I can't abide cliche. Just a few moments ago, I abandoned the Van Helsing movie on PPV with 40 minutes left because the entire goddamn movie has been cribbed from other sources. Even if you don't succeed at being original, you still ought to fucking try a little bit.
I'm not sure this mini-rant is actually relevant, but I just wasted $3.95 and am wroth!
Borrowed Van Helsing AND League of Extraordinary Gentlemen at the same time - they raided just about every film school text book (well, all the old shite ones anyway). Sux that U paid 4 it.
I don't appreciate the logic that anyone who is starving is a moron. Where the hell does that nugget come from?
Cuz marketing your skills is a skill in itself. there are enough artists (not just game artists) who are glorified button pushers who don't starve.
I can teach my baby cousins to do enough of my job to 'get' a job.
My rant came from talking to a classroom full of intimidated art students who were tryna convince me they coudnt make it cuz of talent and shit. That's just pure ignorance. I'm by no means a ror, ben or bobo, but I have AAA's on my resume. Perception is everything.
If you thought the LXG movie was cribbed, you should look at the source material. Alan Moore almost never creates his own settings and characters, but it's what he does with them that breaks new ground and shatters all the cliches.
You want to see cribbed? Get the League of Ex. Gentlemen Volume 2, and check the travelouge in the back. Ouch.
"I can teach my baby cousins to do enough of my job to 'get' a job."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Fuck off! You're kidding right? Ah, why don't you just knock on all of our doors and bitch slap us in the face? You're telling me that the last 6 years of my life were wasted? That monkeys could take over my job? You mean all I do is press buttons? Wow, I feel sorry for the sods that are paying all of us. I'm sure monekys work for much much less.
"AAA" titles don't make the artist. Some people just happen across a good project at the right time and sort of associate themselves with it. Doesn't mean they are worth much alone. It is the combined talent that makes it work. I'd like to see if you could survive on a solo project. I wonder if your talent is strong enough to make a buck, on your own. Hell, try it. Then I'd like to see what you say about the "cliched" starving artist. Some great artists out there just dont have the skills to sell themselves. Or maybe, just maybe they dont choose to sell out. They aren't creating "real" art for money, they are doing it for the sake of creating something expressive and meaningful to themselves or their circle of friends. Whatever. I do it it because I enjoy it, and hey, if you want to pay me, awesome.
"...I have AAA's on my resume. Perception is everything."
A little hot on yourself eh? I've heard that masterbating causes blindness.
I've known people who worked on Deer Hunter, which is the crap of the industry, who were better artists then guys/gals I've met at AAA companies. I've seen guys from all over the industry, and the movie industry even, who couldn't stand for shit on their own...not just when it came to games, but with basic art in general. So, wow, they sold someone enough to get hired. Doesn't mean they are fucking qualified for the job.
So anyway, your post drudges up alot of stuff, and they all sort of branch out in their own directions. Self worth, Cliches in life, cliches in your work, Success and Accomplishment. Artist or CONartist? We gonna try to reign this in at all or is it gonna stay all over the place?
Those students should be intimidated. The world is hard on you. Its competitive out there. There are alot of people who flail about claiming to be artists who claw their way into the spotlight, while true artists get over shadowed. Its the nature of the beast. Some people are just better at selling themselves.
So, in closing, thank you Pak, thank you for literally throwing your "words of wisdom" at a bunch of students. Thanks for continuing the cycle that probably landed you a job. Your attitude, and others that share it, are part of the problem.
Your line of thinking is the reason that movies like League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and Van Helsing exist. Someone sold themselves, sold a project, and those horrible movies were made.
My only possible disagreement, is that I believe anyone who is a hard worker and a quick learner, can find themselves a job they both enjoy and are good at, and get paid enough to survive. The key is the hard work and the ability to produce quality.
ou're telling me that the last 6 years of my life were wasted? That monkeys could take over my job?
[/ QUOTE ]
uhh, no, my point was being intimidated cuz yer not as talented as the next guy is shooting yourself in the foot. marketing your abilities is a skill. That was my point....and it was a rather clear one.
[ QUOTE ]
who were better artists then guys/gals I've met at AAA companies.
[/ QUOTE ]
My whole point right there
[ QUOTE ]
I believe anyone who is a hard worker and a quick learner, can find themselves a job they both enjoy and are good at
[/ QUOTE ] again, my topic sentence inna nutshell.
[ QUOTE ]
A little hot on yourself eh?
[/ QUOTE ]
accually i was downplaying my resume to state the exact opposite of whatever it was you interpurated.
