The current top two headline stories at CNN.com
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Nuclear North Korea
Nuclear Iran
World peace was just so 90s, I guess. On a related note, does anyone know what happened to SlamminBeers?
Nuclear Iran
World peace was just so 90s, I guess. On a related note, does anyone know what happened to SlamminBeers?
Replies
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4252481.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4252019.stm
Anyway, everyone already knew that North Korea had nukes. They are just saber rattling, as they often do. Their leader is insane, so they will do all sorts of extreme things until he is gone. Hopefully things will go much better for North Korea once they get better leadership. The people of North Korea are suffering horribly under their current government.
North Korea sells weapons to support their economy, and they got nukes.
You still don't see a problem here?
if we have to fight any of these two the draft is a certainty
The U.S. adopting a "pre-emptive strike" policy was a gigantic mistake, which will lead to lots of problems for quite a while.
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Quoted for emphasis. Since before the Iraqi war (when the rumblings first began) I personally didn't believe that invading Iraq was the ideal response to September 11th. Removing Saddam from power was great, but I'm afraid that the latent effects of stirring up shit in the Middle East will be felt for a long while.
if we have to fight any of these two the draft is a certainty
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Hopefully Blair won't feel the need to get the UK involved this time..:/
The problem is they're both fucked up enuff to USE their nuclear weapons.
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Iran supports terrorism and religous zeal, and they got nukes.
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what sucks is of the 3 axis of evil countries we decided to invade,we chose the one with no nukes.
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Sal, NoSeRider, JO420: Do you guys have some top secret info I'm not aware of? AFAIK the "problem" with Iran is they refuse to stop their nuclear uranium enrichment program at this stage. If they even have the technology to build their own nuclear weapons, I see no evidence they actually have done that.
If Bush started up another war on Iran, citing the same reasons as Iraq (OMG THEY HAVE WEAPONS), I think at this point the results would be the same... a year of fighting and killing to discover that, whoops, they don't actually have any nuclear weapons yet!
NoSeRider: I like how you said Iran supports "religious zeal" ... ever looked at the USA recently?
I also think RageUnleashed is right, in any country with nuclear weapons there's always the danger of some nutcase getting their hands on the control pad for 'em.
What we really need is some neutral party (aliens from space, preferably) who can assess the world situation without bias, and decide who should and should not have nuclear weapons (their decision would be - NOBODY SHOULD HAVE THEM!)... not the countries themselves, with ridiculous biases and power to back them up.
Meh. Depressing stuff.
NoSeRider: I like how you said Iran supports "religious zeal" ... ever looked at the USA recently?
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Yeah, but I haven't seen Christians, Mormons and jehovah witnesses blowing themselves up recently.
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/1915/
"If they even have the technology to build their own nuclear weapons, I see no evidence they actually have done that."
Well, Mop, maybe that is because you aren't privy to the shit flowing through the pentagon. :P
"If Bush started up another war on Iran, citing the same reasons as Iraq (OMG THEY HAVE WEAPONS), I think at this point the results would be the same... a year of fighting and killing to discover that, whoops, they don't actually have any nuclear weapons yet!" Well, considering the fact that Saddam said, "We don't have no friggin nukes. And fuck you for trying to come in and peek." Iran says they aren't producing them (but they could if they tried really really hard) So I believe them. Yeah.....I....believe....them.
Of course, North korea is out there yelling, we have nukes, we have nukes. And we just wave at them. Oh hey, look, its those funny North Koreans again. Silly North Koreans always yelling about hating America and talking about strength and stuff. Afterall, Kim Jong Il is "just roenry." Of course, I worked on a title where Koreans were the enemy so I'll probably be the first to die by some NK assassin's blade for speaking lies about their Great Land.
It IS funny how people speculate based off what they are fed by the media, let alone the American media. I mean, after all, if the world hates us, they (the world) have to be wrong, right? And since I am truly a follower of those who lead by example here in these Great 50 states, I say, "Quick! Strike before we are struck! BURN THEM ALL TO HELL!"
Man, I woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Thanks Pak!
Nose: Modern western Christians don't need to blow themselves up because they have cruise missiles. Less well-equipped soldiers need to be more creative to achieve a similar body count. Our Christians also haven't been on the receiving end of air strikes and massacres since the end of George I's reign, and feel they have more to lose than someone who, odds are, personally knows several people killed by the enemy.
