I don't see the racist side to it to be honest. It's just like having an advert with Fat Americans in it. It's a stereotype to the next level which could be construde as racist IMO. Hell of an ad. Palm..? You'd HOPE it was fake and a person didn't die for an ad and all... ¬_¬
It's both to an extent. The 2 people who made it were getting sued by Volkswagan (it's not offical, who would have thought, eh?) but I don't know if the case was dropped. They were hired by Channel 4 to make a bunch of spoof adverts for the recent election.
heh. funny. calling it racist would be claiming that it's racist against.. who? middle eastern people?
so what would that person be trying to say? that all middle eastern people are terrorists? this is only racist against terrorists. the people who would claim this to be racist are in fact more racist then the advertising..
It's both, but I don't like arabs and yet I like racism even less and you shouldn't have to like a people to want them to have their rights and yet I don't trust them and what right are infringed upon by me laughing at the general stupidity of the middle east and my angry stares and ducking behind bunkers whenever a taxi approaches but then doesn't that make me guilty of the same thing I condem...
hahahaha KDR thx for taking the step, I was going to post something in that direction but I pulled back.
But I was creeping around mightyrighty.com ... yeah I love that site. Hard facts, hard people, empty heads ...
"Because liberals are damn wrong" ... I love that one.
[ QUOTE ]
It's both, but I don't like arabs and yet I like racism even less and you shouldn't have to like a people to want them to have their rights and yet I don't trust them and what right are infringed upon by me laughing at the general stupidity of the middle east and my angry stares and ducking behind bunkers whenever a taxi approaches but then doesn't that make me guilty of the same thing I condem...
Its racist because it plays on the white mans prejudice against Middle Eastern people. Or the Arabs as we like to call them.;)
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Why not make a little comercial (with a fun twist) for guns, using the Columbine school shootings? Its just as tasteless. No difference. At least if its only air it in Europe.
[ QUOTE ]
Its racist because it plays on the white mans prejudice against Middle Eastern people. Or the Arabs as we like to call them.;)
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Why not make a little comercial (with a fun twist) for guns, using the Columbine school shootings? Its just as tasteless. No difference. At least if its only air it in Europe.
[/ QUOTE ]
that raises a very valid point. Whats the difference?
Volkswagon Tough vs. Glock19 Durability + controversial issues in the world = funny stuff, but can hurt someone out there.
[ QUOTE ] I don't like arabs and yet I like racism even less
I can't determine whether that is a high form of humour/social criticism or just a sad testament to the logic of today.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a problem I have. I hate them for what's happened but I'm uncomfortable with the idea of hating a whole people for the actions of a few (or even the majority) but I also don't trust them. So I'm stuck in a limbo of a sorts. It's all very muddy. I miss the cold war where we had clear cut properly demonized enemies.
[ QUOTE ] I don't like arabs and yet I like racism even less
I can't determine whether that is a high form of humour/social criticism or just a sad testament to the logic of today.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's just Cain KDR. He's just not a very good human being I'm afraid.
Cain, I'd be *very* careful with that kind of stuff on these messageboards If I were you. Save it for whitepower.com ( I just made that up, but I'm sure it exists )
I miss the cold war where we had clear cut properly demonized enemies.
My history teacher once said "The americans always need enemies they can antagonize. Russians, Nazis, Arabs, whathaveyou. It's fascinating, the worse the economy the more wars America fights".
We stumbled across the StormFront messageboards one day while searching for some GTA stuff. Now that *IS* scary. And it's like a car crash, you can't stop reading.
I don't think I'd be too welcome at whitepower.com...
I have noticed that we tend to turn in on ourselves when there's no enemy to fight, good thing there will always be someone new and or improved enemy to fight, insuring national unity in the face of true evil.
Not sure I follow you Weiser. Turn in on yourselves? Who are yourselves exactly? America is a racial melting pot. Many Arabs are 'American'. So you declaring your hatred for them get's a bit tricky dont you see?
Personally I try to keep as neutral as possible when it comes to anything racial. If I stand back and observe, every race is as bad as eachother and I do somewhat find it disappointing the media tend to put some kind of point across that white people are evil and ignorant when it comes to people of other races and other races are almost seen as incapable of this. Yet all my life experiences so far has told me they're all equally racist, in skools constantly blacks/asians/whites at eachothers throats, it just seems like unsophisticated base human behaviour, scum isn't racially related.
There's a large amount of people of most races that are perfectly open-minded and racism isn't a motivation for them.
I certainly find pride a great thing to have so long as it doesn't interfere with your interaction with others, I certainly find places like stormfront rediculous. Sounds like a place my father would quickly become a moderator of.. if he isn't already.
