Getting that first gig

demoncage

Hi.

I was reading the "once you are in" thread started by Prs-Phil so thought I would take the opportunity to gain some further insight on actually getting into the industry.

I've been applying/interviewing with companies for the last several months but still haven't landed a gig yet. So I'm curious, how many interviews did you go through before landing that first job? Were you fairly selective in the process or did you grab the first thing that came along? As game development is far more specialized now, what are the chances of breaking in as a character artist? or do you recommend taking a world/environment artist position as an initial route to that goal?

My personal plight so to speak: I'm trying to break in as a character artist and feel I have the skill for it but the market for this seems very protected, and more reserved for senior artists with extensive game experience. I've been led on a couple times to think I was interviewing to be a character artist when in fact the company needed an environment artist and offered this as a means to a character position. While I have become more open to this route, I'm still indecisive as it could very well delay entry into my desired field.

I'll leave it there to start with. Just want to hear some opinions on the matter.

Thanks for any replies.

-Erik

Rick Stirling

We need to dig up the old thread about this that Ror started. I'm not sure how up to date the version is on Doc Robs site.

JO420

The way i see it demon is the same way i see the playboy mansion,if they dont let you in through the front door take the service door and work your way to where you wanna be.

FatAssasin

Here's my advice if your highest priority is just getting into the industry, take whatever job you can get, most probably as an environment artist.

Here's my advice if your highest priority is to be a character artist, create nothing but characters, use normal maps, get your characters into a game engine, compare your characters with the best out there and make sure you can match or beat that quality. If you get good enough, and by good I mean unbelievably amazing, then you'll get snatched up based on skill alone, without the need for experience.

The first way is the most common, but it all comes down to your own personal priorities.

JO420

check out polycounters Daz's website to give you an idea of why you have to start out at a different position and work your way up

skankerzero

The main thing with character artists, is that there's usually very few of them compared to environement artists. There's always so much more that needs to be built for the environment.

That's where your bottleneck is. You usually have to come in as an environment artist and wait for your opening, though, there are the rare occasions where you can plug directly into the character team without previous experience.

I went in as a character / environment artist at my first place. It was a tiny company, so it was easy for me to do characters. I got my experience there, they went out of business, then I came here, and have been doing main characters ever since.

Often times, those little companies that don't produce anything you've heard of are a good place to start.

oh, and to answer your question, I went through uncountable rejection letters before I got my first interview. They hired me immediately. After they went out of business, I went through another interview here. So in total, I've only ever been through 2 interviews.

Slayerjerman

Its the same ordeal as trying to be a lead designer. Its a very competitive position where experienced veterans are usually already residing.

You need to start thinking of something lower-scale, something entry level. Environmental art is a good aproach. Then once you are in, then you can start trying to migrate into doing characters.

Otherwise you might be waiting a VERY long time for an oppertunity.

rawkstar

Yup, I started as an environment guy, it sucked like you wouldn't believe, but I learned alot of important things about the industry, about work ethic, about companies in general, made some badass connections and I can't say it wasn't worth it. it was totally worth it, don't expect to do all the most badass stuff right off the bat, get in, look around, see what its like, once you're done figure out where you want to go, if characters is still your main goal, do NOTHING BUT that in your spare time. You must be very good if you want to beat out the competition for character jobs.

It takes awhile for interviews to start turning into jobs, took me good 6 months, but that was mostly figuring out how to even pass interviews ehehehehe, my first one was the worst ofcourse, once you do enough of them you know how to get in and sell yourself. Its hard doing that without any experience though, so I recommend getting at least some experience as an artist in the industry, take what comes your way, but be realistic, don't take jobs that won't pay enough for you to survive

good luck.

pogonip

I would imagine enviroment artist jobs pay well ?? I hardly see any good enviroment artists compared to character artists ...

