Liberty and Justice are just the words that the middle class use to fool the working class into aiding them into usurping the present upper class before leaving the working class sitting in the same shit they always have!
heh, looks like the "Working Class" will have plenty to do after cleaning up the mess the protesters created, End Bush's Reign of Terror!!!! and clean up this mess!!
Gotta love the anti-bush sentiment at a 'End Poverty' march. Typical shit really. People should be holding pics of Kerry stabbing people in the back as well.
Looks like you had a great time for a great cause though, Rick. Too bad that poverty is impossible to eliminate. We can always hope though.
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Gotta love the anti-bush sentiment at a 'End Poverty' march. Typical shit really. People should be holding pics of Kerry stabbing people in the back as well.
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In case you missed it Vassago, the election ended last November and Kerry lost. So Bush is the one still fucking the world over, not Kerry.
It's funny really. You neo-cons are so desperate to have a member of the democratic party to throw hate-filled rhetoric at that you will direct it at the last guy the dems put up to run for President. It's a shame for all of you that Kerry didn't win so at least spewing shit about him would kinda make sense.
Don't forget to mention that Clinton got a blow-job while you're at it.
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Maybe you should try taking some of your own advice:
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I can spout all over here, about Kerry being a lier, and a rat, which he is. Or how Micheal Moore is a complete fabricator of shit, who LOVES putting words into other people's mouths. But have I ever done if before? No. It's pointless. It only ignites a political debate that can ever end, because each side thinks THEY are right.
Astro - not sure what you're trying to imply there, as I bash every politician, not just democrats. And thanks for the quote - yea, I somehow forgot what I had said....
I mark complaints about both sides, so I'm not trying to ignite a debate about anything. I said I agree with both pov's, end of story.
Oxynary - If you can show me one reasonable politician, I'll ask them
What I'm trying to imply? I have yet to see you bash every politician. The only thing that I've seen from you is a post asking people not to bash Bush and then a couple of open jabs at John Kerry (who, as I pointed out LOST the election last November - it's done, over with, get over it, your guy WON FFS) and an open jab at Michael Moore. You can pretend to be a fence sitter all you want but it's pretty transparent where your political ideals lie. I for one have infinitely more respect for people who take a stand and are open about it than wishy-washy types who pretend to not have any affiliations what-so-ever. If you want to spend equal time bashing both sides, I'd love to see it. So far I've only seen you bash one side while asking folks not to bash the other.
The most amusing thing about that post is how you took the opportunity to bash people in the political arena while claiming to have never bashed anyone. And now you are saying you bash everyone?
I'm not trying to spark a debate here as much as just call you on your BS. If you really are trying to figure out where your political affiliations lie maybe you should just take some of your own advice (once again) and not make political comments and stay out of political discussions all together
To get it back on track, it was a great day out. It was a nice warm sunny Day, and 220,000 people were there. It was a great peaceful day, and hopefully will have made some impact.
Povert isn't impossible to eliminate, it'll just be VERY VERY VERY difficult. But what do you?
Ignore it?
So that in 50 years when my grandchildren ask me "Granda, what did you do when 50,000 people a day were dying of poverty?" I'll be able to say "Ach, I couldnt be arsed. I stayed in the house and played games"
"But a child like me was dying every 3 seconds because they couldn't eat or didn't have medicine!" I can reply - "Oh their governments were corrupt, not my fault".
Yes, there are corrupt governemnts out there who siphon off aid and use money to buy guns (who sells them the guns?) and let there citizens die.
But if a child came to your door and hadn't eaten in 3 weeks, you'd feed it. You wouldn't say "I gave your dad 20 quid to feed you, if he didn't, it's not my fault."
It's not just poverty in Africa, it's people dying in every country through malnourishment and disease, including the UK and the USA. It's probably more digusting in develoed countries, where poeple really have no excuse to allow that to happen.
It's the 21st Century. No-one should be dying because they are poor, yet 10s of thousands do. EVERY DAY.
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Gotta love the anti-bush sentiment at a 'End Poverty' march. Typical shit really. People should be holding pics of Kerry stabbing people in the back as well.
Looks like you had a great time for a great cause though, Rick. Too bad that poverty is impossible to eliminate. We can always hope though.
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It is impossible to eliminate stupid comments like that.
I would like to quote JFK here "Our problems are manmade and can be man solved" (should be about right ) ... and no "Pak", not by giving cops guns. (that is another ignorat post)
around 200.000 people, that is a statement, either the "middleclass" is getting bigger or the people really wan't to say something.
Yeah the poor working class will be bashed by the police to do 12 hour shifts to do a job that they are forced to do to clear up mess "they" didn't make.
Get a grip, a society is not divided into black and white. (maybe in the US :P ) but there is a big smooth greyzone that you can't really defin in beginning and end.
I also don't understand this sentiment towards the "middleclass" beeing mindless and having nothing to say. What are you then ? rich, poor ? you go to the cinema, buy games, spend money on cars, computers, things you think are worth spending on, etc. etc. etc.
On what do you base your "knowlege" on anway.
It seems to me you just like to rant, take simple paroles that you can easyly identiefy yourselfs with and act like nothing that is happening around you has really anything to do with you. It is trendy to a political and socially ignorat ? it seems to me it is again
Well I guess until you have expierenced a situation of poverty, strong health issue, war or somehow start thinking past your own ignorance and predujice (spelling) you will never change.
I personally believe this "end poverty" shit is bollocks. Whilst my views don't go down well with some people, I believe diseases should be the greater need. You find cures for diseases such as AIDS - countries like Africa are instantly better off. It sounds harsh but getting rid of debt of a country that is what, 95% AIDS? How does that help anyone. If people feel they need to go along with this, I'm fine with that - I just think people think its the saviour to help all mankind when infact, its not. Its actually a very limited thing- where as diseases is everyone.
Astro - You can call all you want, I know where I stand.
Rick - Ending poverty is as likely as attaining world peace. And I never said ignore it. I've given time to helping shelters, and I make yearly donations to several groups. I'd absolutely love it if it dissapeared, but it's just not likely.
Prs-Phil - I grew up extremely poor. My mother alone, was rasing 3 kids on $900 a month. We wore shit clothes that fell apart quickly, and ate mostly bread & spam, if we were lucky. I brought myself up from that, to where I am today. I'm the only person in my family, extended or not, who has really succeeded. So don't sit there and preach to me, or call me ignorant. I simply stated that ideal of eliminating poverty 100% is false. It's not possible. We can sure as hell try our best, but it won't eliminate it completely.
thnom: The main problem is that if anyone finds the cure they demand outrageous prices for it and prevents anyone else from helping these people by using patents. Imagine there was a medicine that would cure AIDS or cancer, what do you think the pharma industry would charge for it? And how many africans that need it could afford it?
What I wonder about are those "poor" people begging in the streets here (though there are stories about them not really being as poor as they look but not all are begging, the guy who drinks from softdrinks someone threw into a garbage bin clearly isn't out for the money). We have a functioning social system that will pay even the greatest idiots and eats up half the wage of the working population, why don't these people use that? Or why don't they get money? Severe misconduct?
