1000 posts DAZ. Freaking weird controllers, might work, haven't seen any scale comparisons. And gimme fully dynamic worlds instead of just pretty polygons! Please Sony, for the love of God, use the extra processing power for AI and dynamics instead! I want a new version of Elite!
The baseunit looks horrible and why seven controllers? No 4vs4? Multiple formats sounds interesting but not something I really need.
That Revolution video has to be made by Nintendo though. Smokescreens and mirrors and whatnots. I'm hoping Nintendo doesn't cavein and starts trying to compete with Sony and MS over the whole retarded "homecinema-stero-amzinglaserdevice", gimme the best games instead...
As far as a tech demo goes, it proves the hardware can do it, PERIOD. Now multiply that power 3x over, still not convinced it's possible?
The PS2 CPU has 6.2GigaFLOP performance. The PS3 has 2TeraFLOP capability. That's more than 320x the CPU performance of the PS2 (1000 gigflop=1 teraflop)
With specs like that, I think it should be quite possible.
Ive looked. That aint popup. When pre-rendered movies are made, they're rendered in layers. Characters, background etc. Someone has fucked up with the comping.
No, Im not convinced. You're totally fooling yourself by buying into this nonsense and you're horribly wrong! I dont care what math you throw at me. I aint buying many many characters on screen at once all with animated strands of hair. There is just no way. Do the math on that!
I'm not "buying" into this at all. I'm skeptical, just not as much as you
I think that it's a possibility it's in-game, but I'm not holding my breath. The system has the power to render it, though I'm unsure that Guerilla has mastered it, as you say.
Well that sounds distinctly like backtracking to me! A second ago you're blatantly telling me I'm wrong. I can't believe you peeps would get sucked into this hype.
Just to be super anal before I hit the hay and prove the comp error: Frames advance from left to right. In CG movies, chars are ALWAYS rendered on a seperate layer. Note how in the first frame, both guys ARE actually totally in the scene. They dont 'pop up' at all. It's simply that in a desperate rush to get this movie rendered for E3, some tired compositor has accidentally laid the mid ground layer in front of the character layer:
There is absolutely no logical reason for the PS3 to have drawn the character polygons and the background polygons in the wrong order.
I actually think daz is onto something here, either the ps3 is a monstermachine, not anything like we've seen before, and killzone2 is the second coming,.. or that trailer is just a pr-trick, and quite so prerendered..
Even though I'd love killzone2 to look like that, I dont believe it'll ever happen, there's just no sign of gameplay graphics that you'd normally see even in a the latest games, even gears of war has stuff that makes you see it's ingame graphics...
Only ID could deliver something that revolutionary graphically speaking I totally agree with DAZ at this point ... now onto Motor Madness ...my god ive never been into racing games but that just looks amazing and fun !
I never blatantly said anything. I said the PS3 CAN render scenes like that, and I think it can. Seeing that pic clear as such, seems to point to the Killzone movie being fake. Though that doesn't change my mind on the PS3's performance ability.
I'd like to know why the actual geometry changes in that pic, though. In the frame that the men are overlapped, the railing is white, and appears to be a billboard. But in the other frame, it's quite clearly geometry. Goofy.
[ QUOTE ]
The PS3 GPU has more power than 2x6800 ULTRA cards.
[/ QUOTE ]
I hate this sort of comparison; it's completely useless. There are so many factors that contribute to the performance of a piece of hardware, that you can't just say that "this" piece of hardware is "X" as many times more powerful than "that" piece of hardware based on the number of Ghz or Gigabytes. It's like assuming that an H2 Hummer with 380hp is twice as fast as a 190hp Lotus Elise.
After looking at the screens for Metronome I have to say Im fairly intrigued at least by the art. This is one of the few next gen games I've seen a preview for that looks different from the average shootem up or racing game.
There are only so many articles I'm willing to read through without finding the information I want before giving up in disgust. Has anyone read anything that indicates WHEN the PS3 will be released stateside? Since a date is obviously not being trumpeted from the hillside, I'm assuming that means not this year...
Okay, so I'm reading through Daz's fairly passionate arguments here and then I'm looking at the PS3 specs as liste over at IGN...
While I agree that it's more sensible to have a show-me skepticism about technology, if these numbers are real, no one here really knows what it can do. The processor has 7 simultaneous cores, and a hypothetical top end of 218 gigaflop performance? None of us has any idea what on Earth that kind of parallel processing is like - it's almost double what the Xbox 360 claims. 3.2ghz system ram is also way beyond what we've got on our desktops. The video card floating point spec is frankly unbelievable, 1.8 teraflop performance from this new Nvidia core. That's obviously a VERY theoretical number, but so exceptionally fast that if they can approach it... well, again, none of us has ever seen anything like it.
