Soldier - Realtime Normal Mapped Char
polycounter lvl 18
Hi!
- Nope not a Kurt Russell movie, but a quake/doom style soldier
!
- Trying to polish normal mapping / hipoly skills.
- I haven't taken any screen caps or done other renders in last weeks, but here is one image which i rendered just minutes ago...
http://www.cgmill.com/ss/wip/20050809_soldier_pose_01.jpg
- Will post more info/polycount soon
...And - Huge thanks for Poop n Pior for great tutorials!
- Nope not a Kurt Russell movie, but a quake/doom style soldier
!- Trying to polish normal mapping / hipoly skills.
- I haven't taken any screen caps or done other renders in last weeks, but here is one image which i rendered just minutes ago...
http://www.cgmill.com/ss/wip/20050809_soldier_pose_01.jpg
- Will post more info/polycount soon
...And - Huge thanks for Poop n Pior for great tutorials!
Replies
texture wise I think its ok, BUT u might want to introduce another material, maybe some sort of a mesh for the pads on his stomach, and maybe somewhere else too.
I think its good, for a start, you could really make this look badass if you worked on it a little more
I like this one a lot!
I only have a few tiny crits:
- The outline (silhouette) of his upper legs is very boring, very straight - even just a few extra polys on the sides to make it look like his trousers are wrinkling or folding would help, I think.
- The strap holding his knife to his leg doesn't look like it has any depth - I think the normal map could help here, by making it look like the strap has more depth, and that it's pressing into the cloth of his pants and making it fold and bunch up a little.
- The ends of his shirt sleeves seem to have very sharp edges - is this because of smoothing groups or the texture? It shouldn't look that sharp, since it's cloth, but I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to fix.
In general, really great work though, yet another character to be proud of! It's also nice to see that you can adapt to a range of different styles, that's very good.
-MoP
- Thanks for comments. Maybe i should have mentioned it is still wip!
- I guess i won't add that much details in geometry, first reason being machine power, and second time I can use for modeling. I should find some work soon
- Of course I would like to add more and more details, but it seems like impossible task currently... besides that, i guess this model is in this form some sort of example of my skills - i hope... Will make some better renders and probably change some details as soon as i can, and anyway, i will polish normal maps (they are straight from max currently)
Mop:
- Thanks!
- Normal map details need still some fixing(like that strap) - I don't know why it doesn't show, as it has thickness in high-res mesh. Have to check it again!
- Same goes for sleeves. It's not smoothing but something i have to paint/fix in PS.
- I guess i should add more detail to legs, (only 3x8poly tube for upper leg now... can't do any wrinkles in profile i fear... but i guess i will do it later
But other people have already pointed it out: your design skills seem a bit lacking. Most of your models follow a line of familiarity where the viewer can instantly categorize your work as "space marine," "spy chick" etc. This could be an issue in why you're not hired yet. Your work is solid, but your design skills don't stand out. If I was going to hire you, I'd make sure I had a great concept artist feeding you ideas. I'd recommend that you browse some other sites like conceptart.org and find some good concepts you'd be interested in modeling. Ask the artists if they'll let you turn their work into 3D models. A few fresh and original models would go a long way in helping you stand out from the crowd.
Also, the fact that you don't post wires/texture flats doesn't help your cause at all. People want to see how efficient and technical you are, it's just as important as your actual skill as an artist.
Don't take this is a slam, I think you're a great artist, and you should probably be working in the biz right now. But you've got to be a little more open in showing how you're doing stuff, and you need to make sure your work stands out from the pack.
I think simplicity is underrated these days. Every pixel of a normal map doesn't have to go towards adding another vent or tube, it can sometimes just define a slight roundness and some surface grit.
My big crit is the color choice. His undergarments look a tad like therman underwear, which might be adding to the "naked" look. I'd try adding either a camo pattern, or silver threading, or change the color to a more muted cool color (blue or green most likely).
Anywho, you are gonna be an insane asset to whoever ends up with you. You're work is really rocking.
Thanks for comments (i sent you priv msg too!)
-I said i will post more images as soon as i start doodling again, have to take a break.
- It's hard to wear all hats at once, but i try to better my concept skills. Anyway, i guess it's good also to show even average original designs, than just doing copies from other artists concepts? I hope so
poopinmymouth:
- Thanks!