Poverty i believe is endable and is something this world should strive for.
There is something to be said about bad people who do bad things to others,but even more to be said about good people who watch it and do nothing. This is a big world full of many resources and i do think it is enough to provide for each other unfortunatly human greed and barriers stand in the way of this.
Ending poverty is in our self interest as well,because historiclly it has been a major cause of war,if the people of Germany in the 1930's wouldnt have been living in the harsh conditions imposed on them by the Versailles treaty would they have ever allowed such an extremist as Adolf Hitler to rise? In extreme times extreme leaders rise and the world pays for it.
As one person mentioned that disease should be ended first,well i disagree,when you raise people out of poverty many things change in society,for starters it creates more educated people who can avoid these diseases much better through education and when the standard of living raises for a society so does the clenliness and over time preventable diseases begin to decline.
I am an American and around the world some people may be under the mistaken impression that Americans dont care,well thats not true (unfortunatly i can speak for all americans on this), what affects the world affects this country,if we dont work to resolve these problems it will lead the the same destructive cycle as we have seen in history and as Albert Einstein said " i dont know what world war 3 will be fought with but world war four will be fought with sticks and stones"
My conscience does not afford me the type of callousness i see too much, when i go pay gas or get angry because the girl at starbucks screwed up my drink it doesnt last long because it is nothing compared to problems of other people around the world.
Poverty will always exist, just like the filthy rich. But the percentage of those in poverty can be lowered. And methods can be set in motion to prevent it from escalating.
The whole city's infested with hippies. I hope they all disperse before my hour-long bus ride to work tomorrow morning.
War is inevitable, there's nothing you can do to ensure war will never occur. The country that refuses to fight or defend themselves will soon be obliterated if they are holding onto anything valuable at all. Of course we can end poverty, I don't see how it's 'human nature' like war and aggression is. And of course ending poverty isn't about erasing debts and throwing money at the poverty-stricken countries. The whole 'teach a man to fish' saying applies here. That's why Bill Gates' plan to supply such countries with computers isn't ridiculous at all. Enable them to support and sustain their own economies and they'll eventually be able to look after themselves. Poverty-stricken countries need a helping hand to get them out of the slump. Just because it's been going on for decades now doesn't mean it's fruitless to try and help - it just means it doesn't happen overnight.
There is a shitload of money out there but it matters how it's divided up. Everyone's heard the argument about a minute percentage of military budgets going to better causes, because it's very true. It won't make a difference to the security of the countries we all live in, but it'd make a huge difference to those living in poverty. At the moment, though, I'm living in poverty and barely living paycheck to paycheck, so the damn hippies better not be holding up the public transport tomorrow morning.
... and no "Pak", not by giving cops guns. (that is another ignorat post)
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I apologize. Sorry Phil/Rick I was being silly, I was tryna take a stab Rick just for fun to tease him :P So I guess I should write a serious post now.
In all seriousness, I don't really think this planet can support 6 billion people. this is the real issue in regrads to starvation and poverty.
The definition of poverty is often misconstrued. It is less the decadece of western society and moreso the overpopulation and poor education of 3rd world countries.
I think my parents left India and Pakistan for a good reason, because they knew they'd have a difficult time carving out an existence in a place that was colapsing under it's own weight. My Mom was displaced by the war and separation of India into Pakistan and India. My mom grew up in the most disgusting environmnet, is aw it on a trip when i was toung, it scared the crap out of me. They had a cloth roof.
I don't see it as the greedy wasteful westerners who so much as a number of nations and cultures who have grown beyond their ability to sustain themselves. To say that the west is 'completely' to blame is a little too convieninet once you read history and find out why places like India have starving people. They have starvation because they have waaaaay to many people.
The reasons are complicated, and there are many. Most of it comes down to having die-hard and outdated cultural beliefs.
-The idea that sons are ore precious then daughters is one.
-Western traders bringing medicines and not teaching contraception during colonial times.
-The more children you have, the greater the chance that one of them will take care of you (My Dad was the only kid on his block without sisters)
War and economics play a huge part in poverty, and to say that all poverty is caused by over-population would be wrong aswell. The fact remains that the majority of the starving poor are not located in wartorn nations.
The wheels of change are in motion and almost nothing will stop asia from becoming the economic power of this milenium. As these countries develop at this incredible rate 2 things will happen that will diminish poverty:
-They will have the money, power and influence to leverage the work of existing developed nations.
-They will educate their young who will have less children and the newer generations won't be unsustainable.
I'm sure there are tons of factors I'm not aware of...let the hole-poking begin!
Astro - You can call all you want, I know where I stand.
Rick - Ending poverty is as likely as attaining world peace. And I never said ignore it. I've given time to helping shelters, and I make yearly donations to several groups. I'd absolutely love it if it dissapeared, but it's just not likely.
Prs-Phil - I grew up extremely poor. My mother alone, was rasing 3 kids on $900 a month. We wore shit clothes that fell apart quickly, and ate mostly bread & spam, if we were lucky. I brought myself up from that, to where I am today. I'm the only person in my family, extended or not, who has really succeeded. So don't sit there and preach to me, or call me ignorant. I simply stated that ideal of eliminating poverty 100% is false. It's not possible. We can sure as hell try our best, but it won't eliminate it completely.
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Oh, ok sorry about that and good that you made it. Respect to your mother for bringing up the engery and dedication to bring you through.
I am NOT preaching around because I feel like it, and now knowing your history I understand even less how you can support a goverment that is doing even more to make the live of people (like your mum) even harder.
It's just like my grandparents that where driven out of Austria during WWII because they where jewish and my grandma today is still throwing hateparoles towards the arabs and muslims. That is something I can't understand just as much as I don't understand that someone that has been through hard times like you makes political statements like that.
Considering the amount of cash flying around in just your country it is very easy to do the math that a stable social system and care for poor people incl. programs to "resocialize"(giving them a good foundation to live on) them is easyly possible.
Considering the amount of cash flying around in just your country it is very easy to do the math that a stable social system and care for poor people incl. programs to "resocialize"(giving them a good foundation to live on) them is easyly possible.
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Someties at the end of the month I feel hard done by that I don't have enough money to buy a game. But that's because I already bought one earlier int he onth, and went out for dinner 3 times, and went to the cinema and ent to the pub 10 times. I'm not rich. But look what I do with my money AFTER I've paid for my house, food and energy bills.
So sometimes I feel that it's unfair that I don't get paid enough to buy ANOTHER game.
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Considering the amount of cash flying around in just your country it is very easy to do the math that a stable social system and care for poor people incl. programs to "resocialize"(giving them a good foundation to live on) them is easyly possible.
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Can anyone disagree with that statement?
I spent £180 on a meal for myself and Aileen a few weeks ago.
red: The country that refuses to fight or defend themselves will soon be obliterated if they are holding onto anything valuable at all.
There's a difference between defense and attack, Iraq, for example, was clearly a war of aggression.Sure, Bush says it was just defense but Hitler also said "jetzt wird zurückgeschossen!" (now we return fire). Hitler was clearly not defending when he took Poland. What were the US defending themselves against in Vietnam or Iraq? Neither countery was a threat to the US or even the NATO.
