Is being a successful 3d artist a loophole?
polycounter lvl 19
So I spent the weekend in San Fran with an entire wearhouse full of insanely tallented artists. It was unbelievable some of these kid's (literally) sketchbooks and the level of composition, form, design, color choices, and surface detail that was put into their characters and environments. It put my stuff to shame. However many of them are struggling to find jobs, and will continue to do so, while I sit in a nice posh studio job that pays fairly well. What is it that justifies this dichotomy, or is there anything? The only difference between myself and them is a little bit of experience and the knowledge to operate some fairly technical applications to create my art. Thinking of all the artists I have seen both in the field and on this board, I feel the general artistic level within the "game art" community is a good deal lower than the general artistic level within the traditional illustration and concept art community.
Mop, Tagheuer, Scott Ruggels, and myself were all discussing what exactly justified this difference, if anything does, while eating a HUGE meal at Chilis (fun times 4all). I just figured after checking the GD forum and finding it filled with dribble, a good discussion topic was in order. What do you think?
Mop, Tagheuer, Scott Ruggels, and myself were all discussing what exactly justified this difference, if anything does, while eating a HUGE meal at Chilis (fun times 4all). I just figured after checking the GD forum and finding it filled with dribble, a good discussion topic was in order. What do you think?
Replies
mhmh i might add. that the reason for not being as artistic
as those kids are is that u are interested in games. or were
interested and took that step first and then became
artistic.
i guess those lads were allways after what they do now.
maybe?
im guessing. however still this might have to do with it.
also artistic satisfaction is set up higher for the artistic
individual than the gaming industry at some places maybe?
in the end it really up to u. cuz its teh strength of the
individual. the hard work and the effort they put in which
im sure u do to. well
i prolly need to have a talk about it and hear some of your
thought and the thoughts of the others and also your mothers
its fairly easy for somone with a degree of talent to become a good artist , and learning the programs and tech of the games industry is no objective , there is a right and wrong way of doing it , so its just a matter of time before its learnt , however , you need to be a certain type of person to have the guts to put yourself out there and shout out , im great ! give me a job , somone will listen if you shout long enough , and if you know somone in the industry, then you have a good start. for me , i dont even know anyone who does 3d art , let alone somone in the industry , it would be really great to talk to somone 1 to 1 about my work. i think thats another thing that helps ppl in the industry grow quickly ...
But as with all things... stuff you can do, seems easy and 'not really worth' much... while stuff you can't do looks harder than it might be in reality.
So I spent the weekend in San Fran with an entire wearhouse full of insanely tallented artists. It was unbelievable some of these kid's (literally) sketchbooks and the level of composition, form, design, color choices, and surface detail that was put into their characters and environments. It put my stuff to shame. However many of them are struggling to find jobs, and will continue to do so, while I sit in a nice posh studio job that pays fairly well. What is it that justifies this dichotomy, or is there anything? The only difference between myself and them is a little bit of experience and the knowledge to operate some fairly technical applications to create my art. Thinking of all the artists I have seen both in the field and on this board, I feel the general artistic level within the "game art" community is a good deal lower than the general artistic level within the traditional illustration and concept art community.
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I agree, I agree, I agree......I've always thought that, and never said it fearing the polycount gods.
Basically, people in the 3D game field are hired for their technical ability primarily, at least that's the way it was 5 years ago. Artistic ability is usually secondary.
Artistic ability is now becoming primary though.
There is a personality factor involved as well. Alot of people get hired simply based on making contacts and being gregarious.
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, however , you need to be a certain type of person to have the guts to put yourself out there and shout out , im great ! give me a job , somone will listen if you shout long enough , and if you know somone in the industry, then you have a good start
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And of course there's the age factor....the dog sniffing the butt syndrome....it has more to do with cosmetics then it does to do with ability.
There's a certain amount of arrogance that is required to get and find a job in the 3D Game field. It has more to do with perseverance then it does with talent.
looking at the other posts i found:
"its not what you know , its who you know ..."
and
"Alot of people get hired simply based on making contacts and being gregarious."
true of anyone looking for a job in almost any field. the justification for a person and getting them a job in a particular field is almost entirely based upon association. well, it's mostly association anyway. it's just easier for an employer to relate a face and their character to a person that they already employ, and as a result the employer may think:
"well, if good guy B was recommended by good guy A and good guy A is a decent all around good guy, then by asscociation good guy B must be a good guy as well"
as with most things in life, its a double edged sword. they people that are recommended either value their new job heavily or they just abuse and think "oh well, my friend just got me this job and i can just screw around because someone else can me a job later". i'm pretty sure most artists don't think like that because artists do want to make great work and not just crap (but arrogance could play a role in some cases).
i hada fellow polycounter land me a job, and i'm very much grateful for it very much (i carved a statue out of wood in his honor and bronzed it with...caramel?)
but i've seen others here at mythic that got a job just from ability and capability alone and i acknowledge that a rather standout accomplishment.