- I agree with you on detail comment
- What i personally like is another matter
- Silver threading - What is that? Vertical stripes on seams or something like that?
- I was thinking about camo pattern too, but them again didn't do it. He was sand yellow/grey yesterday. then i kinda just tested this color and liked it
Poop:
- Just repeating - Your tutorial was/is really a big help! You should make a book, would probably sell some copies! (BTW have you ever checked lulu.com?)
While its fair enough that less is sometimes more, you have not chosen a 'less' style.
Also, the big thing about normal maps is the fact that they can realistically fake more detail due to faking
enough angles ingame when the light hits them that a near cinematic level of quality can be reached.
This is what developers are calling 'next gen'.
There no point getting into a wanky arty debate about less is more and artstyle when you are trying to get noticed and get hired.
The way to get noticed with normal maps is via detail.
It's not just detail for the sake of detail though that will get you noticed. You want to be making a 2nd pass over every
piece of armour you have modeled and researching how those types of armour connect together and to a body.
For instance -
1 The Codpiece. Did he super glue that to his zipper?
How should that really be attached to his trousers. Work that out.
Now work out a REALLY cool scifi version of the real way that would work
2.Those shin pads, did he somehow slide those up from his feet , over his ankle and up into place in one piece?
It's not likely is it. It's more likely the would attach like biker or soccer shinguards with some stretchy attachment
cords or leathers that tie around behind his calf muscles and hold the shin guards tight and neat against the bone
while still having a segmented section at the ankle that could
slide and compact up into a smaller area when walking, or
a leather section that can likewise compensate for the bending
of the ankle.
3. The Torso armour, that should split at the side of the torso at the ribs,
it should have a couple of cool indents at the join with a big bolt that attaches
the armour to a strap that ties around to the back section of
the torso armour. The big bolt should have 2 small bolts on it that attach
it to a clasp that holds the strap tight and so on and so on.
This is the proper way to flesh out designs in hi poly to make the most of normal mapping technology.
Don't listen to people who try to talk about less is more or the practicality of time, or the worth of individual style.
Right now, everyone is competeing with normal maps to make insanely realistic and detailed designs so that it looks 'next gen'.
Deciding on the right of this direction is not up to artists. This decision comes down from the technology, to the biz guys,
to the art directors to the artists and we just try to make it work.
Does this make sense to you or am I just coming off as aggresive while trying to sound passionate?
Being detailed wows people and every company you try out with will always assume that you can't do hi detail unless you prove it.
Don't assume anyone who might review your work will be making hi minded decisions about less is more, they will be looking for an
artist who can help make their game look 'next gen'.
'Next Gen' right now, is cinematic realism ingame, its what we are all pushing toward on Xbox2, PS3 and PC.
Like all your stuff, this is solid work, capable design, controlled saturation, clear material relief.
With normal maps , you need to really take it to the next level to get yourself noticed though.
Good luck man, always a pleasure looking at your stuff.
r.
I agree with some details ror suggested such as the odd codpiece tho others are perhaps to be taken as his own personal direction to the design.
The choice of colour for his cloth appears off for me personally but that really isn't an issue here. The thigh areas also resemble tubes at this state, there are crease details in the normalmap at the top of the thigh and behind the knee yet no truely noticable ones between.
From where the strap around his leg is (that currently lacks depth somewhat), it's suggested to be fairly secure, yet there's no evidence of any surrounding creasing by the normalmap.
One more point that bugs me is the bottom of his bicep, it creases rather too tightly in a squareish shape like a plastic figurine perhaps would.
I think the design overall is great and u've managed to capture the differing materials convincingly.
It's great stuff for sure but just a small way off of being fantastic.