I hate these conversations I end up losing my direction, I think I have.
Basically there's scum and quality peeps in every race and all are capable of the same atrocities.
Daz: Is everything race with you? There are more ways to divive and categorize a people than race. Even now you can live in a red or blue state, conservatives use 'liberal' like some people use 'nazi' and the religious continualy push their views on the rest of us as if their way is the only moral way of looking at life.
If you'll go back and reread my post all it is talking about is the tricky situation I'm in. I can't forgive them and I can't write them all off.
Well that's pretty bizzare. Nope, apparently race is your issue, not mine. I grew up in south London in a very mixed race area. My Dad remarried an Indian woman, so my two half sisters are of mixed race. They've experienced some things in life that I'd rather they hadn't, but we have an interesting family and I wouldn't have it any other way. Peoples ethnic origin isn't something I think about when I meet them. Racism bothers me though yeah. I don't think I'd have brought it up unless I'd seen you write the below now would I?
"I don't like arabs".
You've clearly led a sheltered existence. I bet you've never left America, and never had any friends beyond the people that are very similiar to yourself. We'll never see eye to eye you and me, and that's totally cool with me.
I've been to canada but that doesn't count, eh. I grew up in chicago, humbolt park, right down the street from the projects, hardly a sheltered city or life. I'd bet my soul, if I weren't an atheist, that I've experienced more racisim firsthand that you ever will, and I'm talking about the real thing.
The arabs are the ones that group themselves that way. I don't pretend to be superior to them. I don't like their ways and I don't trust them. The feeling is mutual, and I've heard a hell of a lot worse from them anyway, yet I don't hear anything from you about any of that. And I hear no doubt in their position in the thing they say. Drop you or me in a middle eastern country and I bet you we'll both get our heads chopped off no matter how understanding we try to be.
WOW how humor has changed. I remember the days (not that long ago) when this would have gotten a chuckle and not sparked such a "hot debate". I remeber movies making fun of "terrorists" and "funny generalizations" and no one thought twice about it. Movies like Airplane, even Back to the Future used terrorists in a semi-funny highly steriotypical way.
[ QUOTE ]
Its racist because it plays on the white mans prejudice against Middle Eastern people. Or the Arabs as we like to call them.;)
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this was ment to be funny? [troll]
But...
Its not just "white people" that are scared/prejudice agaist Middle Eastrern ppl. It is there to some degree in all western culture countries and Nationalities. Like it was said before America is not really "all white rich folks from the south" its a big melting pot and most of us, are dirt poor and a mix of backgrounds. Also that is a prety broad generlization to say all white people are prejudice. [/troll]
I would lump Cain in with the paranoid crowd rather than the racist crowd. I would consider what he says to be racist, but it sounds like it is coming from fear of the unknown instead of typical racist hate speach which claims to be supriour. I think Daz hit the nail on the head when he made mention he hasn't socialized with too many people that are not like him. Until I was 11 I grew up in Bothell washington back then it wasn't really anyone around much less anyone that didn't have light skin. But then we started moving around, Aust, New Zealand, minesota, Georgia, Florida, California and back to washington state. Not like those are cultrual melting pots but I did get a chance to met a bunch of different kids that where not like me. When I met up with my old childhood friends I found them to be much like cain.
Cain, living close to some place is not the same as living there or even being friends with people that live "over there". I'm not saying you need start taking applications to ballance out your "arab" friend quota. But next time instead of hiding behind a bunker wall when a "taxi" drives by flsh them a smile and a head nod. Don't let your fear keep you from being friendly. [humor]Who knows maybe if they are "one of the crazies" and you happen to be one of the nice guys they see every day they might wait till you are not around to blow up a volkswagon. if not well atleast you go down smiling [/humor]
He also comes across as the type to talk tough on a message board (which we are all guilty of) and not really say that stuff on the street. Ahh the mircle of the internet, every female becomes hot, and every male becomes 1337. Everyone learns to even out thier "interweb persona" and post with a level head after a few smacks. Some people take longer to figure it out. I think that was the the point daz was making, and was missed by some?
[ QUOTE ]
I grew up in chicago, humbolt park, right down the street from the projects, hardly a sheltered city or life. I'd bet my soul, if I weren't an atheist, that I've experienced more racisim firsthand that you ever will, and I'm talking about the real thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Haha awesome. It's turned into a 'my town/upbringing was tougher than yours!' debate!
Lets dicuss mr. Cain as If he's not here haha! Vig, this as you know isn't the first time he's expressed hatred or resentment for entire nations or races of people on this board. He's entitled to his opinions of course, I just don't like seeing that stuff on pc. I really don't. It just ticks me off and makes me not want to come back. But I'm the idiot for letting it get to me. Right, must get back to some work.