Man what is with you rog? I wasn't saying your 6 years was wasted and that any monkey can do what YOU do. i wasn't saying that 'at all'. The whole point was how important it was for them to learn howto market their skills and chill out about the talent stuff cuz it's a lil over-hyped.
Am I wrong about that? I don't think so as both of my critics who bothered to specify only said exactly what I did in different words and somehow decided to mock me for it.
Alright, I think I'm going to have to defend Pak here.
I've got two shipped titles on my resume, and I've basically got zero artistic satisfaction from working on them. And while I get to concept, model, texture, and animate my own stuff, it's all being monitered by an art director, producer, etc, who are constantly asking for revisions. So it's an iterative process, and something that irritates a lot of artists because they get so attached to their initial work. I've learned to detach myself from whatever I do. It's a job, and a pretty decent one at that. I just home and work on whatever I feel like working on. Finish it and put it away; maybe frame and give it to a friend. That's where I get my artistic satisfaction.
Then there's the "button pushing" or technical side of making game art. It takes a degree of technical know-how to get art into a game engine, and engines are only going to get more complex with next gen platforms. So that's why it's a brilliant idea for large companies, like EA, to set up a cirriculum at art colleges and universities to train younger guys how to use their tools. They can find out who is technical or not, and bring them on board as a useful, productive employee. In my experience, technical artists have greater staying power at a company because of their ability to get work done, regardless of their talent level. I think that is what Pak is getting at. There are always exceptions, but super artistic talents don't always equal great game artists.
So selling yourself as a confident artist who can do art and get it into the engine on time will go a lot farther than randomly posting pieces of brilliant art on forums. Being a technical artist and being able to "talk shop" is a very marketable skill that pays well. Van Helsing may have been crap, but I'm sure the "button pushers" that worked on that movie and any other shitty movie were just happy to do their job and earn a paycheck, and put that title on their resume so they could get more work.
I'm sorry if my attitude and Pak's seems to support the manufacture of crap art. Being idealistic about the whole state of the film and games industry will only make you an angry, bitter person. I've learned to move on.
The term 'Starving Artist' comes from painting, anyway. The painters who were so out in front that nobody would buy their stuff, at least not enough for them to live on. Like Van Gogh, the classic example. It's a cliche, yes, but it describes the condition of working on your art for its own sake, despite the fact that it's not making you a living. The big thinker who gets no respect, the avant-garde genius who's late on his rent has to borrow beer money.
Which has nothing to do with game art, which is strictly a commercial art field. No resemblance to topics being argued this thread. Bollocks, yeah.
I didnt mean to come off the way it did I guess. I was a lil frustrated to see kids having the same self-defeating bullshit pumped into them that i had when i was starting out.
I guess the word moron got me in trouble.
Sorry.
The kids came out motivated cuz I pulled the carpet from under that theory and I had a few come up to me afterwards all excited and stuff....which was the whole point, and it worked.
I dunno why i catch as much flak as i do. I'm not all that offensive, man. Can't a guy vent?
Isn't this thread a cliche among digital art forums? Especially this one? Hasn't this topic been torn apart a zillion times over since the conception of this forum? But still I respond. Ugh.
Oh well Pak, it IS the net you know. How long have you been using it? Opinions get torn down everyday here by people who wouldn't normally voice them in person. Like me.
oXY, why should I give up when I get work with great people and make a good living at it? I've already found the balance: solve the technical problems at work and work on the artistic problems at home.
you're a monkey I'm a monkey the people that are coming out of school right now are monkeys. who cares? do you want to die as a pixel pushing monkey? if not then stfu and do whatever you think will make ur life worth living.
I dunno why you even bother MoP when most people around here can't get the difference between your and you're. Surely that's a much more heinous crime? Speaking of which, I HATE it when women online dating say 'looking for my partner in crime'. How's that for a horrible cliche?!
according to the dictionary of cliches by james rogers... a cliche is an overworked and therefore banal expression... in contrast, cliches can serve as the lubricant of language, summing up a point or adding a seasoning of humor to a discourse...cliches will eventually burn out... go away.. look at pop music.. but they are forever burned into your subconscious.. and in 5 or 10 years they will arise like lazarus from the pit of cliche and become retro and hip.."a blast from the past" or simply a vessel that can transport you to a different point in time..just because you are "over" something dosent mean everyone else is.. i hate pretention way more than any cliche...
ooh ooh ooh...I wanna get in late, like I usually do...does that make me a cliche? I do agree that this thread really should die...but I've gotten kind of tired of the "if you can draw/use photoshop/illus./whatever than you'll never go hungry." cliche...I may not be starving but ramen noodles are getting pretty damn old. Anyway, sorry to keep a dying moose alive but here it goes...