A good way to show off your normal-mapped characters would be to make a decent quality clip featuring fluidly paced, animated lights to better show us what effect the normalmap has on the model.
if you just went on and detailed everything with normal maps, it would be like shooting down those mosquitoes because someone said 'fire'.
you would aim and shoot, but you wouldnt really know why.
as per said, some companies probably wouldnt want you know why, just shoot (model) and stfu.
but, pretending your aspirations are a little hire than being a resident 3d gimp -- the core of the problem is *design*.
since this model has poor design, nothing led you to think more detail is needed,
be it more normal mapped practical parts of the armor as ror mentioned (on spot),
or another material as rockstar mentioned (also on spot imo).
when you have a deep and detailed design, the details naturally flow.
its a good thing this is still wip because you can still change things around, if you are not lazy.
http://www.cgmill.com/ss/wip/20050810_detail1.jpg
http://www.cgmill.com/ss/wip/20050810_detail2.jpg
http://www.cgmill.com/ss/wip/20050810_detail3.jpg
http://www.cgmill.com/ss/wip/20050810_heads_01.jpg
http://www.cgmill.com/ss/wip/20050810_torso.jpg
http://www.cgmill.com/ss/wip/20050810_weapon.jpg
I can understand your point of view. I guess i didn't try to start "wanky arty debate"- anyway, i try to say very little, not make anykind of statements. I guess if you read my sentence again, you know i wasn't saying i like simple style and i do always and now things that way, only because i like that kind stuff - and i don't even try to understand what next gen is and what companies expect
- I agree with you on design issues. Something i have to work on more. But it takes time, and time is money for me. Have to pay rent...without job it won't happen too long. Anyway, i hope what i can get my act together from place where i am, is enough to get somekind of job... Your comments don't bother me at all. Bigger and more detailed is always better to show to people if one can do such stuff, but i guess my options are bit limited currently
RazorBladder:
Biceps - I guess it's difference between hires mesh and tube like mesh of lowpoly version... It seems like the difference is too big.
- I will do a light/animation test, but later!
Per128:
Heh. Simply put and clear. I hope i wouldn't have to do also designs, if i have to do the modeling, texturing and materials...
"to define a few thin edges here and there"
I have to say i don't agree complete with you. This being not even current gen, i don't know what to say when i look games like battlefield and so on. Anyway, I wouldn't map face on flat plane, if you know what i mean. Normal maps don't remove need for profile and curvature. Anyway, i checked quake4 images, and they are not that diffrent in details described in normal maps. I don't try to sound hostile or anything like that! BTW Can you show some examples of yours?
shotgun:
Eh? This kind of comments make me wonder if i ever get work...
- "model has poor design" I know my weak points, i guess i mentioned i tried to imitate quake doom and such? Have you actually checked what kind of stuff most of the games have, not just top 3?
- I personally don't start profiling people by guessing what they don't do, or what they want and what they are trying to be. Anyway it's not very polite. I hope you understand what i mean.
- You could just show some exaple of yours - Instead of spitting down from ivory tower of yours. Sorry if i say it bluntly.
- Will continue working on this... i hope i will get it into better shape! thanks for comments, no offense to anyone!
I didnt pick up on any kind of attitude like that AT ALL from you ever in any thread I've read of yours, ok ? cool
I posted last night after a couple of drinks and whilst thats
generally what will mostivate my lazy ass to post more, it tends to make me wander from the point or come off too strong. Just so you know I wasn't looking to be offensive to you.
As for the time money issue, been there, we do what we have time for. Hi poly takes twice as long to make the most of it though, sooner or later you have to prove upfront you can do that.
I think shotgun does poke to the heart of things also in terms of the flawed design, I was just approaching a cure based on more nods to real world constraints which when thought through creatively can often offer solutions to flawed design.
we all have flawed design afterall , flaws are individual style.
And yes, Per spotted that I was talking about appeasing what others want, not about what I personally agree with!
r.
I think the point is that this is an awesome model that shows you are able to pull off Normal map tech. If it meets your concept and idea you set out to do,it's successful. Yes it could be better, and you should strive to improve on the next one, but nothing you make will please everyone. You're work is easily industry quality (on that note look for an email from me today) and it's only a matter of days before a company realizes how good an artist is out there waiting to be snatched up. You have shown a huge drive and improvement, pumping out a gigantic amount of work in the last few months.
I also find it amusing and highly ironic that my opinion was accused of being too "high brow" by some of the above posters.
Oh yeah and I like the monkey face in the middle of his stomach in your paintover. What is it about you and monkeys, eh?
I guess I perceived your advice here as being that its worth questioning the way things are. Often I perceive your opinions and advice ( outside of technical advice ) to always have that 'fight the system, be your own artist' nod behind your comments.