Also, there's the difference of how much you're willing to do to avoid war. The EU and the UN attempt diplomacy first, Bush made it very clear he'll attack without attempting to find a peaceful solution (and slagged the UN for not adopting the same policy).
Yes, Bush is a genius. He and his administration use simple words to influence simple people. He prevents the flow of affordable medicine to Africa because of safety issues. It's much safer to die of disease. It's also safer to throw away stem cells instead of using them for research to develope cures for disease. Because throwing them away preserves the miracle of life.
I wouldn't expect a failed business owner who was saved by his oil tycoon family and one day decided to fake a texas accent and lifestyle to bribe his way to political office etc etc... to ever give a damn about the poor no matter what country they're found. The rich only care about their own, that's why they're rich. Sometimes they will forgive the debt of a starving nation. That's the least the could do for humanity.
I can't imagine dying of starvation and poverty, and having someone with loads of money walking up to me and saying "Oh this is so terrible, I wish there was something we could do. But guess what, I'm a movie star in another country, and you're on TV. Isn't that great?"
I can't imagine not wanting to strangle that fat, rich woman. does anyone remember that Southpark episode about "helping the poor africans" or something? "She's hiding all the Cheesy Poofs in that hut!".
[more sarcasm] Yes, who else would be able to come up with the brilliant plan of passing more than $500 billion in tax cuts for the rich in order to supposedly create 1 million new jobs (that's a cost of more than $500,000 per job, for those of us who are capable of simple arithmetic), and then end up with a net loss of jobs while continuing tax cuts into the trillions. Wow, what a great job of stimulating new jobs with tax cuts for the rich. [/more sarcasm]
I'm actually a moderate conservative myself, but I in no way identify with Bush; in my mind, he is not a conservative... he is a big government, federalist, spend spend spend right wing extremist.
Um, isn't that par for the course? Conservatives always increease spending and cut taxes while "socialdemocrats" do the opposite? Germany is in a huge debt that's a leftover of conservative politics 15 years ago.
BTW, where does the term "conservative" come from, anyway? Not conserving worker rights? I know the CDU evolved from CENTRUM, which was a christian fundamentalist party but they don't seem to have kept anything from that time.
'a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change'
Don't see how it doesn't. Like any politician, Bush has made some pretty idiotic decisions, but he hasn't changed anything drastically.
As far as jobs go, I only know of people who have gained jobs, not lost them. At the end of Clinton's administration, the unemployment rate was 3.9% (Dec 2000). When Bush was sworn into office in January, the UER was 4.2%. Problems at the end of Clinton's administration was to blame that that. Through ass-headed management, Bush got that up to 6.3% in his first term. However, as of May this year, he's gotten it down to 5.1%. IMO, any president would've had a hard time after 9/11. It caused a LOT of issues with our economy. Bush could certainly do MUCH better, but things aren't as bad as they were in the Carter/Reagan era (10%+ unemployment). I'm sure things will improve with time (or when the next pres comes into power).
Well, there have been a very significant number of drastic changes:
Gotta give credit where it's due:
-Loads of aid to Africa.
-The avg american is more aware of the international community due to the actions of this administration (awareness is a good thing)
-Amercian petrol prices haven't spiked as high as other western nations.
But there is always a flip side I guess:
-The Patriot Act
-Homeland Security
-Gobs of new national debt
-Aggresive INS policies
-Racial profiling for darkies
-The worst international rap in this nations history
-The blood of tons of brown people in the middle east
-1700+ dead american soldiers who basically are a magnet for terroist activities. I guess the Admin's philosophy is "at least it's not in our backyard"
All in all it balances out i guess, but the truth is Vassago there have been more radical changes in the last 5 years than my entire life in regards to American foriegn and domestic policy.
but that your petrol prices haven't gone up was only possible due to the hard work wich byproduct the last to points of your list are. (missed out starting to drill for oil in alaskan nature parks)
I also wouldn't count your publics awareness as a good thing. From the small amount of people that actually voted (around 60% if I remember) Bush won anyway so they approve of an agressive, militant and selveish foreign policy (if they know what that is or if they even voted because of that) and the rest (the part that didn't) vote doesn't care less, so I personally don't think that the US public has become more aware of real international issues (I´m not saying that they don't care but how free this awareness is another question)
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but that your petrol prices haven't gone up was only possible due to the hard work wich byproduct the last to points of your list are. (missed out starting to drill for oil in alaskan nature parks)
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Actually, I've heard that we actually pay slightly more than most European countries, we just don't tax it nearly as much. If you subtract the taxes from each of our gas prices, there isn't much of a difference in price.
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(if they know what that is or if they even voted because of that)
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Unfortunately, most don't and most didn't. Most of Bush's votes were cast because of fags and jesus . And also because of campaign ads of frightened soccer moms running with their children in their arms away from a terrorist attack (this is not a joke, there was an actual campaign ad like this which asked, in a very somber voice, something like, "Could Kerry protect your Family?").
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The avg american is more aware of the international community due to the actions of this administration (awareness is a good thing)
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Awareness is nothing. 'Awareness' is a way for suburbanites to feel like they're contributing to a solution without actually doing anything. Kind of like protest marches. People fool themselves into thinking they're helping to show everyone that they're better people.
-The Patriot Act
I just read it. Doesn't seem all that bad to me.
-Homeland Security
Would it be better to leave ourselves wide open?
-Gobs of new national debt
We went to war, so this is expected. The economy is mostly recovered from post 9/11 slumps now as well. But yes, it's a lot of debt.
-Aggresive INS policies
Why not? Better than allowing terrorists to slip in unoticed, isn't it?
-Racial profiling for darkies
I don't agree with this one. Unless they are suspect, they should be left alone entirely.
-The worst international rap in this nations history
Disputable. Many world nations disliked us when we broke away from the UK, and gained our independence as well.
-The blood of tons of brown people in the middle east
For civilian casualties, I'm extremely smpythetic. It's a damn shame that innocents have died.
-1700+ dead american
Absolutely a damn shame. We should have gotten Bin Laden and stopped there. I'm glad we took Sadam out though, but we've been there WAY too long. Unfortuneatly, our soldiers are paying for that.
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-Aggresive INS policies
Why not? Better than allowing terrorists to slip in unoticed, isn't it?
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Do terrorists regularly apply for green cards? And if so, I doubt they'd list "terrorist" as an occupation.
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-The worst international rap in this nations history
Disputable. Many world nations disliked us when we broke away from the UK, and gained our independence as well.
-The Patriot Act
Gives authorities the right to search home without your prior knowledge,makes librarians report on the reading habits of americans
-Homeland Security
There been much misappropriations on homeland security,cities like New York are receiving less money per person for homeland security than the people of Kansas Topeka,latest misappropriation was in texas where local goverment officials used homeland security money to buy lawn mowers for lawn mower races.
