60 Minutes poopoo'd on Career Colleges, Art Inst?

NoSeRider

Did you watch 60 Minutes on Sunday Jan 30th? There was an episode about career colleges.

The career colleges only required you had a pulse and could collect the government student loan. The administrator would give you a shpeal about 85% job placement......Art Institute did that to me, however I didn't take the bait. $70,000 is a lot.

ITT and Brookes Colleges were on that list.....do you think AI might be on that list too?

pogonip

Ehhhh in principle those colleges actually sound pretty good because you are getting hands on training rather then strictly class room . I dont know what the reality is ?? I would think those places are for people who cannot get into universities but still want to find a good job .

Jeremy Lindstrom

I think it's all what you make of it.. You can find someone that hates full sail and another that love it. It's pretty much how you take the initiative of what they teach you and what you do with it, more so then what they will offer you... if that makes sense. If you do the minimum to pass, you'll have a minimum portfolio, if you take what you've learned and do your own work out of school it will be much better.

I was thinking of going over to Full Sail, but when I realized they wanted 38k for 14 months of school, I decided I'd finish my Associates back over at International Academy of Design and Technology. Similiar type school, not as advanced but similiar material, plus I have tons of art books I can learn off as well.

killingpeople

of course it's what you make of it. i hate hearing that defense. students pay for PROFESSIONAL TRAINING, not professional direction. especially with a number like 60k. if they were trying to prevent you from learning you could still get something from it.

to answer your question noserider, yes. the art institutes give you a shpeal of 80-90% job placement (and can back it up, only according to the list i've seen, some jobs include kinkos and burgerking) and do not require a portfolio (it's recommended) but do require fiscal and academic standards.

ElysiumGX

I'm in a career college, not art related. When the course started, my class has an average of 20 people. Next semester, an average of 12 people. This quarter is down to 8 people. And I've realized that although the education is valuable, it's not a career that I'll thrive in, so the last quarter will be 5 or less. 3 of those don't pay attention in class, leaving only 2 out of 20 to possibly succeed.

It started out everyone wanted a cool job. Then they realized that will required effort, skill, and lots of education...and ran way in fear. So it really is what you make of it. I should have attended an art school.

jzero

I saw the 60 Minutes thing also. It wasn't a general story slamming two-year career colleges, it was about a specific company, Career Education Corporation, which has been doing quite well in profits and stock prices. Except that they're getting lawsuits from students and the government. I can't find any web info about the 60 Minutes story, so here's my paraphrase:

They've been taking anyone who's 'got $50 and a pulse', and making big bucks off of US government education loans. And their promise of "98% job placement" is sort of a lie, it just means that 98% of graduates were working after graduation. That is, they consider folding clothes at The Gap a legit fashion merchandising career, even though you can do that without needing a $30K student loan.

I checked the CEC web site, and they are NOT the owners of Art Institutes. They do run International Academy of Design & Technology, and the above-mentioned Brooks College. I'm not saying that other schools like CEC ones don't do the same things, but CEC was the focus of the 60 Minutes story.

/jzero

FatAssasin

Maybe the real question isn't whether or not they really give you a quality education, because that depends a lot on yourself, but whether or not it's worth the money to go there.

There are a lot of instructional books and DVD's out there, as well as online tutorials and forums where you can ask questions. And animationmenter.com seems to be a really cool, totally virtual, classroom idea. It will be interesting to see how well it's doing in a couple years.

So there are definitely alternatives to Full Sail and AI. The main thing you're not going to get by learning on you own, though, are a structered learning environment, and the contacts you would make at a tech college. But then again, you can make even better contacts after getting your first job in the industry.

oXYnary

Education is more than getting the skills, its requiring a broader sense of the world and your self. It gives you access to outlets and knowledge you normally wouldn't. Books can only go so far without the interactive communication of having others with actual experience.

Jeremy Lindstrom

Again, what I said it's really what you take out of the school. I am currently enrolled in IADT, and it stinks but I do have alot available to me to use and abuse, I just have to make the time to use it. Free maya tutoring, free use of the render stations, etc.

After you graduate you can continue to audit classes and work on your portfolio on off peak hours.

Scott Ruggels

Well I picked up Maya in two weeks and was proficient enough to do production in a month. And that was 8 hours a day hitting the books and doing book, and online tutorials. No trade school for me. All of my 3D was OJT. It just meant if not staying after work to learn it, weekends instead, making models.

Scott

NoSeRider

I've Taken a quarter of Maya at UCSD for a $1,000.....I'm not certain it was worth a $1,000, but I feel I learned something, and my Second Semester of Maya at a Community College for $75 seems equal of an education as compared to UCSD.....for $ 1,000.

I think if I paid $70,000 for school I would have slit my wrists.

Foehammer

heh...I graduated from ITT this past September, I learned alot, the over all quality of teachers there were poor I'd say, they don't listen to the students complaints/concerns, but my overall experience was great because I met 2 fantastic teachers up there that actually cared and went all out to teach their students, as a matter of fact one quit and the other really wants too and probably will very soon, they are now very good friends of mine, would i do it again? no, because I could have learned what I did on my own with out paying 32k for it, lesson learned though I guess...

MoP

NoSeRider: I bought a £20 book and taught myself Maya over the course of a month. Then I just got the guys at work to help me out when I hit a rough patch... unless you really needed to know a hell of a lot about Maya in a very short space of time, I don't see how you could justify spending $1000 on it, when if you just tried to spend an hour or two a day figuring out stuff and reading online tutorials, you could do it for free...

Ryno

There are lots of different factors here.