That stuff gets people in trouble. It's gotten me in trouble, its gotten you in trouble, it will get others in trouble if they beleive it so I always try to push this attitude that ...
none of those 'why' or 'what if' questions help us, it's a better goal to work out
how things are and try to match that and get along with that because reformists get labelled as trouble makers by
people looking to hire hard working sheep.
Telling people with less experience than ourselves that we think simplicity is underrated these days really misleads people.
I mean in relation to how the industry is, especially right now when we are on the cusp of a new batch of consoles, well its like saying 'small breasts/penis are underatted in the porn industry' isnt it
Per: Very thorough m8, though Poop's right, your monkey obsession is leaking out again!
r.
A bit smaller version
Were you rendering that in an engine though? Because it looks like a HQ-Render.
The only niggles I can say I really have with the model, is with the weapon (the handle area is very iffy compared to the rest of the work), and the arm isn't skinned so that it bends fluidly.
I'd also agree some of the other comments made but you've already responded to them.
I mean these are minor issues that I doubt anyone would notice much in-game, but issues you might want to focus on with your next peice.
I'd be interested to know the specs on the models.
The improvements you've made to your work over the past year have been staggering though. Hope you can keep it up. heh
- I guess it wouldn't look that different in some game engine. It only uses one or two spots with low-quality shadowmaps and color, spec and normal maps - Of course it wouldn't have nice supersampling
- I know the weapon issue. At first i wasn't even going to do a weapon. Handle is hidden into palm anyway
- And that arm bending - I know what i should do about it, anyway i guess i wouldn't like to bend it that much even with proper edge placement. Single pivot joint look crap anyway when bent too much. Maybe i have time to fix it!
- Well, keeping quality up might not be that big problem if i had proper income. Hah. Soon i will bee cleaning windows or similar i guess... Well seriously i hope not.
Per128:
- Thanks for tips. Anyway, i guess i will go simple way (not starting simple vs detailed discussion here!) your design has so many cuts in curved surfaces, makes model X times more detailed if you know what i mean.
- I was originally thinking more cuts and holes but then i calculated i won't get to normal mapping/texturing in relative short time. As i haven't done any normal mapped character (based on hires mesh) before, i thought maybe i do it in simple way.
- I guess i will make another version later if possible...And next one will be more detailed as i know what to avoid in hires modeling...
This allows you to pick seperate object such as a bolt and use that as a brush. Then you select the model you want to 'paint' bolts on, select advanced painter, select scaterer or randomizer, select the bolt as your object to paint with
and just click everywhere on your model you want a bolt and it will constraint those bolts to whatever the normal of that section of model is.
When it comes to countersunk bolts you dont need to model them in, you just use advanced painter and then when you process, it reads the floating countersunk bolts as embedded in the shape behind it.
You can do the same with renderable splines if you constrain them to the surface of the model you paint them over , then convert them to polygons and flip the normals.
All these things look shite on a fancy render, but the look fantastic on the normal map and take 1/2 as long to create and its the end result that counts.
Its VERY important to remember when you are making normal maps that you are not making hi poly models.
You are using hi poly model parts to sketch a your design onto a low poly mesh so you can do all sorts of floating above the surface trickery if you bear in mind that it will all be processed down onto the same flat surface.
r.
Would screw up the occlusion pass though. Is there something you do to account for that, or do you just not worry about it/not use occlusion maps?
Would screw up the occlusion pass though. Is there something you do to account for that, or do you just not worry about it/not use occlusion maps?
[/ QUOTE ]
I was always worried about that, but I figured I'd paint the corrections into the occlusiom map myself in Photoshop, but every time I forget because the innacuracies are so small that you really don't notice it at all.
Dont spend any time doing drastic changes to the basic highpolly mech.
Learn from what people said and move on to next model.
On a side note.
Its nice to se some more normalmapped chars with textures and all.=)
Come on people, get to work!=)
Yep. I know. I think i used that plugin long time ago. I prefer Silo snap instead. I used quite a lot these "sticker" objects. i did't actually carve any bolts or holes in surfaces...
I wouldn't worry too much about occlusion either. Finding edges then processing that into wear/occlusion like maps is easy to do in PS anyway.