-Gobs of new national debt
We are in war yes,but never in our history during a time of war has a president given tax cuts,especially tax cuts which benefit the very wealthy
-Aggresive INS policies
most if not all the 9/11 hijackers made it into this country legally
-Racial profiling for darkies
illegal detention, detained but not charged with crimes,add to the the act of extraordinary rendition which US authorities take a person and bring them to a country which has no torture laws for interogation,right now there are 13 arrest warrents in Italy for 13 CIA agents who illegally kidnapped a muslim cleric, he was extradited to egypt where he was tortured,he was released and formal charges were never made.
-The worst international rap in this nations history
pre 911 the people of the world didnt see our president as a great threat to world security and pre 911 world wide polls didnt indicate people are less afraid of China then we United states
-The blood of tons of brown people in the middle east
the people of Iraq have never done harm to any of the people in this country,and i dont mean the people who shot at our soldiers after we invaded nor the first gulf war,there hasnt been any terrorist acts committed by Iraqis,but on the other hand Saudis sure have contributed to many american citizens dieing,why arent we in saudi arabia?
-1700+ dead american
Based on information which said Saddam Hussein was an imminent threat, based on the administration continously telling us Iraq was linked to 9/11 which they werent,or stockpiles of Wmd which were never there, or the fact that no matter what happened in the UN our president was hell bent on attacking. Or a secretary of defense who despite many many miscalculations was not fired,he was given a medal. Now our troops are overcommitted in a country dieing daily,which was never an imminant threat, now Iran has voted an extreme hard liner,has pledged to continue on their nuclear program and is a country which indeed had supported terrorist or north korea which claims to own nuclear weaponry, in terms of imminant threats id have to place North Korea and Iran over that list.
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-The Patriot Act
Gives authorities the right to search home without your prior knowledge,makes librarians report on the reading habits of americans
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**If you're a suspected terrorist or criminal, you should damn well have your house searched/siezed without prior knowledge. If you are either, you don't deserve anything.
As far as reading goes, they have tags on a lot of books, yes. But they've had that for DECADES. If you check out books on nuclear weapons, explosives, anti-terror tactics, etc - you get cataloged. This is nothing new. What they DON'T do, is what most people assume - that they check everyone reading 'home digest' or 'fish and stream'. It's a limited amount of reading material, which is monitored.
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the people of Iraq have never done harm to any of the people in this country...
but on the other hand Saudis sure have contributed to many american citizens dieing,why arent we in saudi arabia?
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**There have been Americans abducted/tortured/executed in Iraq, pre-Bush. Perhaps not in such quantity, but still. You already know the answer to your second question. Oil. You can say it's bullshit all ya like, but this country needs it, so we will never go to war with Saudi Arabia. The entire economy depends on it, so keep that in mind.
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based on the administration continously telling us Iraq was linked to 9/11 which they werent,or stockpiles of Wmd which were never there....or north korea which claims to own nuclear weaponry, in terms of imminant threats id have to place North Korea and Iran over that list.
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**Iraq might not have been directly involved with 9/11, but I still believe they have chemical/bio weapons somewhere in that desert. Does it justify going to Iraq? I don't think so. I agree that they weren't a threat 'currently', but I'm glad Saddam is out. As far as North Korea goes, that's the one thing that REALLY pisses me off about Bush. Clinton got very close to signing agreements with them, and Bush ruined that by calling them an 'axis of evil'. Kim Jong only wants to be recognized as a sovern nation. They might be communist, but given their determination, I'd give them their recognition.
1. the problem is the potential abuse from the patriot act,in the past Fbi has spied on citizens, this leaves a bad loophole open to dig dirt on people who are not terrorist nor criminals just people who oppose the current ruling class,its too broad and too open to abuse. not to mention many of the lawmakers did not have time to fully read this legislation nor debate it. im all for this bill as long a it has checks to prevent potential abuse.
2. what specific instances do you know of americans being abducted,tortured or executed in iraq prior to bush 1 or 2 or in the clinton era before any wars ever occurred? and if there were why werent these given as reasons for war? and we know Saudi Arabia is bad but does that mean we can excuse their support of terror which kills our people because its fuels our economy?
3. You may believe this to be so but none have been found? unlike nuclear you need massive amounts of these weapons to be a real threat 2 or 3 shells of these weapons does not compare to a nuclear warhead,you need tons of it,to produce tons of these weapons you need massive production facilities,you also need massive amount of parts for general maitnence,then you need massive places to store these weapons,warehouses and finally all chemical and bio weapons have short shelf lives(2 years typically) so with US run sanctions which would prohibit anything which could potentially be used to make these weapons, no fly zones,satellite surveillence how was saddam hussein ever supposed to get the river of materials you need to operate and maintain these facilities without ever being bombed by the US or without any solid evidence what so ever? and to add to those already major problems you need a reliable delivery system.
i think Mark Twain nailed it when he said
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it."
Depends what the classification of a terrorist is. From what I understood you fall under this category when you start talking against an administration. To cut burocracy when really needed is not a bad thing but there is a thin line between true meaning and abuse and in this case it seems more of a controloption for citiezens than something to protect. Also if "they" have allready been doing that they would not need to state it again. (so there must have been a change of that law)
**There have been Americans abducted/tortured/executed in Iraq, pre-Bush. Perhaps not in such quantity, but still
Yeah you are right, they where walking along the streets and then suddenly an evil saddam powered iraquey grabbed them brought them unnoticed to iraque then tourtured them.
if they kidnapped tourists from saudi or egypt they ONLY when for US citizens (not that there where any kidnappings) because they are the people wayving around the US flag.
May I remind you that your country after the first gulfwar until the the second one constantly bombarded that country killing over 500.000 civilians because they could not build up proper watersupply or anything basic that is needed to live. Nah I guess they must looooove you. Just like you think there are weapons hidden in that desert (wich your country claimed to know exactly where they are) they belive that all americans are evil. (hence their conclusion may seem more understandable even if not true)
*yawn* boring. this thread is shifting way off course as usual. we moved from poverty, to Bush, to OMG IT IS THE TERRORISTS!!!1
Anyone else sick of hearing that word? Does it still hold meaning? What is a terrorist? Obviously someone who commits an act of violence in order to intimidate a country to agree to there demands. It's not a physical trait or ethnicity, so you can't pick them out of a crowd as easily as blacks, whites, canadians, and southern baptists. It's one who causes intense fear and anxiety. And with the frequent use of buzzwords such as "terrorists", much like "communists" from back in the day, I'd say they were successful. So in the face of fear, we decided to suspect an entire ethnicity of being criminal masterminds, all the while flaunting our huge throbbing missiles in their homeland...like a true Texan would. I doubt poverty will be a concern for our nation's leaders until it escalates to the point where it directly affects those in power. Ask any corporate CEO how it feels to lose a second home, and he'll tell you it's not a 30 day vacation.