Seriously though, you have put tons of energy into figuring out how to establish a career in games, and putting your thoughts into action (e.g. hanging out on forums lots and posting endlessly, networking as much as possible, going to game art gatherings, being willing to move, asking for moderate salaries, putting out online tutorials etc etc). Many artists focus almost exclusively on making art, and don't manage their careers well, whether it's in fine art, video games, or whatever.
When it comes to quality of game art, that is not a simple issue. Game art quality can be affected by tight deadlines, low budgets, changing technology, shoddy tools, clients and management at all levels that may hurt rather than help art quality, and the other potential problems that stem from having a large heirarchy creating art. A lone artist pretty much has free reign to create what they want, and can focus on what they do best.
3D art is an unusual field, in that it takes a combination of technical and artistic skill and talent to be successful. That's not the norm in the general art market, I think. But no, I don't think it's a loophole, because there are other artistic markets that have the same characteristics.
I'd compare 3D art with something like industrial design, which also requires both technical and aesthetic ability. And you don't have to be a talented portrait artist to kick it in ID. This is the same for what my wife used to do, silk floral design -- requires technical and aesthetic skill in a combination that is a bit elusive.
/jzero
you have to get out there and mingle and mix it up, the best artist will have trouble getting hired if they hide away.
If you feel you don't deserve your job because there's better artists out there than you, I suggest you go ahead and swtich careers now. There's always someone better than you. Hell, how many of them have even tried to get a 'posh studio job'? Maybe they don't want one.
Frank the Avenger
Don't alot of people get hired because they're relations?
I know a kid whose father was a FireChief and hired his son as a fire fighter....his son had a bad back and wouldn't have been hired off the street if his physical revealed his bad back.
Basically, I'm saying are there examples of nepotism where the artist sucks but a relative hired'm?
At college I noticed a trend amongst the some students. They wanted to work in movies and gaming doing high profile art, but their 2d skills were lacking and it showed in the 3d work. I personally believe 2d is where it all starts. It seamed like they only drew in drawing class and did corny projects for the teacher. A Vast majority did not draw for the sake of getting better. They just drew to get a grade. I dont think thats gona cut it.
We in the games industry produce artifice.
Theres a world of difference. Art is not appreciated in the games industry, artifice and the ability to quickly churn out cliched assets to a highly polished technical degree is what is used to judge whether or not we get hired.
Theres no time for high art in the increasingly hectic schedule of the games industry. As the demands upon the 'artist' continue to be raised by the incredibly technical nature of the technology we use as our medium, the distance between a true artist and an industry art monkey increases.
As brilliant as these guys are, they just know how to paint pictures and that doesn't translate into a game.
I think I'm on to something here as many seasoned 'artist' i know in the industry all have a stress relieving art they do in their spare time that has nothing to do with computers or gameart.
Each of these people, whether they are sculpting, painting, making pottery, carving wood or whatever it is they do, are all talking about how great it felt to just make something without ' all this ' ( gesturing towards the banks of monitors and pcs, wacoms etc ).
Plus, to be fair, these great painters want to remain painters, they have very fixed ideas about how they want to use their art in general, they are still dreamers and have not gotten down to the brass tacks roots of what it is to be a whore and sell your creativity.
Of course, I am a cynic. I see the same pattern in the movie industry and in literature, as time goes on, in our modern age of 'big business', the chance for risk taking and experimentation and high art in any creative endeavour slowly decreases.
I routinely go to conceptart.org and sijun forums and feed my angst about being a fucking monkey and not an artist anymore... but as you say, I'm in a comfortable well paid job.
I think the truth is that all artists have to choose between short term creativity and long term stability. Most artists I know that are fresh out of college or young, are still dreamers that haven't wrestled with the harsh reality of the world yet.
Well I'm off to slash my wrists, cya!