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Actually it comes more down to a question of what is considered moral and immoral in their respective societies.
One society considers suicide to be a sin. One does not.
One society considers killing innocent people a sin, one apparently does not. Now I know that some will say, oh, look at all the innocent Iraqis killed in the war by our missiles, etc. I would think that majority of Americans would not wish for that to happen, and in no case that anyone here is aware of, did a U.S commander say "oh let's target some innocents to send a message". On the otherhand, the terrorists have clearly targeted innocent people.
In my opinion, a religous fanatic can be loosely defined by someone who believes that his time here on earth is unimportant compared to the "afterlife". Now you can surely describe ALOT of Christians to think that way....however....the percentage of them who are willing to throw away their actual lives to get there is very slim in comparison to that "other society" in the ME.
That my friends, is why a region, that is unstable because of religious diffences, unstable because of an archaic society that has evolved very little in 3000 years, and unstable because an enormous amount of money flows through it, is NOT a good place for nuclear weapons to be proliferating.
Now, if I was one of the other countries of the so called axis, I'd be thinking "Crap, we're next!"
Since the US is obviously going to attack a country without nukes, what do they have to lose by arming up? Maybe it'll be a bit of a deterrent at least.
These guys really started panicking and pushing for the weapons development after Bush's inflamatory comments. I'm sure that they had some kind of program going on before, but with the additional threats by the current US administration, they're scared sh!tless, and have really picked up the pace.
With regards to the suicidal whack jobs, they are an extreme minority. They are to Islam what the Columbine shooters are to normal high school student.
Just as in Christianity, Muslims are not supposed to kill. It is a sin. The actions that are being perpetrated by various extremist groups are political actions. Of course the leaders of these groups try to justify these actions religiously, because if one of these devout Muslim foot soldiers actually knew that he was breaking the rules of Islam to blow himself up for a political reason, there would never be any suicide bombings. But people are sheep, and the politically motivated directors of these operations are just tending a very scared, frustrated, and gullible herd. They know this, and use it to their advantage for political gain.
All of this garbage is just paranoid delusionals reacting to paranoid delusionals, and Bush, and Rice are taking thier comments to far. They lack the tolerance and understanding of other contries rights to protect themselves.
It's just funny how many people I know that own firearms, yet have them only for defense, and would'nt hurt a fly other wise. You don't see me or thier neighbors threatening them for owning defensive items. Sadam and this war in Iraq have nothing to do with 9/11. He's just a hick, trying to impress his dad. I've almost lost all respect for the United States populous also. If this gets any worse, and we don't impeech him. I'm moving to canada, and I'm not kidding.
Actaully once it is decreed through religious prophets, Muslims can kill...so basically with official permission or through Jihad it's allowed. As a _last_ resort when trying to convert others, when all attempts have ultimately failed, Muslims can kill.
I've almost lost all respect for the United States populous also. If this gets any worse, and we don't impeech him. I'm moving to canada, and I'm not kidding.
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This line of thinking is very arrogant as well as defeatist.
You lose respect for people because they don't see things as you do, in essence, declaring your superiority and greater intellect.
"I am right, you are wrong, and now I'm going to pick up my ball and go home".
But if you really, feel that way, don't let the door hit ya were the good lord split ya
Actaully once it is decreed through religious prophets, Muslims can kill...so basically with official permission or through Jihad it's allowed. As a _last_ resort when trying to convert others, when all attempts have ultimately failed, Muslims can kill.
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Well, I didn't think that needed to be said. It's pretty much universally accepted that in cases of self defense, it is acceptable to kill. As you point out, for for a Muslim, this is a last resort. It is too bad that this isn't true for some of our "Christian" leaders.
This country doesn't need people who concede defeat just because they lost a battle.
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Yes, be triumphant even when it makes no sense to do so! Carry on fighting when it makes no sense to do that either! America needs more people who will selflessly throw themselves in the firing line because someone said it was their god-given duty to do it!
Your country doesn't need people who just don't know when to stop... in fact, no country does. Sadly, these people exist. Ah well.
what sucks is of the 3 axis of evil countries we decided to invade,we chose the one with no nukes.
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Am I the only one who read that and thought that actually we're pretty lucky we invaded a country that didnt have any nukes?
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This country doesn't need people who concede defeat just because they lost a battle.
