In need of professional opinion
polycounter lvl 18
Hi guys. I'm not sure if this is exactly tact-full, posting this on these forums, but I really don't know many people in the industry personally, so I figured I'd post here asking for help. I hope this is okay. IF THIS IS NOT, PLEASE, WOULD A MODERATOR DELETE THIS THRED? and accept my apologies.
I got a job offer today from a company that will go nameless. it's a cool place though! and I'd love to work there. the offer is for 30,000 k a year Canadian (that's about 24,000 USD, I think) with no benefits. I also sign a contract for one year, with a 3 month probation period.
I must say, after being totally excited waiting for the offer, this is a little anti-climatic. E.A here in Canada will pay me 38,000 year, and quite frankly, I'm making a LOT more than 30,000 a year working at Liquid, already. in fact, I'm making a fair bit more than 30,000 a year in US dollars..
as far as signing the contract, this isn't about job security, obviously. it's so they can lock me into a wage and I can't go out and get a better job.
in my humble, uneducated opinion, I'd say this offer sucks. but I would REALLY love to hear you guy's opinion on how to deal with it. I'm going to talk to a few of my more business savoy relatives, but I'm thinking about writing them a polite email describing my point of view in very friendly manor, and saying that I wont work for less than 38.
what do you guys think?
I got a job offer today from a company that will go nameless. it's a cool place though! and I'd love to work there. the offer is for 30,000 k a year Canadian (that's about 24,000 USD, I think) with no benefits. I also sign a contract for one year, with a 3 month probation period.
I must say, after being totally excited waiting for the offer, this is a little anti-climatic. E.A here in Canada will pay me 38,000 year, and quite frankly, I'm making a LOT more than 30,000 a year working at Liquid, already. in fact, I'm making a fair bit more than 30,000 a year in US dollars..
as far as signing the contract, this isn't about job security, obviously. it's so they can lock me into a wage and I can't go out and get a better job.
in my humble, uneducated opinion, I'd say this offer sucks. but I would REALLY love to hear you guy's opinion on how to deal with it. I'm going to talk to a few of my more business savoy relatives, but I'm thinking about writing them a polite email describing my point of view in very friendly manor, and saying that I wont work for less than 38.
what do you guys think?
Replies
And that does sound quite low, by the way.
It is strange that this still happens in the industry. I've heard stories of people being offered 28 in one studio, then walking right down the street and getting 53 at the next studio, for what is essentially the exact same job. It seems that if the studio tends to hire lots of students, they are used to paying low wages, and tend to low ball everyone, including proven talented veterans. They also will tend to have more turnover as the younger people get some more experience and realize that they could be making a lot more money. Nevertheless, some of these companies do make some pretty cool games, even though things may seem to be in a constant state of flux.
I say this because it's way easier to get a new job whilst you already have one.
-R
Seriously, if they aren't offering you benefits, what's the difference between working for them and staying freelance except that you make more money now?
Be up front and professional about it. They know they arent the only studio around and if they want you, they'll up their offer if you ask.
And besides, your fucking nuts if you want to work for EA after all the horror stories flying around.
Let them know what it would take to hire you. Most companies will be willing to negotiate. Also if you want 38, ask for 42. This will give you some negotiation room and who knows you might get more than you originally wanted.
- BoBo
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with no benefits. I also sign a contract for one year, with a 3 month probation period
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it's so they can lock me into a wage and I can't go out and get a better job.
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Could you explain what's in the contract a bit more?
Probationary period is usually to delay the start of benefits... if you stick around long enough then they feel confident they won't be losing money on the benefit startup costs.
The 1 year time period, what's that about? I think it's illegal to prevent you from seeking other work if you leave the company, although I have heard of this stick being used. If they don't let you go, can you not work and still get the 1 year of paychecks? Non-compete clauses are usually only for the upper-echelons.
Definitely obtain a copy of the contract and say you'd like to have "your lawyer" go over it. This is standard. If they balk, then the job is not worth it. Consider their side of it... if you handed the company a contract to sign, they'd certainly have THEIR lawyers look it over, right? Damn right. So find a lawyer who knows interactive media, and spend the $100 for their read-thru. Totally worth it, IMHO.
Just try to avoid being cocky when you ask, keep it all very polite, like this kind of thing happens every day. The more experienced you seem, generally the more leveraging power you have.
OK, I'll shut up now.
http://www.gag.org/pegs/index.php
Good luck man!
Regardless, it sounds like a pretty crappy deal. They should at least beat your current salary by a decent amount.
At least thats what I figured out on what to do when asking for a pay. That way you can avoid the, "I do all the work and they get paid more than me." But to each their own way of figuring out this complicated task of getting a good job.
Go back and say that you'd feel a lot better about an offer in the range of blah to blah. Don't forget that a co. will always try and pay you the least amount that they can. Negotiation is a normal part of the hiring process and you should be able to do that comfortably. Don't sell yourself short. If they dont offer more, decline. That's my advice.
the general opinion of this thred is to negotiate for a higher wage. i'll do it for sure.
as far as the contract goes, the probationary period is left undefined. yes, come to think of it, surely i'd be able to leave and look for another job. it doesn't stipulate otherwise. the contract is acctualy fairly vauge. there's an additional paragraph that says they can collect use and disclose personal information of any employee. aside from that, the contract is pretty simple.
anyway, i wont reply to each individual post, cuz i figgure i'd just be repeating myself, but i certainly very much apprecieate every one of them. thanks alot guys.
i'm going to sit down and figgure out every single one of my expenses and compare offers. I should add that i'd love a job working in house, in a supportive artistic environment.. but that being said, if i organize my workflow with liquid development, i could feesibly make almost 50k Canadian.. that being said, working in house, not having to file my own tax, and working with others is certainly worth something to me, but..
anyway, it'll be a tricky decision. i'm going to see what they're willing to negotiate, but Liquid is starting to look really damn good.
the funny thing is, i'm not even exactly sure what to ask for.. how lowball exactly is that offer, relitive to the other employees, I'm not sure. i could tell them that it's possible to make around 50k at liquid and to offer me more, or i could say that working in house would be nice, and take a little bit less than that... or maybe i'm just being a stupid ass and i should take what i have and just organize myself to maximize what i can get with liquid.