No I didn't live in the projects(glad I didn't), that's not what I meant. When you live on division street you're in the middle of it. You see it all. That's what I meant. Chicago was and is(?)the most racially divided city in america and from my perspective division st. was at the heart of it all. Not as bad as the south mind you but still bad.
The only reason I brought this up is that Daz presumes too much. I've experienced racisim first hand and I guess that why I resist the almost visceral reaction to the people that dropped a plane or two on new york, etc.
Yeah, maybe it's a little paranoid but I'll error on cautions side untill I see enough proof otherwise.
As it is I'd feel like a jerk, and a lier if I went out and made one arab friend just to say I have one. I already have and had arab friends, though I didn't think about that sort of thing at the time.
To be fair I'm not very friendly to anyone anyway on the street.
[cain no read]
Daz I hear ya I'm just trying to be kind and help bring him around to a level head (by punching him in the nuts). I figured if he isn't going to move on after all the counter posts in all the threads, blasting him. Then we might as well try to find something redeming and exploit it?
This was however a little more turned down than his prior hate speach... which... might be a postive step in some direction that might be toward the path, that leads to that area, next to thing, by the other stuff that is postive and not full of hate speach?
[/cain no read]
Not friendly to anyone on the street... I am sure that makes you a peach to work with. This might be closer to the heart of the issue and why you don't trust "strangers". Do you not smile because you are afraid they might not "smile back" or because you think anger is cool and you have to tromp around and be angry to be cool?
The sad part in all of this is: "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter!"
Just depends where and why you are - screw how YOU think of yourself, it's how others see You.
And people generally don't think highly of those who are different from themselves.. (here again an unfounded generalization, but sadly one of the Real ones)
I find the idea of a suicide bomber to be completely retarded. That's why God invented grenades.
You shouldn't judge an entire culture because of a small group of self-detonating idiots. It's not like any other part of the world is immune from being brainwashed by a religious fruitcake with power to act without questioning.
I think the terrirists of today are just as much of a tool as Cain here. Their hopes and fears are nurtured by their masters who direct them in ways that benefit their own agenda. Bin Laden wasn't acting out of altruism, he was using those people to further his own goals, to gain power over the world. When terrorism started out that was already the case, the assassins were just tools of their master to make money and gain power. Some terrorists didn't act just for power, take Castro and Guevara, for example, they freed their country (of course violent revolutions always end in despotism). Or the french resistance, they weren't doing it to extort money from Hitler, they did it to help the allies drive back the Nazis. I don't believe Bin Laden has the same noble goals. His men, maybe but he himself? No.
I change sides when I see a group of youths/early twenties guys approaching. At least the kind that looks like they'd harass random people to look cool.
Weiser makes him self an easy target sometimes, but the truth is, he's saying in this thread things that alot of you won't admit to actually feeling yourselves. He just expresses it in a raw, less than PC manner.
How many of you would feel comfortable walking alone at night in the city, and be approached by a group of young black men?
How many of you would feel totally comfortable in an airplane and have a group of middle eastern men sitting in together in the next isle? You can't tell me that you wouldn't sneak a glance or two over to see if they were up to anything.
These things do not make a person racist. They don't even make him prejudiced, at least not in the way of a bigot.
Stereotypes exist for a reason. There is always some degree of truth to them, and yet in our neutured, overly PC society, it is taboo to talk about them.
People fear Arabs, well, because a few of them have decided to be cowardly losers and blow up some innocent people. It hasn't helped that there hasn't been as overwhelming a condemnation on the few by the collective majority of Arabs as many would like to have seen. There are a number of sympathizers, even in Western countries. It's only natural for people to be a little suspicious of their intentions in these days and times. If one bee happens to sting you, you tend to be a little leary of all bees, even if they are just going about their business.
So was it racist to put an Arab in the VW? No. That's who's blowing themselves up in public areas. Should they have put a black man, or a Latino woman in the car instead?
The hatred towards Arabs that has reared it's head in this world can be directly atributed to the actions of a few Arabs. It sucks for those the majority, who have no ill will towards anyone, but if they want it to end, they need to clean up their house.
[ QUOTE ]
WOW how humor has changed. I remember the days (not that long ago) when this would have gotten a chuckle and not sparked such a "hot debate". I remeber movies making fun of "terrorists" and "funny generalizations" and no one thought twice about it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought it was funny, but then, I didn't see it as prejudiced towards Arabs, but prejudiced towards people that BLOW THEMSELVES UP TO MAKE A POINT. And to be honest, it's not even 'prejudiced' against them, it's just a joke at their expense. Poor dead people, they must be so hurt by this little film.