The Killzone video is obviously scripted, but so was the realtime HL2 video from E3 2003. Insofar as whether that's rendered, yeah, it sure looks like it to me, but until I get some actual uncompressed screenshots, I won't rule anything in or out.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes and as we all know PS2 games had graphics on par with movie-quality prerendered CG, right?
In other words, those are theoretical numbers that will NEVER EVER be reached in actual usage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Did I somehow not make my skepticism perfectly clear? I used the terms "hypothetical" and "unbelievable" in describing these numbers - which word do I need to explain to you?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but until I get some actual uncompressed screenshots, I won't rule anything in or out.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now that looks pre-renderd ...lol
[/ QUOTE ]
I also think the Killzone stuff looks pre-rendered. I said I wanted to see an uncompressed screenshot before deciding. This is a deliberately framed, scaled and compressed web promo image put together by Sony, and they can show us anything they want.
It really doesn't matter how great the graphics will be for the PS3 if it's not used properly. Some big companies will use it for all its advantages. But still, many companies will still be releasing games with crappy last gen artwork when it comes to realism. Or, mind blowing visuals, no gameplay. Same story as last gen. Not every kid with a cool hobby can keep up with the pace technology is improving.
wow... I can't believe people in here think that's rendered in real time.
Daz is a very wise man.
The main thing about the PS3 is that no company can accuratly mimic all those cell processors running together. So, even if the PS3 can do some of this stuff in real-time, that trailer was pre-rendered, hands down.
As well, My experience working with Blur for our cinemats for the past couple years, they use in game assets whenever possible. ESPECIALLY when the time constraint is very short. This causes that 'hybrid in-game / cinemat' feel.
The Killzone trailer is obviously a 'pre-visualization' of what expectations are for the PS3. Sadly, I think this is a great disservice to our industry. Getting people's hopes up and not being able to deliver. EA is doing the same thing with their Fight Night, Madden, and Need for Speed trailers.
Just read that Square has announced XBox360 support. That'll take some wind out of Sony's sails. I'm glad to see it actually. I've always hated Sony for snaking Square from nintendo.
i am going for nintendo this round.. but.. this is an excerpt from the current EGM..(i bought it for the new zelda screens)...
Change of Plans
While mums the word on software for Ninendo's next-gen machine,folks won't stop yappin' about what they've got in store for Playstation3 and Xbox2. But listen to this juicy piece of scutlebutt:i heard that as soon as several big-time gamemakers actually saw the capbilities of Sony's upcoming system, they decided to move their Xbox2 projecs to PS3. Sorry,Xbots.
we have seen what the Xbox can do.. apparently there is something about the new playstation develpers like better.. what that is i still am unclear bout.. maybe all will be answered at E3
Nah, don't like the look. Either make it a console, or make it fit in with your AV rack. Not somewhere in the middle. xbox360 is just on the edge of console looks, imo.
Killzone is three years away, so pre-rendered is a fairly safe assumption
Verm: Im not saying anything about the PS3. All Im simply saying is that that is a pre-rendered movie. And that's a cold hard fact. I hate to dissapoint a couple of you who might think that the we have suddenly reached the point where we can make games that have absolutely no visual difference between them and film quality computer graphics, but there is simply no way that that can be mathematically possible. Yes, the PS3's numbers are very,very impressive. Yes, it's hazy what the machine is capable of. But anyone who's ever done any serious rendering would be able to look at exactly what's happening in these shots and know that there is just no way. The hair alone illustrates that.
I dont meant to be mean about this at all, but anyone believing that this is anything other than a CG movie is totally buying into the Sony hype machine. It's up to you. As skank touched on, it really bugs me when Sony and EA pull off stunts like this. There shoule be laws in place ( in the UK I believe its called the trade descriptions act ) to protect the consumer.
I'm not disagreeing, just saying that *I* can't really tell from a streaming 320x240 video. I can't even see what the hair is doing to say whether it's legit or not - too small, too dark, too grainy. Insofar as what the next gen consoles can do? Well, I'm used to new console tech making contemporary PC hardware look bad, so I make a point not to rule anything until I hear confirmation one way or the other. I'm sort of an E3 agnostic
I agree that this trend of faked game footage really sucks. Really, from the developer's standpoint, why aren't those guys embarassed when their product rolls out and looks inferior to the marketing? I guess if the publishers shovel enough money in the door, the suits just nods their heads and send everyone back to work, but I'd think the employees at Guerilla would be a bit pissed about this kind of thing: "sorry, your work just isn't good enough to show as it really is, so we're going to fake it with a rendered video and *pretend* it's game footage." I'd be more than a little unhappy.