Same with career management vs artistic purity. Artists should spend some energy on managing their careers, and some energy on doing their jobs and continually learning/growing as an artist.
It is possible, with the right opportunities, to create some 'real art' on the job. It may not happen often, and it certainly won't happen where hackwork is the status quo. But it can, and does.
/jzero
The only difference between myself and them is a little bit of experience and the knowledge to operate some fairly technical applications to create my art.
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I think you answered your own question right there. I also think that you are underestimating your own skill and abilities in the technical aspects. IMO, part of being a game artist is being both strong in the left brain AND the right brain. Not everyone with artistic talent is able to grasp the technical aspects of game development and software.
I like my job, i love to vegetate in front of the monitor and nodd my head a lot while music plays too loudly on my headphones as I drool and go crosseyed.
It makes me happy... I've just rationalised long since that I'm not an artist anymore and I came to that conclusion a long time ago.
I'm the man behind the curtain.
I know that doesent compare with making port o potties for a racing game, but The fundamentals are the same. We as artists naturally have the right and duty to push the limits on every thing we do. So Im making a port o pottie, It's gonna be the sweetest port o pottie ever! Im gonna squeeze every pixel of that 256 to the max. Noone may notice how sweet this port o pottie is, but my skills grow, and I grow. do you get what Im saying?
If they are truly that talented, if they just make sure their stuff is seen by a lot of people, the jobs will come. If they just have good, but not insane talent, it will take a lot more work knocking on doors, making contacts, etc. Good old legwork will make you contacts, and contacts are what get you jobs.
Poop: Creativity is the food the fuels many of us to push forward through life. Given the choice of starving artist, or high paid slave to management...many would be unhappy with the latter. In a perfect world, one could find both. Those kids will find jobs if they look hard enough. And if enough join your career, you'll be replaced.
At worst, getting an entry job takes no more than a couple months clicking buttons in a illegal copy of Max.
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Is that all? Damn, people must still be using my old email address to send all those job offers for all these years!
So, how come I, who don't describe myself as an artist, have a nice Art role at a games studio, while others, who are real *Artists, who can draw and paint and produce amazing works as easily as I can make a cup of tea, are unemployed, at least in an artistic field?
Because firstly I don't give much of a monkeys about what I do. As Ror said I don't produce art, I produce Artifice. I produce what I'm told to produce, as close as I can to the description of the thing I'm given to produce. Sometimes I don't get much of a description, and then I do get some opportunity to be inventive or creative, but ultimately this is more to do with design than art.
The second thing I have that they don't (perhaps) is an understanding of what is required to produce an useable asset. I'm not paid to go crazy and do whatever I like. I'm not paid to do 50 textures for one model at 2048x2048 each and models using millions of polys. I'm paid to produce something within a *very restrictive set of constraints. It *has to be under X number of polys, the textures cannot take up more than X amount of video ram, it *must be made with this this and this code in mind, and most importantly it has to be finished by Friday. *This Friday, no excuses.
If I was a true artist, or at least considered myself a true artist at work (I think there are real artists in the industry, but the switch it off when they're at work or they don't last long), I'd go mental in just a few days under such conditions. Very few true artists are restricted to even an Nth degree of your average games artist (or graphic designer, or commercial artist, or medical illustrator etc etc). They have no-one to say "Your canvas must be this size and you can only use such and such paint."
Now, back to work, I have to finish this model by Friday
These guys are artists. The work they produce is done on their own time, with their own methods, in their own style, of their own ideas. None of which are really standard in this industry. Frequently, the personalities that make great artists don't make great employees. If they have any concerns about compromising artistic integrity, then they should look for fine-art commissions or get a job at McDonalds and do art in what spare time they have.
Personally, I regard what I do as art. Its not "artsy fartsy" but its still very much art. Usually artsy fartsy stuff is fairly arrogant/pompus and annoying anyway.
but i feal that 3d is still an art form. i find it upsetting that someone only gets the label as an artist when they produce traditional art, like a sculpture or a painting.
i've had arguments with people who've seen a scupture made out of wood or something, telling me about how much detail was in it. i'll tell them that the amount of detail put into a 3d model is like 10X the above mentioned scupture, (withought commenting on how much skill took to make either one) and they just don't seem to process or apprecieate it or something. it's almost like their brain chokes on it and just kind of throws the info aside. note - I'm not saying that the level of detail defines what's artistic.
everything humans do has artistic merit in it. from they way we walk to the way we paint.
anyway that's my 2 cents.
it's a shame that amazing traditional artists often starve. but.. i guess that's just the way the big, hulking, ecconomy/culture train is barreling down the tracks.