I don't care where you come from, if you're going to blow yourself up and try to take innocents with you, you're an asshole.
And Cain, not all Arabs are suicide bombers. Not all suicide bombers are Arabs. If you can get that through your head, maybe you won't be so quick to judge people by ethnicity.
From Irritant:
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How many of you would feel comfortable walking alone at night in the city, and be approached by a group of young black men?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd react the same if I was approached by a gang of aggressive-looking white guys, Indian guys, Africans, Australian Aboriginals, Martians... it's nothing to do with race, it's to do with personality and demeanour.
I wouldn't feel any safer if there were a bunch of angry white guys wandering around late at night.
Ditto. Groups of "cool" young men scare me, I don't take the time to check their ethnicity.
But what makes you think black guy == criminal? That doesn't come from personal experience because I'm pretty sure you weren't victim of many violent crimes. Isn't it more like one of those "liberal" movies (I think it was Bowling) claim, that the media emphasize crimes commited by black people to make everyone think there are more criminal blacks than whites? I know BfC claims that the US is much more fear-driven than the rest of the world. That's probably the reason you think of Arabs as terrorists so easily just because a few have blown themselves up in your country.
BTW, here the "groups of young black men" are arabs. Turks, to be precise. I don't think anyone is afraid of them exploding at any given moment. Back when Germany had terrorists and introduced all those "security measures" the terrorists were whites, mostly from the upper social classes. Does that mean I think every businessman is a terrorist?
I'm pretty sure we even have mafia activity but apparently the maf only deals with those from its own country.
[ QUOTE ]
I'd react the same if I was approached by a gang of aggressive-looking white guys, Indian guys, Africans, Australian Aboriginals, Martians... it's nothing to do with race, it's to do with personality and demeanour.
I wouldn't feel any safer if there were a bunch of angry white guys wandering around late at night.
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL, right, that was kind of what I was getting at. To alot of people, just being young and black, makes them appear thuggy and aggressive. It's not really their fault that they feel that way, because at least where I was from, Baltimore, something like 60% of black men were either in or had been in the prison system. Now "why" this number is so high, that is irrelevant, and another argument altogether. The fact remains that it is, and it lends to the prejudice that when you see a young black man, he's automatically a threat, because the odds say it's likely he is.
This really isn't the same thing as saying "all black men are criminals, or all Arabs are terrorists", it's more of a natural self-preservation mode.
Some people, I suspect such as Weiser, have a difficult time sorting their feelings out when it comes to things like this. Perhaps some people are less trusting than others. Might not have as much to do with racial issues than as something a little more deeply rooted.
[ QUOTE ]
But what makes you think black guy == criminal? That doesn't come from personal experience because I'm pretty sure you weren't victim of many violent crimes. Isn't it more like one of those "liberal" movies (I think it was Bowling) claim, that the media emphasize crimes commited by black people to make everyone think there are more criminal blacks than whites?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually KDR, you can look up crime statistics that pretty much blow Moore's "media conspiracy theories" right out of the water.
Let me say, I am not generally afraid of walking down the street and running into a few black guys. Trust me. Maybe I should be when in certain places, but I am not. I don't look at a black guy, or an arab, and automatically think, oh, he's a criminal or terrorist. Sure, there are certain demeanors or activities that might make me think that, but it takes more than the color of one's skin.
My main point is, alot of people don't think that way, they see the skin, and the thoughts creep into their heads, and I guess what I'm saying is, you cannot automatically condemn them as racists.
As far as being a victim of violent crime...well...I did live in Baltimore for 7 years. I've been jumped by people, robbed by people, and had a bullet go through my windshield while at a traffic light, narrowly missing my head, which the perp was aiming for, presumably to steal my car. They were all black, and I lived in a mostly white neighborhood.
They look threatening when they look "cool". A bunch of nerds or older people doen't look threatening, a bunch of MTV Gen guys does. Though I don't think I've ever seen a turkish nerd. There are surprisingly few turks studying CS here but then again there seem to be less turks round here anyway (which would explain the turkey döner). Maybe I should look at an university in NRW or something.
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It's the end of your frustrations. You'll no longer be annoyed at reading flagrant stupidity, and misinformed crap.
Also, irritant:
Stop drawing conclusions from what MoP said. It seems a bit premature to start firing of your "HAHA I KNEW IT, you thought they were angry!", since he said the same thing about white guys.
If i'm walking down the street at night, i WOULD rather switch sides than walk past a group of young men, no matter wether they're black or white. I've learned that this really is the best way.
And i don't think anyone is completely without prejudice, but some of us do try, while some of us are degenerate idiots who like to shock others by throwing around blatantly stupid generalisations.