The enviroment artist thing is wierd for me anyways .. I mean for characters it's simple you find a concept and you build the character to the best of your ability model,uv,texture,done...how do you go about building a level ?? How many levels do you need to build before you should send out a portfolio ... how do you show off a level/enviroment ? I mean I would imagine I could build a Half Life 2 level with cars,tree's,buildings..etc etc but is 1 level enough if it's pretty huge ??

Anyways demoncage after looking at your portfolio I think you just need more and better quality stuff to be honest . Finished models and a variety like maybe some normal mapped soldier models,some creatures,maybe a fantasy character...Look at what that guy S-S is doing the quality and how fast he models . It's not only tough to get a game job but then you have to keep it so you have to be good and you have to be fast . Also take a look at spacemonkeys fat baron that's a quality model ..or Glen Southerns or Pixolators models...do stuff at that quality and you'll get a job for sure !

squatedbug

Hmmm, I landed this job right after I applied via a post here at polycount. Working for a small developer in Holland. This was my 1st time I applied anywhere, and after 10 minutes I was hired.

Not to be arrogant, but I'm good at what I do, and with not much competition it was probably a easy choice for them anyway. So here I am, my 1st gig, leadcharacter artist.

Great opportunity for me to learn the ropes here. Great experience to take with me into the future.

demoncage

Thanks for all the replies, points well taken. I should introduce another element into this: preference for genre/type of work. I probably could have worked at the first place I interviewed with as a next gen character artist but ended up not pursuing it because I just didn't find the prospective character art to be all that interesting. There was another instance of this that I squndered for pretty much the same reason. Can anyone relate to that?

shankzero, you make a valid point about character artists being a smaller circle and therefore more competitive. Its been pretty much my exact assumption when I see the lack of vacancies out there for character work.

FatAssasin, I think I'm leaning towards the latter of those two options. I think its possible to break into the field without going the environment route. I also tend to think it would be a faster route but its all so unpredictable. The only reason I say that is because you would have to make a somewhat long term commitment to environment art I'd assume before you tried to snake your way into a character seat. But this is just preconcieved, I have no experience so...

[ QUOTE ]
Not to be arrogant

[/ QUOTE ] Too late. Nah, just messin with you man. By the way do you have some work you could send me, I'd be interested to check it out.

FatAssasin

It's just my own personal philosophy, but if you're just starting out in the biz and someone offers you a job, take it. Even if the art you're creating isn't that exciting to you personally, you'll learn a ton and you'll get the all important "industry experience" on your resume. You can always start looking for another job while you're still working on the boring stuff.

And just remember also, even you land a job where you're creating exactly the kind of characters you like, the next project at that company may be something entirely different. Are you going to quit everytime a company changes projects and you don't find the new one all that interesting? If you're good enough I guess you could get away with that, but overall you're just going to have to learn to suck it up and find something interesting in whatever your given to do. Because when you're working for a living you can't always pick and choose what you want to work on.

Of course, there are companies that specialize in a certain kind of game, and ones that would be cool to work at no matter what they're doing. So I'd try and work my way into one of those for the long term, but for the short term take what you can get.

JO420

i agree fat,when you get drafted into the majors you wont immidietly pitch in the world series,gotta work your way up

rawkstar

pogonip: Evironment jobs don't pay well. Building environment stuff = building props or level pieces, you don't build whole levels. basically what you do is you still model and texture the same way u'd do anything else only you're making level props.

demoncage: I mean look, the way I described getting into the industry WORKS, you guys may think what you want thats your prerogative, but getting in as a character artist at a good company at the start is extremely difficult. It rarely has anything to do with how good you are, I thought I was good when I was looking for my first gig and didn't want anything to do with environment art, I won the best model award in the make something unreal contest beating out DH/Skullbox and Hyper and all those guys, and that still didn't do shit to get me a character job. Theres other factors there other than being good, and speaking of being good, once you get in, theres a whole new level of competition, and you have deadlines you can't just sit there and doodle on something till you're happy with it, you'll get like a day to do a next gen head model and texture and everything has to be final and ready to be put in the game. Experience is important as well, it helps. And seriously theres alot people don't know about the industry when they're not in it. If someone offers you a job, take it.