[ QUOTE ]
Sonic: no, it doesn't compare. Don't get me wrong, U3 engine looks stunning. But it also looks just about feasible. Now go look at the Killzone shots again. Closely. If you know anything about lighting, you'll see that the character models are radiosity lit by their environment. And look at that guys hair. And look at the close up of the arm in the left of the screen. The resolution on that texture and bump is just out of this world. And show me one hint of a polygonal edge anywhere. I dont buy those shots for one minute.
[/ QUOTE ]
I understand, but I, like you, also doubted that that was the true game, and that Sony was bullshitting us. I doubt with this little time to make a Killzone demo that they coded it all that well to run on the cell chip. But the Unreal3 demo has not only been on XBOX, but on computer, proving that it's real.
I'll believe anything Sony says about their hardware when I can actually play it.
Remember the PSX launch?
Remember how powerful Sony where saying it was going to be?
Remember all those awesome screenshots they released and said that was what all the games where going to look like?
Remember the PS2 launch?
Remember how powerful Sony where saying it was going to be?
Remember all those awesome screenshots they released and said that was what all the games where going to look like?
Yeah, I think you get the idea.
Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it.
Same goes for Xbox 360 and Revolution.
I have no doubt that the games will look utterly incredible, but I'm not sure about being quite that good looking.
I do however, hope I'm wrong and every shot released are all genuine in game shots.
hey Negadeth, as far as i remember the ps1 screenshots etc were pretty poor compared to what they eventually squeezed out of the system , wot did it have , 33 mhz cpu ... we should be playing on movie looking games by now . the processors are a lot faster ...
how about jet set willie daz , if it wasnt for that i wouldnt have won a game of trivial persutes with my mum a few weeks back , .... jet set willy taught me what Hades was...
[ QUOTE ]
As far as a tech demo goes, it proves the hardware can do it, PERIOD. Now multiply that power 3x over, still not convinced it's possible?
The PS2 CPU has 6.2GigaFLOP performance. The PS3 has 2TeraFLOP capability. That's more than 320x the CPU performance of the PS2 (1000 gigflop=1 teraflop)
With specs like that, I think it should be quite possible.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please tell me that you don't really believe it's 320 times more powerful...
Vassago's numbers are a bit inaccurate, at least with regard to the PS3 specs. The CPU has a listed floating ops throughput of 218 gflops. The 2 tflops number comes from some 'fuzzy math', adding the CPU and GPU numbers together (like the old Atari Jaguar "64-bit" console).
Anyway, how can you debate something like this, sonic? He didn't actually say "more powerful", but how would you measure that anyway? If I run Quake 3 on a 3.0ghz machine and you run it on a 300mhz machine, am I seeing ten times the improvement? I mean, I don't know how we can measure that sort of thing; most of the specs posted for console hardware are just geeky tech-fap material, with no real benchmarking purpose. I understand the fundamentals of circuit design and can't begin to guess what a 1.8 tflop GPU is capable of, because GPUs have such a specific operational paramter (math for video output, basically). 1.8 tflops is lower end supercomputer CPU range, but no one is going to replace their beowulf clusters with GPU chips ripped from PS3 units, right? There's just no way to make a specific measurement for degree of improvement.
Hey people.I've made a little video showing the clipping glitch.If it's a pre-rendered movie, seeing the quality of it, I don't think something like that can go unseen.Unless they did it on purpose.I am sure it isn't a bad composition,it definitly looks like a clipping failure to me. http://users.coditel.net/COD11731/kill.wmv
Er, I dont get it sorry. What is your video meant to prove?
It shows in video exactly what I showed in static frames. It doesn't prove wether or not it's a clipping or compositing error. The hair on the characters however, proves that this is a pre-rendered movie. I allredy know that it is for a fact after further researching tonight based on Ricks comments about the Axis CG shop in Glasgow helping Guerilla games with the movie.
Wouldn't it maybe be possible to do this on the PS3, but not in realtime? That they've scripted the scene in-game then just made the PS3 render it, captured the frames and strung them together. All the while expecting/presuming to be able to bring the time per frame down to something acceptable before the game actually comes out?
If you look closely, the enemies who are supposed to drive the car also spawn.I'm 100% sure this is a scripted sequence rendered with the game's engine and not a pre-rendered movie rendered with a huge render farm.
Replies
The baseunit looks horrible and why seven controllers? No 4vs4? Multiple formats sounds interesting but not something I really need.