Things like these are completely useless to debate on the internet. Everyone's anonymous, and more than eager to make an ass of himself. There's no moderation, and everything that's said has to be a very b/w sort thing, just to drive your point home.
You don't "sort of feel uneasy around french people", you hate their fucking guts and wish they would explode or learn your language.
Just a silly little example, ofcourse.
Er, Pea, I think you've misinterpreted Irritant's reply to my post... I don't think it was a "HAHA I KNEW IT" thing... maybe I just don't read things with your level of aggressive cynicism
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MoP: i'm far from cynical, but it did seem like he was more or less putting words into your mouth. Maybe i just took it the wrong way, could be.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, sorry if it sounded that way. Re-reading my posts, I can see why it did.
What I agreed with him was, that seeing anyone who appears "aggressive", white, black, asian, etc, raises your defense systems. I was trying to point out that what some people see as "aggressive" is often different, and that some just see *any* black man(or middle easterner, etc), and feel he fits that category, and that given certain past events, track records, etc, it's understandable some think that way(like I said, I don't).
I don't think we are in as much disagreement as it may seem. I totally believe it's wrong to lump everyone from a race together. At the same time, I *don't* think it's wrong to look at say, crime stats, and say, hmmm, maybe this group or that group of people has a problem in their society that needs addressing, etc. I know, I know, maybe it's not my place to do so.
Nah, it's also partly because i've had to deal with a lot of the "setting up", up to the point where i might be "spotting" it too soon.
Also, i think we're in agreement a lot...
allthough i can't agree with you on your comment on crime stats. You're using race (if by "group of people", you ment race, you might as well have meant social class) to look for these things, whereas location, social class, and education have quite a lot to do with it as well.
I'd expect there to be a lot more racial "issues" (ie crime by black people) in Brussels North (where i go to school) than where i love, because brussels-N is filled with crappy houses, the redlight district, homeless people, and the living conditions are terrible... and who lives there? excactly: illegal immigrants and just plain poor (but legal) immigrants. Often the legal immigrants don't see much of anything in terms of wellfare either because they don't know where to go.
Also, this neighbourhood is just a clash of cultures... the largest part is turkish (in Belgium most of our immigrants, be they first- or thirdgeneration, are turkish, much like in the uk i think they're from india, and in america african, right?), then you have smaller groups of slavic people, asian, and a few black people.
Replies
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050620/ap_o...zkxBHNlYwN0bQ--
On a sidenote I heard its fake. Anyone knows?
You'd HOPE it was fake and a person didn't die for an ad and all... ¬_¬
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I think what he meant by "fake," was that it wasn't actually a commercial created by VW.
Hell of an ad. Palm..? You'd HOPE it was fake and a person didn't die for an ad and all... ¬_¬
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so what would that person be trying to say? that all middle eastern people are terrorists? this is only racist against terrorists. the people who would claim this to be racist are in fact more racist then the advertising..
racist.. such a bullshit word now a days anyway..
thanks for sharing
This is absolutly hilarious
Hm, it's WMV yet it plays. I have installed those beta drivers from the BF2 demo... Other WMVs seem to work as well.
I can't determine whether that is a high form of humour/social criticism or just a sad testament to the logic of today.
But I was creeping around mightyrighty.com ... yeah I love that site. Hard facts, hard people, empty heads ...
"Because liberals are damn wrong" ... I love that one.
It's both, but I don't like arabs and yet I like racism even less and you shouldn't have to like a people to want them to have their rights and yet I don't trust them and what right are infringed upon by me laughing at the general stupidity of the middle east and my angry stares and ducking behind bunkers whenever a taxi approaches but then doesn't that make me guilty of the same thing I condem...
[/ QUOTE ]
....
Are you joking, or just dumb?
Frank the Avenger
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Why not make a little comercial (with a fun twist) for guns, using the Columbine school shootings? Its just as tasteless. No difference. At least if its only air it in Europe.
Its racist because it plays on the white mans prejudice against Middle Eastern people. Or the Arabs as we like to call them.;)
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Why not make a little comercial (with a fun twist) for guns, using the Columbine school shootings? Its just as tasteless. No difference. At least if its only air it in Europe.
[/ QUOTE ]
that raises a very valid point. Whats the difference?
Volkswagon Tough vs. Glock19 Durability + controversial issues in the world = funny stuff, but can hurt someone out there.
I don't like arabs and yet I like racism even less
I can't determine whether that is a high form of humour/social criticism or just a sad testament to the logic of today.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a problem I have. I hate them for what's happened but I'm uncomfortable with the idea of hating a whole people for the actions of a few (or even the majority) but I also don't trust them. So I'm stuck in a limbo of a sorts. It's all very muddy. I miss the cold war where we had clear cut properly demonized enemies.