I'm not sure where I was going with this, and doubt I ever will. I will say that after 4 years of living in a small town located between a community airport, a nuclear power plant, and a large military base, I've never witnessed any acts of terror other than cockroaches. So all this discussion about homeland security and the patriot act of just for pussies. Even my local ferry system that transports a handful of cars to a local beach has a huge terror alert bulletin board. The current Bush administration cause more anxiety in me than any dark skinned individual I've met. It also makes the orders to bomb nations. So the term "terrorist" could easily be used to label both sides of this so-called "war". And so, we'll never see and end to it. Much like cockroaches, and celebrity gossip, and these fucking political discussions that pop up from out of nowhere like churches and minimalls then refuse to stay on topic. Yadda yadda, but Clinton got a blowjob, the end.
Happy 5th of July. Hope your your celebrations weren't ruined by any....OMG TERRORISTS!!!1one
[quote
-Racial profiling for darkies
I don't agree with this one. Unless they are suspect, they should be left alone entirely.
-The worst international rap in this nations history
Disputable. Many world nations disliked us when we broke away from the UK, and gained our independence as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Im not going to get into this deep, but just 2 quick comments.
Racial Profiling: If the perpetrators of certain crimes are overwhelmingly & statisticaly a certain race or any other obvious feature I say go for it. Concentrate your effort where its actually needed. Simple common sense. Anything else is just Politically Correct balogna.
Worst international rap in history: Oh, I dont know. I think we've got plenty of skeletons in this closet that the world can hate us for. (although I dont agree with them)
Nuclear Bombing 2 cities of a defeated, surrendering nation.
Vietnam War & the atrocities done there (although all sides are pretty guilty in any war of atrocities, as war itself is pretty much one bit atrocity)
Systematic slaughter of the native American population?
Replies
-R
Liberty and Justice are just the words that the middle class use to fool the working class into aiding them into usurping the present upper class before leaving the working class sitting in the same shit they always have!
r.
Looks like you had a great time for a great cause though, Rick. Too bad that poverty is impossible to eliminate. We can always hope though.
Gotta love the anti-bush sentiment at a 'End Poverty' march. Typical shit really. People should be holding pics of Kerry stabbing people in the back as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
In case you missed it Vassago, the election ended last November and Kerry lost. So Bush is the one still fucking the world over, not Kerry.
It's funny really. You neo-cons are so desperate to have a member of the democratic party to throw hate-filled rhetoric at that you will direct it at the last guy the dems put up to run for President. It's a shame for all of you that Kerry didn't win so at least spewing shit about him would kinda make sense.
Don't forget to mention that Clinton got a blow-job while you're at it.
[edit]
Maybe you should try taking some of your own advice:
[ QUOTE ]
I can spout all over here, about Kerry being a lier, and a rat, which he is. Or how Micheal Moore is a complete fabricator of shit, who LOVES putting words into other people's mouths. But have I ever done if before? No. It's pointless. It only ignites a political debate that can ever end, because each side thinks THEY are right.
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? No. It's pointless. It only ignites a political debate that can ever end, because each side thinks THEY are right.
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought most reasonable people believed in compromise?
I mark complaints about both sides, so I'm not trying to ignite a debate about anything. I said I agree with both pov's, end of story.
Oxynary - If you can show me one reasonable politician, I'll ask them
Oxynary - If you can show me one reasonable politician, I'll ask them
[/ QUOTE ]
Obama.
Watched him in several discussions, and he is a good person.
The most amusing thing about that post is how you took the opportunity to bash people in the political arena while claiming to have never bashed anyone. And now you are saying you bash everyone?
I'm not trying to spark a debate here as much as just call you on your BS. If you really are trying to figure out where your political affiliations lie maybe you should just take some of your own advice (once again) and not make political comments and stay out of political discussions all together
Peace.
Povert isn't impossible to eliminate, it'll just be VERY VERY VERY difficult. But what do you?
Ignore it?
So that in 50 years when my grandchildren ask me "Granda, what did you do when 50,000 people a day were dying of poverty?" I'll be able to say "Ach, I couldnt be arsed. I stayed in the house and played games"
"But a child like me was dying every 3 seconds because they couldn't eat or didn't have medicine!" I can reply - "Oh their governments were corrupt, not my fault".
Yes, there are corrupt governemnts out there who siphon off aid and use money to buy guns (who sells them the guns?) and let there citizens die.
But if a child came to your door and hadn't eaten in 3 weeks, you'd feed it. You wouldn't say "I gave your dad 20 quid to feed you, if he didn't, it's not my fault."
It's not just poverty in Africa, it's people dying in every country through malnourishment and disease, including the UK and the USA. It's probably more digusting in develoed countries, where poeple really have no excuse to allow that to happen.
It's the 21st Century. No-one should be dying because they are poor, yet 10s of thousands do. EVERY DAY.
Gotta love the anti-bush sentiment at a 'End Poverty' march. Typical shit really. People should be holding pics of Kerry stabbing people in the back as well.
Looks like you had a great time for a great cause though, Rick. Too bad that poverty is impossible to eliminate. We can always hope though.
[/ QUOTE ]
It is impossible to eliminate stupid comments like that.
I would like to quote JFK here "Our problems are manmade and can be man solved" (should be about right
around 200.000 people, that is a statement, either the "middleclass" is getting bigger or the people really wan't to say something.
Yeah the poor working class will be bashed by the police to do 12 hour shifts to do a job that they are forced to do to clear up mess "they" didn't make.
Get a grip, a society is not divided into black and white. (maybe in the US :P
I also don't understand this sentiment towards the "middleclass" beeing mindless and having nothing to say. What are you then ? rich, poor ? you go to the cinema, buy games, spend money on cars, computers, things you think are worth spending on, etc. etc. etc.
On what do you base your "knowlege" on anway.
It seems to me you just like to rant, take simple paroles that you can easyly identiefy yourselfs with and act like nothing that is happening around you has really anything to do with you. It is trendy to a political and socially ignorat ? it seems to me it is again
Well I guess until you have expierenced a situation of poverty, strong health issue, war or somehow start thinking past your own ignorance and predujice (spelling) you will never change.
Astro - You can call all you want, I know where I stand.
Rick - Ending poverty is as likely as attaining world peace. And I never said ignore it. I've given time to helping shelters, and I make yearly donations to several groups. I'd absolutely love it if it dissapeared, but it's just not likely.
Prs-Phil - I grew up extremely poor. My mother alone, was rasing 3 kids on $900 a month. We wore shit clothes that fell apart quickly, and ate mostly bread & spam, if we were lucky. I brought myself up from that, to where I am today. I'm the only person in my family, extended or not, who has really succeeded. So don't sit there and preach to me, or call me ignorant. I simply stated that ideal of eliminating poverty 100% is false. It's not possible. We can sure as hell try our best, but it won't eliminate it completely.
What I wonder about are those "poor" people begging in the streets here (though there are stories about them not really being as poor as they look but not all are begging, the guy who drinks from softdrinks someone threw into a garbage bin clearly isn't out for the money). We have a functioning social system that will pay even the greatest idiots and eats up half the wage of the working population, why don't these people use that? Or why don't they get money? Severe misconduct?
r.
There is something to be said about bad people who do bad things to others,but even more to be said about good people who watch it and do nothing. This is a big world full of many resources and i do think it is enough to provide for each other unfortunatly human greed and barriers stand in the way of this.