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Yes, be triumphant even when it makes no sense to do so! Carry on fighting when it makes no sense to do that either! America needs more people who will selflessly throw themselves in the firing line because someone said it was their god-given duty to do it!
Your country doesn't need people who just don't know when to stop... in fact, no country does. Sadly, these people exist. Ah well.
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That really wasn't my point
Of course people need to admit their mistakes, or have some common sense when it comes to the distance they take their measures.
But all of that can still be accomplished while having a good deal of resolve as well.
This whole "Bush won, I'm moving to Canada" mantra, well...I've said enough.
What, no comments on my article? I thought it was pretty good, and fit well in this discussion. Bill Moyers wrote it. Here it is again:
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/1915/
As for moving to Canada (or elsewhere), I've given it serious thought. I don't consider it quitter's mentality, so much as pessimistic/disgusted/helpless mentality. For now I'm staying, but I hardly feel like I'm staying to 'fight'. I give money, do the occaisional march, vote, and try to talk my version of sense into people. What more can I do? I just feel like by staying here and paying taxes I'm contributing to the badness that has become the US of A. And I don't see things getting any better, honestly, I think they're just going to get much, much worse. I think deriding people for wanting to leave only points to one's lack of empathy. Please understand it's not about 'Bush won and I lost'; it goes much, much deeper than that. Something like, "Hey- you know what? This country is really starting to SUCK."
i'd be more afraid of iran than the norkors. the DPRK's technology is strictly 1960s from what i've read. all those patriots, F-15s, F-16s, B-2s and stuff should whup their collective butts easily.
You raise a very good point about wanting to leave the USA - I originally wanted to go and seek work in the USA but these days I have been considering Canada as a much more serious possibility, purely because it seems like a generally more stable and safe place to live. And as you say (for US citizens) wanting to move out of the country, it's not a case of "Bush won and I lost" ... which is what a lot of pro-Bush people seem to think. PEOPLE WHO "DESERT" THE US ARE COWARDS! ¬_¬
I'd rather move to New Zealand. Who wants to live in bible belt white America where the Christians hate Hitler, but feel he did a great job of killing the Jewish people? America where everyone celebrates Martin Luther King Jr. day, even tho they don't want to. America where more people would rather watch the Superbowl commercials, than the Presidential Debates. America is a huge giant wussy that needs to change its attitude. If it takes a nuke to shut us up, oh well. Who are we to keep under-developed countries on a tight leash? Just look at the hell we're putting Africa through.
That's all I have to add to this thread.
*grabs the popcorn*
i'd be more afraid of iran than the norkors. the DPRK's technology is strictly 1960s from what i've read. all those patriots, F-15s, F-16s, B-2s and stuff should whup their collective butts easily.
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I wouldn't be too sure of that. A couple of years ago they lobbed a missile directly over Japan, heading southeast, before dropping it in the Pacific. When the distance was measured, it had enough range to strike most of the west coast of the US. And they did it to make a point, which is "Don't mess with us. We are not afraid of you, and can hit you where it hurts." "Oh, and now we've got nukes too."
Seriously, their rulers are absolutely beligerent, cocky, arrogant, and friggin nuts. If they felt threatened, they'd nuke Japan in a heartbeat, as they have no love for the now American-loving Japanese.
In my opinion, they are a much bigger threat than Iran. Iran just wants to be left alone, and are justifiably afraid of the US after our meddling with the Shaw, our arming of Saddam Hussein so that he could go to war with them, then our recent invasion of Iraq.
Iran just wants us out of their backyard. North Korea has a chip on its shoulders however, and I'd say they just might be crazy enough to take a shot at us if they thought they had a chance.
I wouldn't be too sure of that. A couple of years ago they lobbed a missile directly over Japan, heading southeast, before dropping it in the Pacific. When the distance was measured, it had enough range to strike most of the west coast of the US.
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That's not quite right. The weapon fired over Japan was a No Dong missile, with a service range of about 1300km. That wouldn't even hit Hawaii. They have another delivery weapon in their arsenal called the Taepo Dong-2, which is a mult-stage vehicle and is believed to have an effective range of about 4000km. I say believed because the DPRK has never conducted a test flight that anyone else has seen, but that's still not far enough to hit the US mainland. There is some speculation that a lightweight version of the weapon could travel as far as 10000km, but I believe that's sans warhead payload.