I don't like arabs and yet I like racism even less
I can't determine whether that is a high form of humour/social criticism or just a sad testament to the logic of today.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's just Cain KDR. He's just not a very good human being I'm afraid.
Cain, I'd be *very* careful with that kind of stuff on these messageboards If I were you. Save it for whitepower.com ( I just made that up, but I'm sure it exists )
My history teacher once said "The americans always need enemies they can antagonize. Russians, Nazis, Arabs, whathaveyou. It's fascinating, the worse the economy the more wars America fights".
We stumbled across the StormFront messageboards one day while searching for some GTA stuff. Now that *IS* scary. And it's like a car crash, you can't stop reading.
Case in point: http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=190878&highlight=gta
I've just re-read the first post and I *STILL* can't believe people are that ignorant or filled with so much hatred.
I have noticed that we tend to turn in on ourselves when there's no enemy to fight, good thing there will always be someone new and or improved enemy to fight, insuring national unity in the face of true evil.
Not sure I follow you Weiser. Turn in on yourselves? Who are yourselves exactly? America is a racial melting pot. Many Arabs are 'American'. So you declaring your hatred for them get's a bit tricky dont you see?
There's a large amount of people of most races that are perfectly open-minded and racism isn't a motivation for them.
I certainly find pride a great thing to have so long as it doesn't interfere with your interaction with others, I certainly find places like stormfront rediculous. Sounds like a place my father would quickly become a moderator of.. if he isn't already.
I hate these conversations I end up losing my direction, I think I have.
Basically there's scum and quality peeps in every race and all are capable of the same atrocities.
If you'll go back and reread my post all it is talking about is the tricky situation I'm in. I can't forgive them and I can't write them all off.
"I don't like arabs".
You've clearly led a sheltered existence. I bet you've never left America, and never had any friends beyond the people that are very similiar to yourself. We'll never see eye to eye you and me, and that's totally cool with me.
The arabs are the ones that group themselves that way. I don't pretend to be superior to them. I don't like their ways and I don't trust them. The feeling is mutual, and I've heard a hell of a lot worse from them anyway, yet I don't hear anything from you about any of that. And I hear no doubt in their position in the thing they say. Drop you or me in a middle eastern country and I bet you we'll both get our heads chopped off no matter how understanding we try to be.
[ QUOTE ]
Its racist because it plays on the white mans prejudice against Middle Eastern people. Or the Arabs as we like to call them.;)
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this was ment to be funny?
[troll]
But...
Its not just "white people" that are scared/prejudice agaist Middle Eastrern ppl. It is there to some degree in all western culture countries and Nationalities. Like it was said before America is not really "all white rich folks from the south" its a big melting pot and most of us, are dirt poor and a mix of backgrounds. Also that is a prety broad generlization to say all white people are prejudice.
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I would lump Cain in with the paranoid crowd rather than the racist crowd. I would consider what he says to be racist, but it sounds like it is coming from fear of the unknown instead of typical racist hate speach which claims to be supriour. I think Daz hit the nail on the head when he made mention he hasn't socialized with too many people that are not like him. Until I was 11 I grew up in Bothell washington back then it wasn't really anyone around much less anyone that didn't have light skin. But then we started moving around, Aust, New Zealand, minesota, Georgia, Florida, California and back to washington state. Not like those are cultrual melting pots but I did get a chance to met a bunch of different kids that where not like me. When I met up with my old childhood friends I found them to be much like cain.
Cain, living close to some place is not the same as living there or even being friends with people that live "over there". I'm not saying you need start taking applications to ballance out your "arab" friend quota. But next time instead of hiding behind a bunker wall when a "taxi" drives by flsh them a smile and a head nod. Don't let your fear keep you from being friendly. [humor]Who knows maybe if they are "one of the crazies" and you happen to be one of the nice guys they see every day they might wait till you are not around to blow up a volkswagon. if not well atleast you go down smiling
He also comes across as the type to talk tough on a message board (which we are all guilty of) and not really say that stuff on the street. Ahh the mircle of the internet, every female becomes hot, and every male becomes 1337. Everyone learns to even out thier "interweb persona" and post with a level head after a few smacks. Some people take longer to figure it out. I think that was the the point daz was making, and was missed by some?
I grew up in chicago, humbolt park, right down the street from the projects, hardly a sheltered city or life. I'd bet my soul, if I weren't an atheist, that I've experienced more racisim firsthand that you ever will, and I'm talking about the real thing.
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Haha awesome. It's turned into a 'my town/upbringing was tougher than yours!' debate!
The only reason I brought this up is that Daz presumes too much. I've experienced racisim first hand and I guess that why I resist the almost visceral reaction to the people that dropped a plane or two on new york, etc.