Style wise... well... for my first gig I'd take whatever as long as its not like a barbie game or unicorns and crap. Don't be too picky, cuz quite honestly you don't have much to bargain with, you have no prior experience and as much as you'd like to think that it doesn't matter, it does. Not everyone is going to get to build badass next gen space marines and monsters all day long. Take what you can, you won't be getting into id or epic for your first job, no one does. But I leave it up to you.

John Warner

hah-HAH! environment artist! over here, too!

they quite liked my character art, called me in for an interview, i got along well with the interviewers, they offered me a position. (this is relic i'm talking about)

before that, however, i was also working as a character artist for liquid development a teeny bit.. which doesn't quite stand out in a resume as much as an in house position, so i took a cut in pay and a BIG reduction of fun heh and went from being a character artist to an environment artist hahah.

I will say, the first interview i had was with bioware, and i totaly botched it because i guess i was way to casual, and gave the impression taht i didn't really care, when i did. in the seccond interview, with relic, i was wayyy less casual, but it might not have mattered, because my co-worker got a job with a big "FUCK OFF" t-shirt on hahaha

anyway, i just figgured i'd share my personal story cuz you might be able to get something out of it.

i found that getting a job in this industry was much like any other. if your art is good enough, of course, you'll have an easier time, but it's still difficult when you have no work experience, and quite frankly, pretty frustrating. keep at it, keep building up your portfolio to match what people are looking for, and good luck, i guess!

okkun

I go though the job submissions myself at my co and for me the most important thing is quality of arwork.

The problem however is that 80% of the emails I get when posting a job take me 5 minutes to get to the actual artwork; huge zipped file, slow website, poor website design or too long of an email to even bother reading etc.

We get about 80 replies to each job posting. We're a pretty small and fairly unknown company. Imagine going through the mail for applications sent to Epic, Valve or some other popular destination for artists.

Sure they have people screening the submissions but at some point an artlead/director has to take some of their valuable time to look at it.

Also, I can't tell you how many artists start their portfolio with a shitty looking character when they have plenty of good environment art that might get them into the industry. If you've got weak artwork don't even put it on your site.

So to make a long story short. Make it really easy for the person recruiting to form an opinion without jumping through hoops.

doc rob

Rick, here it is:

http://www.planetquake.com/polycount/cottages/docrob/industry.html

I definitely gave up trying to keep it up to date at some point. It needs a new custodian to adopt it, cuddle it, and help it grow. For the good of the industry

pogonip

High Quality art can win over anything . I think that if your exceptional at anything you want to do you will get a job doing it . Take Kolby Jukes from cgtalk for example . I remember him posting his character reel from VFS about a year ago or so and now he is a Senior Character modeler at Raven on Quake 4 . It just goes to show that a kick ass portfolio can get you in the door even without experience .

Right now I work day and night on making my work stand out at that level and I never show it off cause I know im not there yet, but when I get there I'll start showing some people in private and when they agree im at that level you see in the top games like Gears of War,DOA 5 ..etc etc i'll bring it online ..I think a huge problem with people outside of the industry is that they are so eager to break in that they are not self aware and honest with themselves about there own skill level ..anyways great read Doc ROb and great advice from others !

Ruz

I think. that quality of artwork 'should' be the most important thing.
I think there are still way too many companies who are looking for the wrong qualities in their artists.
I would n't say I am the best character 'modeller' out there, but my texturing skills have done me proud so far.
I do environments and characters, but now we are doing next gen stuff, I will be specialising in characters/heads for the time being.

Rick Stirling

No, quality of artwork is NOT the most important thing. I'd hire a good artist with a good personality who'd fit into my team, rather than a shit hot amazing artist who would clash with the people already there.

