, and I wouldn't doubt that is one of the main reasons so many are kind of glad to be out of there.
After your first post Paul, well I'd say the chances of missing what Adrian brought to the table probably aren't as much now as it used to be. Can't really say I've noticed a difference since you left, but then tbh not really sure what you did.
All I know is that Quake 2 and Quake 3 had very distinctive models and texture-skins that you could tell the same artists were working on both. That changed for Team Arena, and Doom 3 has none of that at all. It's a totally new style. Not because of the engine but for the models and textures on the whole, they seem far more chaotic in thier designs.
It's strange really, people are right. This happens across the industry on a daily basis. Still, at id Software it comes up a little more important. With such a small staff, loosing someone imo is a big deal; especially when that someone is a co-founder and/or ceo.
Also the circumstances makes it stand out as well. After all while sure arguing over say $50million is a big deal, it seems a little stupid to argue over money when your worth a mint and you were offered more than what most us will earn in a life-time.
Heck you can have 15 Middle-Class families very comfortably live of just the interest of what he was offered. That's hardly something to be snuffed at.
at the companies i was employed, i really didn't care about being outside the "loop". in fact i wouldn't have wanted to be bothered with these internal fights at all. that allowed me to concentrate on doing what i was hired for.
Like condescending is my style
r.
/me flips out
I've been keeping up-to-date with John's other achievements.
http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Home
I think they should have gone with Adrian's plan for D3. Even tho id has pushed the limits of gaming, I believe the industry is at a point where it can push on it's own. Many studios are making leaps in technology these days, with id has an influence.
Based on information in articles I've read, I'd like to suggest the following:
1. id Software does indeed owe Adrian Carmack substantially more than the (reported) $20 million dollars they offered him as his buy out.
2. This case will never go to court.
So, here's my non-legal, non-insider information opinions on the matter:
Why would the value of Mr. Carmack's ownership shares in the company be substantially more than id offered? Because ACTIVISION said they were. Why does what Activision say in this matter count for anything? Activision, a publicly traded company apparently made an offer to buy id's IP and the company itself for 90 and 105 million dollars respectively. Being a publicly traded company, Activision's directors are supposed to act in their shareholder's best interest and that means making good decisions for the company and getting value for the money they spend in acquisitions. In all likelihood, those values were at the low end of fair value for id and it's properties. So in the time period around which Adrian Carmack was let go, the value or at least the potential market price of the company and its assets were appraised and set by a source outside id Software. And since the appraiser would want to get the best price possible, in all likelihood, that appraised value is lower than the actual value of the company and its assets.
Why will this never go to trial? Because it is in id's best interest not to. This is not a case where id can ask for the charges to be dropped on constitutional grounds (as in the Jack Thompson-filed cases involving shootings in Kentucky and Colorado). Because Adrian Carmack is an owner, he is owed his share of the value of the company at his time of departure (which would likely be paid out over a number of years -- not a lump sum). That's not in question. The question is "How much was id worth at the time of his termination?" Because of the offer from Activision (which will likely be documented in board of directors minutes at both Activision and id Software), the company would have an appraised market value, not an arbitrary value set by the other id directors. The case will likely argue that Adrian's share of the company should be based on that appraised market value. If Adrian Carmack wins this case in a court of law, he would also likely be entitled to ask for PUNITIVE damages above and beyond his portion of the company's value. That could be nothing, or it could be large. Whatever the case, a court trial would be both public and ugly and is not likely to have any kind of gag order or seal put on the outcome of the trial. An out-of-court settlement could be private and finalized between the plaintiff and the defendent, because id is privately held. The only thing the public would know would be that id Software and the plaintiff came to terms for an unannounced sum of money. End of the story.