Ending poverty is in our self interest as well,because historiclly it has been a major cause of war,if the people of Germany in the 1930's wouldnt have been living in the harsh conditions imposed on them by the Versailles treaty would they have ever allowed such an extremist as Adolf Hitler to rise? In extreme times extreme leaders rise and the world pays for it.
As one person mentioned that disease should be ended first,well i disagree,when you raise people out of poverty many things change in society,for starters it creates more educated people who can avoid these diseases much better through education and when the standard of living raises for a society so does the clenliness and over time preventable diseases begin to decline.
I am an American and around the world some people may be under the mistaken impression that Americans dont care,well thats not true (unfortunatly i can speak for all americans on this), what affects the world affects this country,if we dont work to resolve these problems it will lead the the same destructive cycle as we have seen in history and as Albert Einstein said " i dont know what world war 3 will be fought with but world war four will be fought with sticks and stones"
My conscience does not afford me the type of callousness i see too much, when i go pay gas or get angry because the girl at starbucks screwed up my drink it doesnt last long because it is nothing compared to problems of other people around the world.
both get an A+ for ambition!
I read a great article on Africa from Ralph Nader's website just before last year's elections.
http://www.votenader.org/issues/index.php?cid=97
War is inevitable, there's nothing you can do to ensure war will never occur. The country that refuses to fight or defend themselves will soon be obliterated if they are holding onto anything valuable at all. Of course we can end poverty, I don't see how it's 'human nature' like war and aggression is. And of course ending poverty isn't about erasing debts and throwing money at the poverty-stricken countries. The whole 'teach a man to fish' saying applies here. That's why Bill Gates' plan to supply such countries with computers isn't ridiculous at all. Enable them to support and sustain their own economies and they'll eventually be able to look after themselves. Poverty-stricken countries need a helping hand to get them out of the slump. Just because it's been going on for decades now doesn't mean it's fruitless to try and help - it just means it doesn't happen overnight.
There is a shitload of money out there but it matters how it's divided up. Everyone's heard the argument about a minute percentage of military budgets going to better causes, because it's very true. It won't make a difference to the security of the countries we all live in, but it'd make a huge difference to those living in poverty. At the moment, though, I'm living in poverty and barely living paycheck to paycheck, so the damn hippies better not be holding up the public transport tomorrow morning.
... and no "Pak", not by giving cops guns. (that is another ignorat post)
[/ QUOTE ]
I apologize. Sorry Phil/Rick I was being silly, I was tryna take a stab Rick just for fun to tease him :P So I guess I should write a serious post now.
In all seriousness, I don't really think this planet can support 6 billion people. this is the real issue in regrads to starvation and poverty.
The definition of poverty is often misconstrued. It is less the decadece of western society and moreso the overpopulation and poor education of 3rd world countries.
I think my parents left India and Pakistan for a good reason, because they knew they'd have a difficult time carving out an existence in a place that was colapsing under it's own weight. My Mom was displaced by the war and separation of India into Pakistan and India. My mom grew up in the most disgusting environmnet, is aw it on a trip when i was toung, it scared the crap out of me. They had a cloth roof.
I don't see it as the greedy wasteful westerners who so much as a number of nations and cultures who have grown beyond their ability to sustain themselves. To say that the west is 'completely' to blame is a little too convieninet once you read history and find out why places like India have starving people. They have starvation because they have waaaaay to many people.
The reasons are complicated, and there are many. Most of it comes down to having die-hard and outdated cultural beliefs.
-The idea that sons are ore precious then daughters is one.
-Western traders bringing medicines and not teaching contraception during colonial times.
-The more children you have, the greater the chance that one of them will take care of you (My Dad was the only kid on his block without sisters)
War and economics play a huge part in poverty, and to say that all poverty is caused by over-population would be wrong aswell. The fact remains that the majority of the starving poor are not located in wartorn nations.
The wheels of change are in motion and almost nothing will stop asia from becoming the economic power of this milenium. As these countries develop at this incredible rate 2 things will happen that will diminish poverty:
-They will have the money, power and influence to leverage the work of existing developed nations.
-They will educate their young who will have less children and the newer generations won't be unsustainable.
I'm sure there are tons of factors I'm not aware of...let the hole-poking begin!
-R
Nice pic, pog
Astro - You can call all you want, I know where I stand.
Rick - Ending poverty is as likely as attaining world peace. And I never said ignore it. I've given time to helping shelters, and I make yearly donations to several groups. I'd absolutely love it if it dissapeared, but it's just not likely.
Prs-Phil - I grew up extremely poor. My mother alone, was rasing 3 kids on $900 a month. We wore shit clothes that fell apart quickly, and ate mostly bread & spam, if we were lucky. I brought myself up from that, to where I am today. I'm the only person in my family, extended or not, who has really succeeded. So don't sit there and preach to me, or call me ignorant. I simply stated that ideal of eliminating poverty 100% is false. It's not possible. We can sure as hell try our best, but it won't eliminate it completely.
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Oh, ok sorry about that and good that you made it. Respect to your mother for bringing up the engery and dedication to bring you through.
I am NOT preaching around because I feel like it, and now knowing your history I understand even less how you can support a goverment that is doing even more to make the live of people (like your mum) even harder.
It's just like my grandparents that where driven out of Austria during WWII because they where jewish and my grandma today is still throwing hateparoles towards the arabs and muslims. That is something I can't understand just as much as I don't understand that someone that has been through hard times like you makes political statements like that.
Considering the amount of cash flying around in just your country it is very easy to do the math that a stable social system and care for poor people incl. programs to "resocialize"(giving them a good foundation to live on) them is easyly possible.
Considering the amount of cash flying around in just your country it is very easy to do the math that a stable social system and care for poor people incl. programs to "resocialize"(giving them a good foundation to live on) them is easyly possible.
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Someties at the end of the month I feel hard done by that I don't have enough money to buy a game. But that's because I already bought one earlier int he onth, and went out for dinner 3 times, and went to the cinema and ent to the pub 10 times. I'm not rich. But look what I do with my money AFTER I've paid for my house, food and energy bills.
So sometimes I feel that it's unfair that I don't get paid enough to buy ANOTHER game.
[ QUOTE ]
Considering the amount of cash flying around in just your country it is very easy to do the math that a stable social system and care for poor people incl. programs to "resocialize"(giving them a good foundation to live on) them is easyly possible.
[/ QUOTE ]
Can anyone disagree with that statement?
I spent £180 on a meal for myself and Aileen a few weeks ago.
There's a difference between defense and attack, Iraq, for example, was clearly a war of aggression.Sure, Bush says it was just defense but Hitler also said "jetzt wird zurückgeschossen!" (now we return fire). Hitler was clearly not defending when he took Poland. What were the US defending themselves against in Vietnam or Iraq? Neither countery was a threat to the US or even the NATO.
Also, there's the difference of how much you're willing to do to avoid war. The EU and the UN attempt diplomacy first, Bush made it very clear he'll attack without attempting to find a peaceful solution (and slagged the UN for not adopting the same policy).