And I'd be willing to bet that most studios feel the same, and most folk here in the industry do too.

poopinmymouth

Agreed with Rick Stirling. The most important thing is helping the team, which is a package deal. Being able to make art that *fits*, being able to communicate and be a helpful teammember. Almost every studio is like this. A cohesive team is way more important than a hotshot artist that sits alone and doesn't get a long.

okkun

Rick is absolutely right. There's some really talented artists out there that I wouldn't touch with a stick.

However, personality isn't going to get you very far if you don't get the interview, which is why I think it's really important to have a good presentation. And by that I mean good and simple. Skip the flash page with 2 minutes of loading time.

okkun

I want to make clear I meant that in general. I think Demoncage's website is great. The first thing I see is the art. It's very obvious to me what kind of position he would be suited for.

Kevin Johnstone

okkun: yeah, 2 full mins to watch a turn around of a model i weighed up and dismissed within 30seconds is very annoying and the classical score does not hold back my anger one iota.

Seriously folks, if you are reading, i just want to see your shit, i dont want to be forced to watch your representation of what you hope is the level of awe that your presentation will inspire in the viewer.

If I hear one more lord of the rings style build track while an average model rotates for 2mins i WILL kill someone!!!

r,

Rick Stirling

Oh yeah - there was a show reel I say that showed a walk cycle with no variation - just a 3/4 prespective view for 30 seconds. Yes, I know walk cycles are important, but I saw that it could loop after 5 seconds.

squatedbug

http://pesti.ichian.org/ link to old work, even with all the stuff in my folio. In a rough version that is.

okkun

Squatedbug,

That's on the opposite end of the spectrum. I get many submissions like this too. Link to a web folder is almost worse than a slow website.

It sounds lazy but the reality is that if I'm busy, a page like this would get the x or alt-f4 after clicking on one image.

If that one image wasn't what I was looking for, on to the next submission.

kolbyjukes

yeah, as others have mentioned, being a 'team player' is the most important thing...but at the same time, if you're looking to break into the industry, it's my experience that having a hot shit portfolio is the best way to get companies to sit up and take notice. However, having said that, being an awesome artist will only get you in the door, if you wanna stay around you gotta learn to work well with your fellow artists.

And about having to start as a level artist and work your way up...I know a lot of people that have jumped right out of school into character/creature artist positions at major studios (mostly hi-poly guys) - so, yeah....it's possible.

cheers,
-Kol.

Rick Stirling

On a website portfolio - floor the viewer in one glance. That means BIG thumbnails. Limit their choice to 3-4 fantasic thumbs, with perhaps text links to a few variations.

Then provide them with more choices using smaller thumbs, or a link to see more.

I think Pior has one of the best portfolio websites out there.

PaK

depending on the culture of the studio I geuss, but in my expierence QA is a bad way to get in.

QA is like the plague. No one cares what happened to you before QA, once you've been QA'ed you can just kiss your hopes of being treated as part of the team goodbye (In all the cases I have seen)

Many QA guys I've known have been waiting for their opportunity to break-in, and have yet to make the transition.

It's totally 'possible' tho, as this isn't the first time I've seen a paturn and heard otherwise from my co-workers and their expierence. Only 10 mins ago my entire art team gave me funny looks when I mentioned that I've never worked in a pipeline where level designers didn't have the final say and responsibility concerning lighting and framrates associated with them...so....hey, each place is different.

-R

Daz

It's perfectly feasible to get a first gig in a character dept. As far as I'm concerned it's about your body of work first and foremost. Because that's what gets you in to places for interview. THEN comes personality and how you're perceived at interview. As you know I think you have what it takes Erik. Perhaps the planets just haven't aligned for you in the right way, but keep at it.