That Revolution video has to be made by Nintendo though. Smokescreens and mirrors and whatnots. I'm hoping Nintendo doesn't cavein and starts trying to compete with Sony and MS over the whole retarded "homecinema-stero-amzinglaserdevice", gimme the best games instead...
The PS2 CPU has 6.2GigaFLOP performance. The PS3 has 2TeraFLOP capability. That's more than 320x the CPU performance of the PS2 (1000 gigflop=1 teraflop)
With specs like that, I think it should be quite possible.
No, Im not convinced. You're totally fooling yourself by buying into this nonsense and you're horribly wrong! I dont care what math you throw at me. I aint buying many many characters on screen at once all with animated strands of hair. There is just no way. Do the math on that!
I think that it's a possibility it's in-game, but I'm not holding my breath. The system has the power to render it, though I'm unsure that Guerilla has mastered it, as you say.
Just to be super anal before I hit the hay and prove the comp error: Frames advance from left to right. In CG movies, chars are ALWAYS rendered on a seperate layer. Note how in the first frame, both guys ARE actually totally in the scene. They dont 'pop up' at all. It's simply that in a desperate rush to get this movie rendered for E3, some tired compositor has accidentally laid the mid ground layer in front of the character layer:
There is absolutely no logical reason for the PS3 to have drawn the character polygons and the background polygons in the wrong order.
Even though I'd love killzone2 to look like that, I dont believe it'll ever happen, there's just no sign of gameplay graphics that you'd normally see even in a the latest games, even gears of war has stuff that makes you see it's ingame graphics...
Suffice it to say, I think youre right.
Didnt the Xbox show a pre rendered movie and said it was gameplay as it was coming out too?
I'd like to know why the actual geometry changes in that pic, though. In the frame that the men are overlapped, the railing is white, and appears to be a billboard. But in the other frame, it's quite clearly geometry. Goofy.
The PS3 GPU has more power than 2x6800 ULTRA cards.
[/ QUOTE ]
I hate this sort of comparison; it's completely useless. There are so many factors that contribute to the performance of a piece of hardware, that you can't just say that "this" piece of hardware is "X" as many times more powerful than "that" piece of hardware based on the number of Ghz or Gigabytes. It's like assuming that an H2 Hummer with 380hp is twice as fast as a 190hp Lotus Elise.
http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/741/741151/imgs_1.html
While I agree that it's more sensible to have a show-me skepticism about technology, if these numbers are real, no one here really knows what it can do. The processor has 7 simultaneous cores, and a hypothetical top end of 218 gigaflop performance? None of us has any idea what on Earth that kind of parallel processing is like - it's almost double what the Xbox 360 claims. 3.2ghz system ram is also way beyond what we've got on our desktops. The video card floating point spec is frankly unbelievable, 1.8 teraflop performance from this new Nvidia core. That's obviously a VERY theoretical number, but so exceptionally fast that if they can approach it... well, again, none of us has ever seen anything like it.
The Killzone video is obviously scripted, but so was the realtime HL2 video from E3 2003. Insofar as whether that's rendered, yeah, it sure looks like it to me, but until I get some actual uncompressed screenshots, I won't rule anything in or out.
In other words, those are theoretical numbers that will NEVER EVER be reached in actual usage.
but until I get some actual uncompressed screenshots, I won't rule anything in or out.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now that looks pre-renderd ...lol
Yes and as we all know PS2 games had graphics on par with movie-quality prerendered CG, right?
In other words, those are theoretical numbers that will NEVER EVER be reached in actual usage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Did I somehow not make my skepticism perfectly clear? I used the terms "hypothetical" and "unbelievable" in describing these numbers - which word do I need to explain to you?
[ QUOTE ]
but until I get some actual uncompressed screenshots, I won't rule anything in or out.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now that looks pre-renderd ...lol
[/ QUOTE ]
I also think the Killzone stuff looks pre-rendered. I said I wanted to see an uncompressed screenshot before deciding. This is a deliberately framed, scaled and compressed web promo image put together by Sony, and they can show us anything they want.
Daz is a very wise man.
The main thing about the PS3 is that no company can accuratly mimic all those cell processors running together. So, even if the PS3 can do some of this stuff in real-time, that trailer was pre-rendered, hands down.
As well, My experience working with Blur for our cinemats for the past couple years, they use in game assets whenever possible. ESPECIALLY when the time constraint is very short. This causes that 'hybrid in-game / cinemat' feel.
The Killzone trailer is obviously a 'pre-visualization' of what expectations are for the PS3. Sadly, I think this is a great disservice to our industry. Getting people's hopes up and not being able to deliver. EA is doing the same thing with their Fight Night, Madden, and Need for Speed trailers.