Anyway, it's definitely not certain that North Korea would deliver a nuclear weapon into the US even if it is possible. In the event of war, they'd be much more likely to attack Seoul or Tokyo in an attempt to critically destabilize world markets and hurt the US that way (and wouldn't it be a bitch for Japan, to be the only nation ever nuked and then be hit again 60 years later). Seeing as how DPRK is a nation of starving communist shut-ins, a global economic crisis doesn't hurt them and is a more reliable attack than a long-range exchange with America that might just as likely fall short and impact harmlessly in the Pacific. Also, irradiating Seoul would make a land assault into the north that much harder for US/SK forces. Nuking Los Angeles doesn't offer any tactical benefit; more likely it ensures a nuclear exchange that North Korea can't possibly survive.
As an interesting side note, does everyone know to which nation North Korea has 'covertly' sold No Dong missile technology and parts to over the last five or six years?
Tne answer, of course, is Iran.
Nevertheless, I stand by my statement that the leadership of North Korea is much nuttier than that of that of Iran.
Seriously, their rulers are absolutely beligerent, cocky, arrogant, and friggin nuts...
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Hey! That sounds like OUR leader!!!
Actually it comes more down to a question of what is considered moral and immoral in their respective societies.
One society considers suicide to be a sin. One does not.
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*sigh* Here we go with the "morals." The Qur'an forbids killing and suicide.
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[Surah 2:195] And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to your destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good.
[Surah 4:29] O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful!
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Feel free to continue making broad, uninformed generalizations though; it's your god-given right as a moron.
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Yeah, but I haven't seen Christians, Mormons and jehovah witnesses blowing themselves up recently.
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no, christian fundamentalists have been the single most powerful voting block in the usa that supports the administration that has a history to institutionalize:
terrorism, religous zeal, the sale of weapons to support their economy...
and they got nukes.
There is no significant difference. Lots of non-westerners die at the ultimate works of western religious fundamentalism. If it's all about death and terror. Then American soldiers and The Hamas are both terrorists or both heros, cuz they're all being manipulated with the same religious and nationalism.
Iran and North Korea are no angelic nations, but let's not pretend like their playing a different game....cuz they're not.
An american's borther dies on 9/11 and he jusifiably enlists to fight for his brothers (and countries) by shooting and blowing up people in a preemptive strike. he dies in Iraq a hero.
A moderate muslim father see's his kid blown to pieces in lebanon in the 80's and plans with Bin Bin to strike a crippling blow to the organization/system that shelled his home, and for some reason he dies a villan?
Same thing man.
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[Surah 4:29] O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful!
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Feel free to continue making broad, uninformed generalizations though; it's your god-given right as a moron.
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Maybe you should read this to the people blowing themselves up in the ME and taking out thousands of innocent people?
I wonder if Bin Laden ever read the Koran?
But feel free to call me names. Do you do that type of thing in person, or does the anonyminity of a message remove your sense of civility?
And I don't believe me preaching the Qur'an to suicide bombers would be any more effective than me preaching the Bible to hate-mongering Christians who use their "faith" as a means to persecute gays. People selectively choose passages, and often take them out of context, in order to influence and manipulate the people around them; there's nothing I can do to stop this.
Your rhetorical question wondering if Bin Laden has ever read the Qur'an got me thinking about a similar question: I wonder if George W. Bush has ever read the Bible? I know he's religious, and a church-going man, but I wonder if he's ever truly read the Bible and scrutinized the meaning of its passages.
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050221&s=allen
my, how times have changed.
The Founding Fathers were not religious men, and they fought hard to erect, in Thomas Jefferson's words, "a wall of separation between church and state." John Adams opined that if they were not restrained by legal measures, Puritans--the fundamentalists of their day--would "whip and crop, and pillory and roast."
"A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law" -Benjamin Franklin
Your rhetorical question wondering if Bin Laden has ever read the Qu'ran got me thinking about a similar question: I wonder if George W. Bush has ever read the Bible? I know he's religious, and a church-going man, but I wonder if he's ever truly read the Bible and scrutinized the meaning of its passages.
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Actually, Bush is not a member of a church congregation nor does he attend church regularly. His devout Christianity along with his image as a "rancher" is a portrait that has been neatly painted up for the mass populace by the Republican party.
-R
So....now that you know this...
Ror got me halfway there with that image, but that's some funny right here, folks!