Furthermore, I wouldn't necessarily view being young and inexperienced as much of a disadvantage as you might think. Some companies are actively seeking young blood for obvious reasons.

p.s good to see you here Kolby

p.p.s did you just reply to the wrong thread or something PaK? ;-p

Thermidor

I found the best way to make it though the interview stage is to be really nervous, concentrate on the things you cant do very well , and critisise your own work as much as posable. remember to fumble around in your senences to give that impression you dont know what you are talking about.

definately forget to tell the interviewer you know anything technical.

hey , it worked for me.

okkun

Being nervous is not a problem. I find people who aren't are usually full of themselves.

Thermidor

im always extremly self critical (to a fault), and i think that was my biggest trouble.

Slayerjerman

Ross your a tard. QA is a good place to get your foot in the door and make internal contacts. Alot of people in the biz started that way.

oXYnary

The artist I know who are going that route Slayer envitably still had to drop out of QA to get a art educational background or work on their portfolio. Its not like they got to enter right from QA into a art position.

Slayerjerman

Quitting a job to pursue education or another job is one thing. But I am sure he learned atleast *soemthing* in being in QA. Its not a dead-end path unless you make it that way for yourself is all im saying...

(im up for a possible promotion and already got a raise. so its not like QA is completely stupid career path)

Thermidor

QA in a games dev is still a job in a games dev, so surly it would be better than a job that isnt even in the right direction.

squatedbug

To Okkun: I'm sorry I didn't make it clearer, but that's just a old site where I dump stuff, (like the folio materials), it's not the actual portfolio that I've send away

demoncage

Thanks everyone for taking time out to reply and give your piece. The sum of all the opinions is anarchy but I guess I expected as much. It turned out to be a really informative thread though and pretty much everyone replying has landed a job so obviously I can't scoff at the advice.

So, after mulling it over pretty thouroughly, I think I see it like this. Like with everything, time is an issue. So, while taking on environment work could be a more surefire way to get my foot in the door and eventually take a character job, thats still time I could have been working on character art on my own and getting better, which is more important to me as an artist and would eventually lead to a job. And the former method of getting there is in no way more valid than the latter. I think why world art is even a consideration for me is wrought out of having to work shit jobs and seeing any entry into the industry as a relative paradise. I'm not trying to make any less of evironment art with that statement btw. It takes alot of dedication and skill but its just not my aim personally.

About the whole having to meet or exceed the best of the best in order to get a job as a charcter artist, I don't see that as being necessarily true. Obviously it would more or less assure someone a spot in the industry somewhere so its a good aim to have, but I don't think I should feel deterred from marketing myself right now. My skills are at a level now that I have been able to grab the attention of some companies, so why not keep going, and of course add artwork to the site and improve along the way.

Anyway, cool thread. Greatly appreciate you guys taking time out to respond.

-Erik

spacemonkey

demoncage you do good stuff, make sure you finish things off and be certain to texture them too. You'll get a job, so just stick with it

PaK

heh, tons of "hey not always the case' in my post yet i still get yelled at. I didnt say it was impossible Jerry, accually i spacifically said it wasn't impossible. I wasn't talking about being promoted as QA, rather using that "QA foot-in-the-door" as a way into art production. Don't take it so personal dude.

I won't argue that you can learn something from QA, I think it's fantastic exp infact. the problem I was describing wqas the unfair rap that QA gets from the rest of the developers in a studio-like environment, and how that lack of respect is in some cases (please read those italics Jerry, you missed my emphasis last time) even worse than no contacts at all.

And don't call me a tard, I'm co-ordinationally challeneged :P

-R

pogonip

[ QUOTE ]
demoncage you do good stuff, make sure you finish things off and be certain to texture them too. You'll get a job, so just stick with it

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Spacemonkey . Just from friends ive made in the industry and talking with people and reading things ive noticed that your 2D skills can sometimes be the biggest factor on weither you get a job or not over another person. Some guy might model as good or better then you but just have decent texturing and 2D skills ..being that most Art Directors ive talked to come from a 2D background i'd say they would go for the better person with 2D skills ..I know I would also what good is a model without a excellent texture ?