I would like to say it's unfair to criticize someone as a moron for not being able to immediatly find their dream job just because you did. It really seems to be more about situation and timing, and the all important "who you know." I had a pretty good slap in the face the other day because one of my girlfriends old friends called up to tell her that she was dating a guy that worked at a game company (she knows I'm looking for such a job") who didn't go to any school at all (I've been to both an art school and then later a tech oriented school) and wasn't really all that into art, he just thought it would be something cool to do. That doesn't make him a bad guy, but it certainly chaps my ass...I feel like I try as hard as I can every day to achieve my goal of creating artwork for a living, and most of the time I feel like it's getting farther away rather than closer.
Replies
I'm not sure this mini-rant is actually relevant, but I just wasted $3.95 and am wroth!
I don't appreciate the logic that anyone who is starving is a moron. Where the hell does that nugget come from?
Cuz marketing your skills is a skill in itself. there are enough artists (not just game artists) who are glorified button pushers who don't starve.
I can teach my baby cousins to do enough of my job to 'get' a job.
My rant came from talking to a classroom full of intimidated art students who were tryna convince me they coudnt make it cuz of talent and shit. That's just pure ignorance. I'm by no means a ror, ben or bobo, but I have AAA's on my resume. Perception is everything.
-R
You want to see cribbed? Get the League of Ex. Gentlemen Volume 2, and check the travelouge in the back. Ouch.
/jzero
"I can teach my baby cousins to do enough of my job to 'get' a job."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Fuck off! You're kidding right? Ah, why don't you just knock on all of our doors and bitch slap us in the face? You're telling me that the last 6 years of my life were wasted? That monkeys could take over my job? You mean all I do is press buttons? Wow, I feel sorry for the sods that are paying all of us. I'm sure monekys work for much much less.
"AAA" titles don't make the artist. Some people just happen across a good project at the right time and sort of associate themselves with it. Doesn't mean they are worth much alone. It is the combined talent that makes it work. I'd like to see if you could survive on a solo project. I wonder if your talent is strong enough to make a buck, on your own. Hell, try it. Then I'd like to see what you say about the "cliched" starving artist. Some great artists out there just dont have the skills to sell themselves. Or maybe, just maybe they dont choose to sell out. They aren't creating "real" art for money, they are doing it for the sake of creating something expressive and meaningful to themselves or their circle of friends. Whatever. I do it it because I enjoy it, and hey, if you want to pay me, awesome.
"...I have AAA's on my resume. Perception is everything."
A little hot on yourself eh? I've heard that masterbating causes blindness.
I've known people who worked on Deer Hunter, which is the crap of the industry, who were better artists then guys/gals I've met at AAA companies. I've seen guys from all over the industry, and the movie industry even, who couldn't stand for shit on their own...not just when it came to games, but with basic art in general. So, wow, they sold someone enough to get hired. Doesn't mean they are fucking qualified for the job.
So anyway, your post drudges up alot of stuff, and they all sort of branch out in their own directions. Self worth, Cliches in life, cliches in your work, Success and Accomplishment. Artist or CONartist? We gonna try to reign this in at all or is it gonna stay all over the place?
Those students should be intimidated. The world is hard on you. Its competitive out there. There are alot of people who flail about claiming to be artists who claw their way into the spotlight, while true artists get over shadowed. Its the nature of the beast. Some people are just better at selling themselves.
So, in closing, thank you Pak, thank you for literally throwing your "words of wisdom" at a bunch of students. Thanks for continuing the cycle that probably landed you a job. Your attitude, and others that share it, are part of the problem.
Your line of thinking is the reason that movies like League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and Van Helsing exist. Someone sold themselves, sold a project, and those horrible movies were made.
Fucking monkeys.
And yeah, what mrrogers said, pretty much.
My only possible disagreement, is that I believe anyone who is a hard worker and a quick learner, can find themselves a job they both enjoy and are good at, and get paid enough to survive. The key is the hard work and the ability to produce quality.
Ur part of the problem ..
b1ll
ou're telling me that the last 6 years of my life were wasted? That monkeys could take over my job?
[/ QUOTE ]
uhh, no, my point was being intimidated cuz yer not as talented as the next guy is shooting yourself in the foot. marketing your abilities is a skill. That was my point....and it was a rather clear one.