Yeah, maybe it's a little paranoid but I'll error on cautions side untill I see enough proof otherwise.
As it is I'd feel like a jerk, and a lier if I went out and made one arab friend just to say I have one. I already have and had arab friends, though I didn't think about that sort of thing at the time.
To be fair I'm not very friendly to anyone anyway on the street.
Daz I hear ya
This was however a little more turned down than his prior hate speach... which... might be a postive step in some direction that might be toward the path, that leads to that area, next to thing, by the other stuff that is postive and not full of hate speach?
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Not friendly to anyone on the street... I am sure that makes you a peach to work with. This might be closer to the heart of the issue and why you don't trust "strangers". Do you not smile because you are afraid they might not "smile back" or because you think anger is cool and you have to tromp around and be angry to be cool?
Just depends where and why you are - screw how YOU think of yourself, it's how others see You.
And people generally don't think highly of those who are different from themselves.. (here again an unfounded generalization, but sadly one of the Real ones)
You shouldn't judge an entire culture because of a small group of self-detonating idiots. It's not like any other part of the world is immune from being brainwashed by a religious fruitcake with power to act without questioning.
I change sides when I see a group of youths/early twenties guys approaching. At least the kind that looks like they'd harass random people to look cool.
How many of you would feel comfortable walking alone at night in the city, and be approached by a group of young black men?
How many of you would feel totally comfortable in an airplane and have a group of middle eastern men sitting in together in the next isle? You can't tell me that you wouldn't sneak a glance or two over to see if they were up to anything.
These things do not make a person racist. They don't even make him prejudiced, at least not in the way of a bigot.
Stereotypes exist for a reason. There is always some degree of truth to them, and yet in our neutured, overly PC society, it is taboo to talk about them.
People fear Arabs, well, because a few of them have decided to be cowardly losers and blow up some innocent people. It hasn't helped that there hasn't been as overwhelming a condemnation on the few by the collective majority of Arabs as many would like to have seen. There are a number of sympathizers, even in Western countries. It's only natural for people to be a little suspicious of their intentions in these days and times. If one bee happens to sting you, you tend to be a little leary of all bees, even if they are just going about their business.
So was it racist to put an Arab in the VW? No. That's who's blowing themselves up in public areas. Should they have put a black man, or a Latino woman in the car instead?
The hatred towards Arabs that has reared it's head in this world can be directly atributed to the actions of a few Arabs. It sucks for those the majority, who have no ill will towards anyone, but if they want it to end, they need to clean up their house.
WOW how humor has changed. I remember the days (not that long ago) when this would have gotten a chuckle and not sparked such a "hot debate". I remeber movies making fun of "terrorists" and "funny generalizations" and no one thought twice about it.
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I thought it was funny, but then, I didn't see it as prejudiced towards Arabs, but prejudiced towards people that BLOW THEMSELVES UP TO MAKE A POINT. And to be honest, it's not even 'prejudiced' against them, it's just a joke at their expense. Poor dead people, they must be so hurt by this little film.
I don't care where you come from, if you're going to blow yourself up and try to take innocents with you, you're an asshole.
And Cain, not all Arabs are suicide bombers. Not all suicide bombers are Arabs. If you can get that through your head, maybe you won't be so quick to judge people by ethnicity.
Frank the Avenger
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How many of you would feel comfortable walking alone at night in the city, and be approached by a group of young black men?
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I'd react the same if I was approached by a gang of aggressive-looking white guys, Indian guys, Africans, Australian Aboriginals, Martians... it's nothing to do with race, it's to do with personality and demeanour.
I wouldn't feel any safer if there were a bunch of angry white guys wandering around late at night.
But what makes you think black guy == criminal? That doesn't come from personal experience because I'm pretty sure you weren't victim of many violent crimes. Isn't it more like one of those "liberal" movies (I think it was Bowling) claim, that the media emphasize crimes commited by black people to make everyone think there are more criminal blacks than whites? I know BfC claims that the US is much more fear-driven than the rest of the world. That's probably the reason you think of Arabs as terrorists so easily just because a few have blown themselves up in your country.
BTW, here the "groups of young black men" are arabs. Turks, to be precise. I don't think anyone is afraid of them exploding at any given moment. Back when Germany had terrorists and introduced all those "security measures" the terrorists were whites, mostly from the upper social classes. Does that mean I think every businessman is a terrorist?
I'm pretty sure we even have mafia activity but apparently the maf only deals with those from its own country.
I'd react the same if I was approached by a gang of aggressive-looking white guys, Indian guys, Africans, Australian Aboriginals, Martians... it's nothing to do with race, it's to do with personality and demeanour.