I'm sure the female gaming audience will love the ps3 controllers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Quick...make a game with lots of uppey downey jolty bits!
Change of Plans
While mums the word on software for Ninendo's next-gen machine,folks won't stop yappin' about what they've got in store for Playstation3 and Xbox2. But listen to this juicy piece of scutlebutt:i heard that as soon as several big-time gamemakers actually saw the capbilities of Sony's upcoming system, they decided to move their Xbox2 projecs to PS3. Sorry,Xbots.
we have seen what the Xbox can do.. apparently there is something about the new playstation develpers like better.. what that is i still am unclear bout.. maybe all will be answered at E3
Nah, don't like the look. Either make it a console, or make it fit in with your AV rack. Not somewhere in the middle. xbox360 is just on the edge of console looks, imo.
Killzone is three years away, so pre-rendered is a fairly safe assumption
I dont meant to be mean about this at all, but anyone believing that this is anything other than a CG movie is totally buying into the Sony hype machine. It's up to you. As skank touched on, it really bugs me when Sony and EA pull off stunts like this. There shoule be laws in place ( in the UK I believe its called the trade descriptions act ) to protect the consumer.
I agree that this trend of faked game footage really sucks. Really, from the developer's standpoint, why aren't those guys embarassed when their product rolls out and looks inferior to the marketing? I guess if the publishers shovel enough money in the door, the suits just nods their heads and send everyone back to work, but I'd think the employees at Guerilla would be a bit pissed about this kind of thing: "sorry, your work just isn't good enough to show as it really is, so we're going to fake it with a rendered video and *pretend* it's game footage." I'd be more than a little unhappy.
Sonic: no, it doesn't compare. Don't get me wrong, U3 engine looks stunning. But it also looks just about feasible. Now go look at the Killzone shots again. Closely. If you know anything about lighting, you'll see that the character models are radiosity lit by their environment. And look at that guys hair. And look at the close up of the arm in the left of the screen. The resolution on that texture and bump is just out of this world. And show me one hint of a polygonal edge anywhere. I dont buy those shots for one minute.
[/ QUOTE ]
I understand, but I, like you, also doubted that that was the true game, and that Sony was bullshitting us. I doubt with this little time to make a Killzone demo that they coded it all that well to run on the cell chip. But the Unreal3 demo has not only been on XBOX, but on computer, proving that it's real.
Remember the PSX launch?
Remember how powerful Sony where saying it was going to be?
Remember all those awesome screenshots they released and said that was what all the games where going to look like?
Remember the PS2 launch?
Remember how powerful Sony where saying it was going to be?
Remember all those awesome screenshots they released and said that was what all the games where going to look like?
Yeah, I think you get the idea.
Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it.
Same goes for Xbox 360 and Revolution.
I have no doubt that the games will look utterly incredible, but I'm not sure about being quite that good looking.
I do however, hope I'm wrong and every shot released are all genuine in game shots.
As far as a tech demo goes, it proves the hardware can do it, PERIOD. Now multiply that power 3x over, still not convinced it's possible?
The PS2 CPU has 6.2GigaFLOP performance. The PS3 has 2TeraFLOP capability. That's more than 320x the CPU performance of the PS2 (1000 gigflop=1 teraflop)
With specs like that, I think it should be quite possible.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please tell me that you don't really believe it's 320 times more powerful...
Anyway, how can you debate something like this, sonic? He didn't actually say "more powerful", but how would you measure that anyway? If I run Quake 3 on a 3.0ghz machine and you run it on a 300mhz machine, am I seeing ten times the improvement? I mean, I don't know how we can measure that sort of thing; most of the specs posted for console hardware are just geeky tech-fap material, with no real benchmarking purpose. I understand the fundamentals of circuit design and can't begin to guess what a 1.8 tflop GPU is capable of, because GPUs have such a specific operational paramter (math for video output, basically). 1.8 tflops is lower end supercomputer CPU range, but no one is going to replace their beowulf clusters with GPU chips ripped from PS3 units, right? There's just no way to make a specific measurement for degree of improvement.
MGS4 NEWS.
Just image what two lesbians could do with two wireless devices....
http://users.coditel.net/COD11731/kill.wmv
It shows in video exactly what I showed in static frames. It doesn't prove wether or not it's a clipping or compositing error. The hair on the characters however, proves that this is a pre-rendered movie. I allredy know that it is for a fact after further researching tonight based on Ricks comments about the Axis CG shop in Glasgow helping Guerilla games with the movie.
Time will tell.
http://users.coditel.net/COD11731/teleport.wmv
is due to "lazy compositing" or "lazy animating".