[ QUOTE ]
who were better artists then guys/gals I've met at AAA companies.
[/ QUOTE ]
My whole point right there
[ QUOTE ]
I believe anyone who is a hard worker and a quick learner, can find themselves a job they both enjoy and are good at
[/ QUOTE ] again, my topic sentence inna nutshell.
[ QUOTE ]
A little hot on yourself eh?
[/ QUOTE ]
accually i was downplaying my resume to state the exact opposite of whatever it was you interpurated.
Man what is with you rog? I wasn't saying your 6 years was wasted and that any monkey can do what YOU do. i wasn't saying that 'at all'. The whole point was how important it was for them to learn howto market their skills and chill out about the talent stuff cuz it's a lil over-hyped.
Am I wrong about that? I don't think so as both of my critics who bothered to specify only said exactly what I did in different words and somehow decided to mock me for it.
*sheesh*
-R
CAPSLOCK IS STUCK.
"Starving" is usually more linked to situation and circumstances, and has next to nothing to do with "moron".
So, your topic sentence, in a nutshell, is bollocks.
I've got two shipped titles on my resume, and I've basically got zero artistic satisfaction from working on them. And while I get to concept, model, texture, and animate my own stuff, it's all being monitered by an art director, producer, etc, who are constantly asking for revisions. So it's an iterative process, and something that irritates a lot of artists because they get so attached to their initial work. I've learned to detach myself from whatever I do. It's a job, and a pretty decent one at that. I just home and work on whatever I feel like working on. Finish it and put it away; maybe frame and give it to a friend. That's where I get my artistic satisfaction.
Then there's the "button pushing" or technical side of making game art. It takes a degree of technical know-how to get art into a game engine, and engines are only going to get more complex with next gen platforms. So that's why it's a brilliant idea for large companies, like EA, to set up a cirriculum at art colleges and universities to train younger guys how to use their tools. They can find out who is technical or not, and bring them on board as a useful, productive employee. In my experience, technical artists have greater staying power at a company because of their ability to get work done, regardless of their talent level. I think that is what Pak is getting at. There are always exceptions, but super artistic talents don't always equal great game artists.
So selling yourself as a confident artist who can do art and get it into the engine on time will go a lot farther than randomly posting pieces of brilliant art on forums. Being a technical artist and being able to "talk shop" is a very marketable skill that pays well. Van Helsing may have been crap, but I'm sure the "button pushers" that worked on that movie and any other shitty movie were just happy to do their job and earn a paycheck, and put that title on their resume so they could get more work.
I'm sorry if my attitude and Pak's seems to support the manufacture of crap art. Being idealistic about the whole state of the film and games industry will only make you an angry, bitter person. I've learned to move on.
Which has nothing to do with game art, which is strictly a commercial art field. No resemblance to topics being argued this thread. Bollocks, yeah.
/jzero
I've learned to move on.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or give up. It's the same thing and easier than trying to find a balance.
EA SLAVE MONKEY!
I WIN!
ALALALALLALA!
I guess the word moron got me in trouble.
Sorry.
The kids came out motivated cuz I pulled the carpet from under that theory and I had a few come up to me afterwards all excited and stuff....which was the whole point, and it worked.
I dunno why i catch as much flak as i do. I'm not all that offensive, man. Can't a guy vent?
-R
Yawn.
It's been working out pretty well.
you're a monkey I'm a monkey the people that are coming out of school right now are monkeys. who cares? do you want to die as a pixel pushing monkey? if not then stfu and do whatever you think will make ur life worth living.
And why can't the WHITE GUY be the sidekick that gets killed?
(just thought I would add to the erratic nature of this topic, PaK articulate your point better next time plz? (kthxbye)
"Staying in shape when the heat is on isn't easy - ask any chocolate teapot! So here is some practical help on how to live for Jesus at school."
I would like to say it's unfair to criticize someone as a moron for not being able to immediatly find their dream job just because you did. It really seems to be more about situation and timing, and the all important "who you know." I had a pretty good slap in the face the other day because one of my girlfriends old friends called up to tell her that she was dating a guy that worked at a game company (she knows I'm looking for such a job") who didn't go to any school at all (I've been to both an art school and then later a tech oriented school) and wasn't really all that into art, he just thought it would be something cool to do. That doesn't make him a bad guy, but it certainly chaps my ass...I feel like I try as hard as I can every day to achieve my goal of creating artwork for a living, and most of the time I feel like it's getting farther away rather than closer.
peas
James Ball