By the time I got advanced painter and realised how many hours I'd saved, I could have screamed.
As for the worrys about occlusion renders, are you talking about backing a shademap of a sort of global illumination type for a guide in black and white of the depth of the normal map?
If you are, then I don't think its really an issue for the type of stuff I'm talking about.
Slapping inverted splines and hovering countersunk bolts onto a model are small details, if I was doing huge details it might prove more of a problem.
I am guessing a little here though because I don't do the texturing side of things anymore, I asked the big moosey to chime in later when he gets a chance though.
r.
when it comes to the texturing, you'd be surprised as to what you can get away with in the normal map, both during, and after the process (doing 2d normal map stuff).
What Ror had mentioned with 'floating' stuff above the mesh works great, and doesn't really 'f with doing a skylight render-to-texture of the mesh in Max; surprisingly. 80% of the time you wont notice too much that the trace is off from the actual normal map's blue chan. When you're working with a shitload of techy details, bolts, etc, that stuff will generally go unnoticed, but grated: it will drive you crazy sometimes. the 20% is when you gotta get on your hands and knees, go in, and either move those 'off' bits into their proper place, or just mask that area out of the diffuse/spec and move along.
the stuff that 'you can avoid while modelling' is never really clear cut. The Photoshop filter is awesome, and can do some kickass things, but sometimes a 'mesh knows best.' By that i mean, the PS filter will end up making the details look flat, and you generally have to recombine the blue channels (of the original normal map, and new details) in order for the new stuff to sit properly on the mesh, without losing the Z information. but if you want quick results, paint it up in PS, you may just like it enough to not model it later
The trick with the PS filter is though, its tricky to get it off of a thin "deep" sheet, and add more to the bevel (ex, an added groove or plate). you can blur the edges, or use the Stroke layer style set to Shape Burst to bevel the edges a little more.
once you get a broad sense of what the mesh detail is in the normal, you can add a lot of textural (chainmail, crosshatches, etc) stuff in the texture itself outside of a 3d app.
Cool mesh though, i dig the chest metal surfaces, and minor stickers. the armor is very solid feeling.
one slight thing to watch for are the scratched areas. If its going to be that beat to shit in those areas, the armor is probably old, and has more of the initial surface wearing thin/wearing down, which would add some more lighter, or smoother areas.
and with the additional details, you could add some latches, extra panels, dinks, cuts, grooves, and minor designy stuff to it in PS.
this is probably a spotty reply........................ but wanted to toss some stuff in.
ps: oh yeah, make that first image not as freakin wide. at 1920 i still had to scroll horizontally to read the thread. AAAAAAAAAAAH. :P
- Sorry to ask - what is the purpose for Z information? - Haven't had need to use it
- Another thing. I have noticed Nvidia filter doesn't actually handle big sphere like surfaces to be converted into normal format...(seems like sampling of depth is limited to relatively small areas) have to test it more anyway...
- Thanks for tips!
i guess you could use it for paralax info.... but its a pretty crappy base for that stuff, since the blue chan is purely edges and creases. best just to use a Depth Map render for that jazz.
adjusting the blue channel's levels slightly from the initial normal map generation will pop forms out a little better than what you get 'out of the box.' you can over do it though, should never have a lot of black in the blue chan, but it will help when dropped in engine - forms pop a lot nicer.
what i meant with losing the information in the blue channel before, is when you set a new layer to Overlay (such as a texture bump, extra lines, shapes, scratches, etc), over the original normal map, it (Overlay) kills the blue information and you have to put it back together after combining the new stuff. it is my prefered way of merging details together. The result of not fixing this doesnt change a shitload, but once you put the blue channel back in, you will notice a world of difference.
it (blue chan) also works as a nice base in the diffuse, colorized, multiplied, and faded slightly.
and yeah - the nvidia filter SUUUUUUUUCKS for sphere, you end up with a cone shape most of the time. best just to push the sphere button in your fav. modelling app and render out a normal map sphere texture for yourself to drop onto any other texture. smudging the nipple (huh huh huh) of the PS sphere works ok, also if you scale that sucker down to 2-4 px, you can never usually tell its a cone.
you can reverse the direction an object is displayed by inverting its x/y channels (you can invert z, just gotta play with the levels to axe the black, and make white).
- Thanks!