I wouldn't expect a failed business owner who was saved by his oil tycoon family and one day decided to fake a texas accent and lifestyle to bribe his way to political office etc etc... to ever give a damn about the poor no matter what country they're found. The rich only care about their own, that's why they're rich. Sometimes they will forgive the debt of a starving nation. That's the least the could do for humanity.
I doubt the spoiled Mtv generation will do much to help either.
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=trippin
I can't imagine dying of starvation and poverty, and having someone with loads of money walking up to me and saying "Oh this is so terrible, I wish there was something we could do. But guess what, I'm a movie star in another country, and you're on TV. Isn't that great?"
Yes, Bush is a genius.
[/ QUOTE ]
[more sarcasm] Yes, who else would be able to come up with the brilliant plan of passing more than $500 billion in tax cuts for the rich in order to supposedly create 1 million new jobs (that's a cost of more than $500,000 per job, for those of us who are capable of simple arithmetic), and then end up with a net loss of jobs while continuing tax cuts into the trillions. Wow, what a great job of stimulating new jobs with tax cuts for the rich. [/more sarcasm]
I'm actually a moderate conservative myself, but I in no way identify with Bush; in my mind, he is not a conservative... he is a big government, federalist, spend spend spend right wing extremist.
BTW, where does the term "conservative" come from, anyway? Not conserving worker rights? I know the CDU evolved from CENTRUM, which was a christian fundamentalist party but they don't seem to have kept anything from that time.
doesn't seem to fit well.
doesn't seem to fit well.
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Don't see how it doesn't. Like any politician, Bush has made some pretty idiotic decisions, but he hasn't changed anything drastically.
As far as jobs go, I only know of people who have gained jobs, not lost them. At the end of Clinton's administration, the unemployment rate was 3.9% (Dec 2000). When Bush was sworn into office in January, the UER was 4.2%. Problems at the end of Clinton's administration was to blame that that. Through ass-headed management, Bush got that up to 6.3% in his first term. However, as of May this year, he's gotten it down to 5.1%. IMO, any president would've had a hard time after 9/11. It caused a LOT of issues with our economy. Bush could certainly do MUCH better, but things aren't as bad as they were in the Carter/Reagan era (10%+ unemployment). I'm sure things will improve with time (or when the next pres comes into power).
Gotta give credit where it's due:
-Loads of aid to Africa.
-The avg american is more aware of the international community due to the actions of this administration (awareness is a good thing)
-Amercian petrol prices haven't spiked as high as other western nations.
But there is always a flip side I guess:
-The Patriot Act
-Homeland Security
-Gobs of new national debt
-Aggresive INS policies
-Racial profiling for darkies
-The worst international rap in this nations history
-The blood of tons of brown people in the middle east
-1700+ dead american soldiers who basically are a magnet for terroist activities. I guess the Admin's philosophy is "at least it's not in our backyard"
All in all it balances out i guess, but the truth is Vassago there have been more radical changes in the last 5 years than my entire life in regards to American foriegn and domestic policy.
-R
but that your petrol prices haven't gone up was only possible due to the hard work wich byproduct the last to points of your list are. (missed out starting to drill for oil in alaskan nature parks)
I also wouldn't count your publics awareness as a good thing. From the small amount of people that actually voted (around 60% if I remember) Bush won anyway so they approve of an agressive, militant and selveish foreign policy (if they know what that is or if they even voted because of that) and the rest (the part that didn't) vote doesn't care less, so I personally don't think that the US public has become more aware of real international issues (I´m not saying that they don't care but how free this awareness is another question)
but that your petrol prices haven't gone up was only possible due to the hard work wich byproduct the last to points of your list are. (missed out starting to drill for oil in alaskan nature parks)
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Actually, I've heard that we actually pay slightly more than most European countries, we just don't tax it nearly as much. If you subtract the taxes from each of our gas prices, there isn't much of a difference in price.
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(if they know what that is or if they even voted because of that)
[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, most don't and most didn't. Most of Bush's votes were cast because of fags and jesus
The avg american is more aware of the international community due to the actions of this administration (awareness is a good thing)
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Awareness is nothing. 'Awareness' is a way for suburbanites to feel like they're contributing to a solution without actually doing anything. Kind of like protest marches. People fool themselves into thinking they're helping to show everyone that they're better people.
Frank the Avenger
I just read it. Doesn't seem all that bad to me.
-Homeland Security
Would it be better to leave ourselves wide open?
-Gobs of new national debt
We went to war, so this is expected. The economy is mostly recovered from post 9/11 slumps now as well. But yes, it's a lot of debt.
-Aggresive INS policies
Why not? Better than allowing terrorists to slip in unoticed, isn't it?
-Racial profiling for darkies
I don't agree with this one. Unless they are suspect, they should be left alone entirely.
-The worst international rap in this nations history
Disputable. Many world nations disliked us when we broke away from the UK, and gained our independence as well.
-The blood of tons of brown people in the middle east
For civilian casualties, I'm extremely smpythetic. It's a damn shame that innocents have died.
-1700+ dead american
Absolutely a damn shame. We should have gotten Bin Laden and stopped there. I'm glad we took Sadam out though, but we've been there WAY too long. Unfortuneatly, our soldiers are paying for that.
-Aggresive INS policies
Why not? Better than allowing terrorists to slip in unoticed, isn't it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Do terrorists regularly apply for green cards? And if so, I doubt they'd list "terrorist" as an occupation.
[ QUOTE ]
-The worst international rap in this nations history
Disputable. Many world nations disliked us when we broke away from the UK, and gained our independence as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which nations (other than the UK, of course)?
Gives authorities the right to search home without your prior knowledge,makes librarians report on the reading habits of americans
-Homeland Security
There been much misappropriations on homeland security,cities like New York are receiving less money per person for homeland security than the people of Kansas Topeka,latest misappropriation was in texas where local goverment officials used homeland security money to buy lawn mowers for lawn mower races.
-Gobs of new national debt
We are in war yes,but never in our history during a time of war has a president given tax cuts,especially tax cuts which benefit the very wealthy
-Aggresive INS policies
most if not all the 9/11 hijackers made it into this country legally
-Racial profiling for darkies
illegal detention, detained but not charged with crimes,add to the the act of extraordinary rendition which US authorities take a person and bring them to a country which has no torture laws for interogation,right now there are 13 arrest warrents in Italy for 13 CIA agents who illegally kidnapped a muslim cleric, he was extradited to egypt where he was tortured,he was released and formal charges were never made.
-The worst international rap in this nations history
pre 911 the people of the world didnt see our president as a great threat to world security and pre 911 world wide polls didnt indicate people are less afraid of China then we United states
-The blood of tons of brown people in the middle east
the people of Iraq have never done harm to any of the people in this country,and i dont mean the people who shot at our soldiers after we invaded nor the first gulf war,there hasnt been any terrorist acts committed by Iraqis,but on the other hand Saudis sure have contributed to many american citizens dieing,why arent we in saudi arabia?