I actually made a career change once I figured out that you could actually make a living doing art. I already had a BA in International Relations of all things, and wanted to do 3d after always doing 2d art as a hobby. This was in 98, and all of the software was very expensive, with the exception of Max, which had just come out, and Lightwave. Unfortunately there was no way to get this software unless you went to some type of training center. There wasn't much chance of just finding a crack on the internet, and even if you did, connecion speeds made the issue tough.

I knew that I didn't want to go to another 4 years of school, and just wanted to learn the tools, so signed up for a 9 month Max program at the School of Communication arts, a trade school. This worked out great for me. I busted my tail, and got a job right out of school. There's really no other way I could have gotten into the field so quickly at the time.

That being said, out of the 50 or so people that were in the program when I was there, only about 6 of us were actually working in 3d last that I checked. Maybe 8 or so others were working in some graphics related field. Those of us who got in busted our butts, while many other students just whined, and never made it. It takes determination, tenacity, technical skill, and artistic talent to succeed. Those type of schools can only teach the technical stuff, which won't get you a job on it's own.

That being said, it is kind of sad that many of the tech/trade/art schools don't even do a good job teaching what they are supposed to be experts at. The quality of instruction seems very inconsistent.

I teach at Mesmer, and had AI kids come in and take my Max 2 week evening class, and tell me that they learned more about Max during that time than what they had in 4 years of school. This is bad. I also know that some of my students at Mesmer ended up teaching for other tech schools shortly after their training. And some of them weren't even good students. This is bad.

In this day and age, if I was going for a 3d education from scratch, I'd go to a junior college, and take some fine art classes, Photoshop, and whatever 3d I could. I'd then download the personal edition of whatever app seemed to be the "hot thing", and just start working on personal projects.

If I felt that I had the art skill to succeed, and just needed to get trained up quickly, I'd go to a super intensive short term (3 weeks or less) course such as those offered by Mesmer, Gnomon, etc., and learn from someone who really does have production experience, specifically in the sub-field of my choosing. These classes can be costly, but if you get a good instructor, you can avoid beating your head against a wall, and get up to speed much faster. It's a bit more costly, but for some people, could be worth it.

MoP

Ryno: One of my friends (on my uni course, where we have a 3dsmax class) sat and watched me modelling in EPoly in 3dsmax, and I answered whatever questions he had about what I was doing... after half an hour he said he'd learned more about modelling than in a whole semester's worth of teaching in the lessons.
It seems we are taught a whole load of junk that most people will never use in the industries they are aiming for. You do not need to know the whole 3d package inside-out (Maya, LW, Max, anything) to be able to create and texture good models for film or games, which is often all most people are trying to do. Anyway, once you get the basics of modelling, everything else just slowly (or quickly!) builds up as you explore the further possibilities and functions of the package.

I agree, people wanting to be top of the game in this field should first and foremost study traditional art, and THEN specialise in an area of art they want to work in. There are a lot of courses springing up around the UK making the most of the trend of people wanting to work in the entertainment industry, but they are often catch-all courses which teach you a little of everything and leave you with little or no practical training for entering a given career... it's kinda sad.

This is just my perspective though. And I am slap-bang in the middle of one of the courses I just described a moment ago

But hey it's the degree that counts!

PaK

AIS boasted 90% job placement.

Kinko's was considered job placement for some of my grad collegues.

Now that I'm in a position to scout perspective artists for our team I always raise a brow to those that went to my artschool cuz the reality is: they have 'zero' understanding of the words 'industry standard'

-R

JKim3

[ QUOTE ]
Now that I'm in a position to scout perspective artists for our team I always raise a brow to those that went to my artschool cuz the reality is: they have 'zero' understanding of the words 'industry standard'

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys get applications from AI Seattle? Or are you talking about the AI Van-Burnaby? Man, I saw a bunch of those DVD reels with Ren, and they all blew.

I went to a career college, too, and if you just consider what they taught and how much it was, it wasn't worth it (but it wasn't $70K or whatever, just $20K CDN total, or $270 US). But, like FatAssassin says, I did learn alot from a structured environment (which sounded great in interviews) and have gotten 3 interviews through contacts.

NoSeRider

Currently going there:
http://www.wattsatelier.com/home.html

And taking a Maya class at a Community College.

I won't get a A bachelor's degree, but If the whole point is to be educated and have a good portfolio I think what I'm doing will accomplish that.

Besides, I've taken Calculus, Biology, Chemistry, Spanish, Geomotry, History....blah blah blah blah. I could take classes forever. But the point of going to school is to get a job not a A bachelor's degree.

[Edit]Apparently, I should have taken English[/Edit]

Scott Ruggels

Tell me all about the Watts Attelier classes, please?

Scott

NoSeRider

Basically, I'm taking classes at Watts to get away from that linear caligraphy type drawing I do.....I'm trying to learn color, hues and contrast, instead of linear drawing/form. Not to say learning how to draw form is not important, but it doesn't end there.

Ron Lemen and is wife Venessa were the showcase instructors at the San Francisco Concept Design Convention...they teach at that school.

The school really emphasizes the human figure. So if you want to learn industrial design, that's not the place to go.

Watts is more about concept design, digital/traditional painting and the human figure.....however they offer classes in perspective, inking and anatomy studies.

Watts emphasises drawing fast and eficiently for your clientel....not some new age hippy stuff about waiting to get inspired and getting good vibes before you draw. It's more about preperation.

I visited AI in San Diego, and the student life drawing examples looked like they were done by 3 year old....so that compelled me to goto Watts. I've talked to people who've gone to Art Center in Pasadena, and they have said Watts's Life Drawing classes are better, but Art Center is more of an industrial design center so there ya go.