I wouldn't feel any safer if there were a bunch of angry white guys wandering around late at night.
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LOL, right, that was kind of what I was getting at. To alot of people, just being young and black, makes them appear thuggy and aggressive. It's not really their fault that they feel that way, because at least where I was from, Baltimore, something like 60% of black men were either in or had been in the prison system. Now "why" this number is so high, that is irrelevant, and another argument altogether. The fact remains that it is, and it lends to the prejudice that when you see a young black man, he's automatically a threat, because the odds say it's likely he is.
This really isn't the same thing as saying "all black men are criminals, or all Arabs are terrorists", it's more of a natural self-preservation mode.
Some people, I suspect such as Weiser, have a difficult time sorting their feelings out when it comes to things like this. Perhaps some people are less trusting than others. Might not have as much to do with racial issues than as something a little more deeply rooted.
But what makes you think black guy == criminal? That doesn't come from personal experience because I'm pretty sure you weren't victim of many violent crimes. Isn't it more like one of those "liberal" movies (I think it was Bowling) claim, that the media emphasize crimes commited by black people to make everyone think there are more criminal blacks than whites?
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Actually KDR, you can look up crime statistics that pretty much blow Moore's "media conspiracy theories" right out of the water.
Let me say, I am not generally afraid of walking down the street and running into a few black guys. Trust me. Maybe I should be when in certain places, but I am not. I don't look at a black guy, or an arab, and automatically think, oh, he's a criminal or terrorist. Sure, there are certain demeanors or activities that might make me think that, but it takes more than the color of one's skin.
My main point is, alot of people don't think that way, they see the skin, and the thoughts creep into their heads, and I guess what I'm saying is, you cannot automatically condemn them as racists.
As far as being a victim of violent crime...well...I did live in Baltimore for 7 years. I've been jumped by people, robbed by people, and had a bullet go through my windshield while at a traffic light, narrowly missing my head, which the perp was aiming for, presumably to steal my car. They were all black, and I lived in a mostly white neighborhood.
*** You are ignoring this user ***
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It's the end of your frustrations. You'll no longer be annoyed at reading flagrant stupidity, and misinformed crap.
Also, irritant:
Stop drawing conclusions from what MoP said. It seems a bit premature to start firing of your "HAHA I KNEW IT, you thought they were angry!", since he said the same thing about white guys.
If i'm walking down the street at night, i WOULD rather switch sides than walk past a group of young men, no matter wether they're black or white. I've learned that this really is the best way.
And i don't think anyone is completely without prejudice, but some of us do try, while some of us are degenerate idiots who like to shock others by throwing around blatantly stupid generalisations.
Things like these are completely useless to debate on the internet. Everyone's anonymous, and more than eager to make an ass of himself. There's no moderation, and everything that's said has to be a very b/w sort thing, just to drive your point home.
You don't "sort of feel uneasy around french people", you hate their fucking guts and wish they would explode or learn your language.
Just a silly little example, ofcourse.
MoP: i'm far from cynical, but it did seem like he was more or less putting words into your mouth. Maybe i just took it the wrong way, could be.
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Ah, sorry if it sounded that way. Re-reading my posts, I can see why it did.
What I agreed with him was, that seeing anyone who appears "aggressive", white, black, asian, etc, raises your defense systems. I was trying to point out that what some people see as "aggressive" is often different, and that some just see *any* black man(or middle easterner, etc), and feel he fits that category, and that given certain past events, track records, etc, it's understandable some think that way(like I said, I don't).
I don't think we are in as much disagreement as it may seem. I totally believe it's wrong to lump everyone from a race together. At the same time, I *don't* think it's wrong to look at say, crime stats, and say, hmmm, maybe this group or that group of people has a problem in their society that needs addressing, etc. I know, I know, maybe it's not my place to do so.
Also, i think we're in agreement a lot...
allthough i can't agree with you on your comment on crime stats. You're using race (if by "group of people", you ment race, you might as well have meant social class) to look for these things, whereas location, social class, and education have quite a lot to do with it as well.
I'd expect there to be a lot more racial "issues" (ie crime by black people) in Brussels North (where i go to school) than where i love, because brussels-N is filled with crappy houses, the redlight district, homeless people, and the living conditions are terrible... and who lives there? excactly: illegal immigrants and just plain poor (but legal) immigrants. Often the legal immigrants don't see much of anything in terms of wellfare either because they don't know where to go.
Also, this neighbourhood is just a clash of cultures... the largest part is turkish (in Belgium most of our immigrants, be they first- or thirdgeneration, are turkish, much like in the uk i think they're from india, and in america african, right?), then you have smaller groups of slavic people, asian, and a few black people.