The problem with that 3month probationary period is that if you need to move house and town to work there, it costs you a lot and at the end of that 3month the project could be canned ( or in my case, it never existed in the first place) and you would still lose out due to nothing you had done wrong.
Like everyone has said, push for enough for you to feel happier than where you are now or why leave where you are.
after talking to my buisness-owning uncle on the phone, i think i'm just going to write a friendly responce identifying that i make about 45 k working at liquid, and although i'd love to work at said company, i can't afford it.
thanks alot guys
edit:
pogonip- thanks for the reply. yah, it's a little strange, but what the hell. it's a good company, so i guess they're just low balling me to see what they can get away with. the real fun part will be to see how they respond to my email hehe
heh my first offer was 19k
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Whats frustrating is the people who would take this undercutting pay scales for all.
That US$24,000 is about UK£12000 ( I think around AUS$35k). Thats not much more than a factory wage in the UK. With Johns skill and experience (and depending on the location) he really wouldn't want to be working for less that $35,000.
Scott
i send the yesterday evening (thursday) and i haven't heard back from them today. ah well. i'm sure i'll hear back sooner or later.
Oxy- i totaly agree. the biggest shame about the whole employee abuse too many hours subject now a days is that if you dont like it, they'll find a kid who'll do it anyway. it's kinda upsetting. speaking of which, i wonder if that's what'll happen haha.
It wasn't about pride or always moving forward, because sometimes you have to take a step back to be able to move forward. If I could have afforded it, I would have taken it. However it would have been my first "industry artist gig" so I am a little hungrier than others already in the industry. I am kind of lucky that I have a good job I like that treats me well.
If it comes down to a matter only your pride and you are offended that they offer you less. Ask yourself if it will pay off later and make you happy, swallow your pride and take it. Personally I would rather scrape by doing something I like rather than make more money doing something I hate. Sure money makes you feel better but if you have to do things you dont like to make it, wouldnt you rather spend that time doing something you like?
If its not going to pan out to something better or be something you like doing or you can't afford to take it then don't.
Also keep in mind that the industry is starting to become flooded with talent trying to get in. This leaves little room for negotiations, just something to keep in mind.
Also keep in mind that the industry is starting to become flooded with talent trying to get in. This leaves little room for negotiations, just something to keep in mind.
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Just my opinion, but there's always room for negotiation. A lot of the talent trying to get in the industry isn't really all the talented, so someone with skills and experience is still valued. Plus, negotiations show that you have some respect for yourself and confidence in your ability. Some companies will value this in an employee, and some companies will want kids who will take whatever they offer. Try to work for the former, you'll be much happier.
secondly
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heh my first offer was 19k
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Whats frustrating is the people who would take this undercutting pay scales for all.
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if im really honest as long as i can pay rent for whereever it is I end up and can generally live,id work for that.....simply becuase I am a kid and ive not yet broke into the industry. so my current mindset is "ill take anything in exchange for exsperience and a little note on my CV (resume)" proberly why so many people take those offers.
john
EDIT:- of course another big factor is my parents are still willing to support me on my endevours in life,kinda makes life much easyier.
But you know what im getting at,a kid in my position,would accept any kind of deal to get into the indutsry.no matter how good or bad it is from a proffesional point of view.
john
Always work on improving your art, and know that you are worth something. Do not grab the very first malnourished carrot that some company dangles in front of you, or you might well find yourself stuck working on craptastic games, with huge mandatory overtime and very little pay.
You do NOT want to be there. If all the wannabe games artists didn't jump at the chance to wade through a meat grinder at minumum wage, companies would realise they couldn't get away with that kind of behaviour.
About £18-20k would be a worthy starting salary for a junior artist over here, I think.
In the US, $19k works out at under £10k ... which is just silly. You can't really be expected to live too well on that...
yah, Bronco, i'd agree with MoP. i understand the frustration in getting your first job (haha belive me) but unless you're in a bad situation, i'd try not to undercut the market. if there's any reason E.A can overwork it's employes, it's because there's a guy who's clawing at the door trying to get into the wonderful magical industry that is game development. do you guys remember the thred of a while ago, when a polycounter who will remain namless was talking about how he'd reached the top of this industry, and didn't feel like there was anything left to do? he got one responce to the end of "how dare you talk about the industry like that, you spoiled little bitch"
anyway, (edit! i forgot i wasn't saying their name hah) got back to me just now. they're offering 37.5 and can't go higher, cuz that's kinda the cap they pay to their starting employee's.
if i can make 45k at liquid, minus a little bit of money for bad organization here and there, minus not being able to work with anyone, minus not being in a work enviornment, minus getting cabin feever staying at home, minus having to wory about invoice mistakes, minus not having my work approved in time to invoice.. and minus not keeping a rutine lifestyle i might enjoy.... and minus not having an in house position on my resume..
does that work out to 37.5? yahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
edit: you know, somewhere around not having enough money, i forgot that i really don't acctualy care about money. jesus, it's only my first year. 37.5 is quite a decent enough wage to live on in van. I'm seriously leening towards taking it. i'll phone them after lunch i think and accept the offer.