-1700+ dead american
Based on information which said Saddam Hussein was an imminent threat, based on the administration continously telling us Iraq was linked to 9/11 which they werent,or stockpiles of Wmd which were never there, or the fact that no matter what happened in the UN our president was hell bent on attacking. Or a secretary of defense who despite many many miscalculations was not fired,he was given a medal. Now our troops are overcommitted in a country dieing daily,which was never an imminant threat, now Iran has voted an extreme hard liner,has pledged to continue on their nuclear program and is a country which indeed had supported terrorist or north korea which claims to own nuclear weaponry, in terms of imminant threats id have to place North Korea and Iran over that list.
-The Patriot Act
Gives authorities the right to search home without your prior knowledge,makes librarians report on the reading habits of americans
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**If you're a suspected terrorist or criminal, you should damn well have your house searched/siezed without prior knowledge. If you are either, you don't deserve anything.
As far as reading goes, they have tags on a lot of books, yes. But they've had that for DECADES. If you check out books on nuclear weapons, explosives, anti-terror tactics, etc - you get cataloged. This is nothing new. What they DON'T do, is what most people assume - that they check everyone reading 'home digest' or 'fish and stream'. It's a limited amount of reading material, which is monitored.
[ QUOTE ]
the people of Iraq have never done harm to any of the people in this country...
but on the other hand Saudis sure have contributed to many american citizens dieing,why arent we in saudi arabia?
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**There have been Americans abducted/tortured/executed in Iraq, pre-Bush. Perhaps not in such quantity, but still. You already know the answer to your second question. Oil. You can say it's bullshit all ya like, but this country needs it, so we will never go to war with Saudi Arabia. The entire economy depends on it, so keep that in mind.
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based on the administration continously telling us Iraq was linked to 9/11 which they werent,or stockpiles of Wmd which were never there....or north korea which claims to own nuclear weaponry, in terms of imminant threats id have to place North Korea and Iran over that list.
[/ QUOTE ]
**Iraq might not have been directly involved with 9/11, but I still believe they have chemical/bio weapons somewhere in that desert. Does it justify going to Iraq? I don't think so. I agree that they weren't a threat 'currently', but I'm glad Saddam is out. As far as North Korea goes, that's the one thing that REALLY pisses me off about Bush. Clinton got very close to signing agreements with them, and Bush ruined that by calling them an 'axis of evil'. Kim Jong only wants to be recognized as a sovern nation. They might be communist, but given their determination, I'd give them their recognition.
2. what specific instances do you know of americans being abducted,tortured or executed in iraq prior to bush 1 or 2 or in the clinton era before any wars ever occurred? and if there were why werent these given as reasons for war? and we know Saudi Arabia is bad but does that mean we can excuse their support of terror which kills our people because its fuels our economy?
3. You may believe this to be so but none have been found? unlike nuclear you need massive amounts of these weapons to be a real threat 2 or 3 shells of these weapons does not compare to a nuclear warhead,you need tons of it,to produce tons of these weapons you need massive production facilities,you also need massive amount of parts for general maitnence,then you need massive places to store these weapons,warehouses and finally all chemical and bio weapons have short shelf lives(2 years typically) so with US run sanctions which would prohibit anything which could potentially be used to make these weapons, no fly zones,satellite surveillence how was saddam hussein ever supposed to get the river of materials you need to operate and maintain these facilities without ever being bombed by the US or without any solid evidence what so ever? and to add to those already major problems you need a reliable delivery system.
i think Mark Twain nailed it when he said
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it."
Depends what the classification of a terrorist is. From what I understood you fall under this category when you start talking against an administration. To cut burocracy when really needed is not a bad thing but there is a thin line between true meaning and abuse and in this case it seems more of a controloption for citiezens than something to protect. Also if "they" have allready been doing that they would not need to state it again. (so there must have been a change of that law)
**There have been Americans abducted/tortured/executed in Iraq, pre-Bush. Perhaps not in such quantity, but still
Yeah you are right, they where walking along the streets and then suddenly an evil saddam powered iraquey grabbed them brought them unnoticed to iraque then tourtured them.
if they kidnapped tourists from saudi or egypt they ONLY when for US citizens (not that there where any kidnappings) because they are the people wayving around the US flag.
May I remind you that your country after the first gulfwar until the the second one constantly bombarded that country killing over 500.000 civilians because they could not build up proper watersupply or anything basic that is needed to live. Nah I guess they must looooove you. Just like you think there are weapons hidden in that desert (wich your country claimed to know exactly where they are) they belive that all americans are evil. (hence their conclusion may seem more understandable even if not true)
Anyone else sick of hearing that word? Does it still hold meaning? What is a terrorist? Obviously someone who commits an act of violence in order to intimidate a country to agree to there demands. It's not a physical trait or ethnicity, so you can't pick them out of a crowd as easily as blacks, whites, canadians, and southern baptists. It's one who causes intense fear and anxiety. And with the frequent use of buzzwords such as "terrorists", much like "communists" from back in the day, I'd say they were successful. So in the face of fear, we decided to suspect an entire ethnicity of being criminal masterminds, all the while flaunting our huge throbbing missiles in their homeland...like a true Texan would. I doubt poverty will be a concern for our nation's leaders until it escalates to the point where it directly affects those in power. Ask any corporate CEO how it feels to lose a second home, and he'll tell you it's not a 30 day vacation.
I'm not sure where I was going with this, and doubt I ever will. I will say that after 4 years of living in a small town located between a community airport, a nuclear power plant, and a large military base, I've never witnessed any acts of terror other than cockroaches. So all this discussion about homeland security and the patriot act of just for pussies. Even my local ferry system that transports a handful of cars to a local beach has a huge terror alert bulletin board. The current Bush administration cause more anxiety in me than any dark skinned individual I've met. It also makes the orders to bomb nations. So the term "terrorist" could easily be used to label both sides of this so-called "war". And so, we'll never see and end to it. Much like cockroaches, and celebrity gossip, and these fucking political discussions that pop up from out of nowhere like churches and minimalls then refuse to stay on topic. Yadda yadda, but Clinton got a blowjob, the end.
Happy 5th of July. Hope your your celebrations weren't ruined by any....OMG TERRORISTS!!!1one
-Racial profiling for darkies
I don't agree with this one. Unless they are suspect, they should be left alone entirely.
-The worst international rap in this nations history
Disputable. Many world nations disliked us when we broke away from the UK, and gained our independence as well.
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Im not going to get into this deep, but just 2 quick comments.
Racial Profiling: If the perpetrators of certain crimes are overwhelmingly & statisticaly a certain race or any other obvious feature I say go for it. Concentrate your effort where its actually needed. Simple common sense. Anything else is just Politically Correct balogna.
Worst international rap in history: Oh, I dont know. I think we've got plenty of skeletons in this closet that the world can hate us for. (although I dont agree with them)
Nuclear Bombing 2 cities of a defeated, surrendering nation.
Vietnam War & the atrocities done there (although all sides are pretty guilty in any war of atrocities, as war itself is pretty much one bit atrocity)
Systematic slaughter of the native American population?
Simply being the "haves" vs the "have-nots".