Someone was asking these....
- Here is polycount and texture info. I guess i could just shrink textures 2x for body and head, but anyway, i only use work textures on models now...less file saving to do.
- Some changes in face and face texture.
High resolution mesh:
about 500,000 polys when frozen if remember correctly. Some z-brushing on details here and there.
Lowpoly mesh:
5560 for character.
800 for weapon (or less)
2048 col/spe/nor for body
1024 col/spe/nor for head
512 col/spe/nor for weapon
512 col/spe/nor for knife, grenades and pockets
- Additional tests which i rendered today. Some movement for test purposes.
Turn Table Anim 1
Turn Table Anim 2
High Resolution Mesh in Silo
Image from Animation 1:
Image from Animation 1:
- Would you like to see him posing in davinci pose, with no expression at all, and no weapon, no lighting?
- Sorry, i wish i had more skill and time, i honestly wonder why my model's trigger every now and then so hostile sounding comments...? I don't call other people's work "color vomit" i they don't have good colors, or "stick man" if it's not well proportioned. I like critique when it's written in normal mood. I does only help me - I know. Most of the time writer is right, and there is always something to do better!
I guess you just had to put that tone in your talk i guess for some reason.
- I wonder how some people get ever work, when they talk like that. I have been literally kicked into head, yet i don't feel like people should behave like that.
- Well anyway i guess it's just best shut up here. Can't change the world.
dig the change in color of the jumpsuit, the green is nice. maybe some higher spec'ed stripes or something on the fabric could give him a little more character? maybe even some unique stitchings/fabric seams on it, like the pants are some crazy cargo pants instead of being really uniform?
dont want to keep throwing stuff out - you know what you like and dont like, and the model is how it is because you want it that way
and do some enviro stuff *cough*
Might be able to find something so you could have that all important income.
I know how it feels being broke. Right now my rent and bills are far more than I earn, hopefully change at the end of the month.
Think with the right influence of artists around you, could really start to really stand out. I mean as far as your portfolio goes, not just the work but who's used your work it is extremely strong.
Given your having trouble, I'd guess your pretty much like me with no formal art education (the all important 3year Degree). Stupid how quite a lot of companies require that, but I suppose atleas they can assume you know everything rather than hoping you do.
Tell you what the best way to go about it is to get some experience under your belt in a development pipeline situation. You know, like work on a Modification game that actually reaches release. Shows you can work in a team in a real-world environment. (or rather with a real-game environment heh)
So it shows understanding and adaptation around technology.
Just a thought. Doing that for my own portfolio right now, started it last week before realising I was just making random peices that really couldn't be used in anything without serious editing. Good show of skill but nowt helping actually show ability to work around engines.
So yesterday started tinkering with the Source Engine. Gonna make some media around that, some environments, prefabs, textures, characters, weapons etc.. Should show a better light of the work I'm capable of.
There are plenty of modification groups out there looking for people. I started my own cause, well most project leaders don't have a clue about how things need to be done. No offense to those guys out there who are focusing projects, it's definately a hard job to do. Still thier lack of experience can cause slow-downs in what work they want you to do, something even just telling you to wing-it.
Need to be some more structured things going on. Black Mesa Source seems to have that right now. Think they were looking for artists too. Might've been level modellers, not entirely sure. Still good experience for a resum
I sent you PM.
Moose:
"unique stitchings/fabric seams on it, like the pants are some crazy cargo pants instead of being really uniform"
- Yep, would help. I will at least sharpen bevel on seam, which isn't actually very visible at the moment.
"do another normal mapped dude! gogogo!"
- Was already thinking about that seriously
"and do some enviro stuff *cough"
- Well i guess i *really* should
Scott
Great work as always Sami. I feel there's something about the whole hips/upper leg area that it a little off, but perhaps its just his pose. The main thing that stands out to me is the boots look like they're on the wrong feet. They're perhaps not kidney shaped enough like footwear tends to be. A minor crit of a great quality model though.
I really like the design you gave to the armor, it's very...functionnal, realistic, of course, normalmapping is more suited for heavily detailed stuff as this tend to pop out details, but used wisely as you did, it can be really nice... it's like subsurface scattering, when you can clearly see it, then it means it's overused...
anyways, good stuff again