But also;
You also have to ask yourself would these guys who paint fantastic 2d pictures have a clue about tri stripping, mesh topology, z fighting, alpha sorting, portal spaces, light maps or even shaders?
Life is a like a roleplay game, and we all chose one of them hybrid classes... neither the theif or barbarian, just somewhere in between.
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In 1508, Julius transferred the artist to paint the Sistine Chapel ceiling. Michelangelo accepted the commission, but right from the start he considered Pope Julius plans altogether too simple. It was something unheard of for a patron, to allow his own plans to be completely changed by an artist. In this case, moreover, the change of plan meant that the work would have an entirely different meaning from the original one.
Since he was not very familiar with the technique of fresco, he needed the help of several Florentine painters, as well as their advice. But his ambition to produce a work that would be absolutely exceptional made it impossible for him to work with others, and in the end he did the whole thing himself. This was something quite unprecedented. Not only was the work so vast in scale, but no artist hitherto had ever undertaken a whole cycle of frescoes without an efficient group of helpers. Michelangelo helped to create his own legend, complaining of the enormous difficulties of the enterprise.
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http://www.abcgallery.com/M/michelangelo/michelangelobio.html
A: The constant conflict between Mike and the Pope.
B: Mike doing it himself versus a team.
C: Mikes acceptance of his ego.
The above are thing not wanted (or more, leads to no contract renewal) in the industry.
There is a decent movie called "The Agony and the Ecstasy" (novel by Irving Stone,) that goes over the constant strain between the Pope and Michalengelo.
heres somthing tho ... last year , i taught my girlfriend how to use maya in a day ... at the begining of the day , she couldnt do a thing .. not rotate thae camara or anything ... at the end of the day she had an assortment of fairly good models , now she isnt an artist normaly , but i consider what she did as art ... it probly took me a couple of months to get the the point she got to in a day . because i had to learn by myself how to do it. i dont think im a better or worse arttist in this area , because i feel that art can only be judged when you know what the intent of the artist is ... its objective. i doubt i could have made a much better representation of a stapler than she made , but if she had tried to make a face , im sure she would have struggled , not because she didnt understand the program but because she wouldnt understand the face as well as me ... i guess what im trying to say is computers are our paint brushes, anyone can use one , given a small amount of training . but to use one well, that is our art.
so when you see a guy who can paint a brilliant picture , but he cant make a brilliant 3d model , think of yourself as an equal, he could learn you computer just as easly as you could learn his brush ... it just takes time ...
- sorry about my inabilety to convey my meanings.
.. and they just don't seem to process or apprecieate it or something. it's almost like their brain chokes on it and just kind of throws the info aside.
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yep. i've met some fantastically good people in their chosen field, who still tell me that they can't fathom how or why I do what I do (anyone who does tech support and admin can tell you that troubleshooting computer problems involves troubleshooting people at no extra cost).
The problem with tunnel vision is the low threshold of osmotic tolerance when it comes to absorbing unsolicited information. ie. When asked "how did you do that?" it usually doesn't mean they want to know about the mountain of information, or the time it takes to sift through and come to logical conclusions, they wanted the whole process in 25 words or less otherwise they just go cross-eyed and glaze over and nod politely. Purists will have a hard time seeing it, if at all.
I feel completely different from rorshach and harlequin. I am an artist, and I create art. I am not a line worker, and I never will be.
Also, I do not think I don't deserve my job, I think its a sad world where someone else is struggling just to pay rent, who has traditional skillz so far beyond my own. These were not fine artists, these guys were concept artists. So many of them told me, I just want to get paid for doing art, I don't care how. Many of them were open to learning 3d, and I am working on helping them with that.
If being able to work within limits is the qualifier for our wages, what happens when games are advanced enough to have little to no limitations? Will all of those in the industry with weak traditional skills be kicked to the curb?
I think it has to be something more than just being able to think creatively within a box.
I'm studying with Ron Lemen.
Something's gotta give.
A loophole. Uh.
maybe its not complicated to make a character model, but it is complicated to create one fucking nice one.
You went to the workshop, a place wheres kids that does art go to, Of course half of them doesnt have job in the art field. What did you expect.
Game art is not an easy field either. theres lots of competition and like daz said, theres gazillions of shit to do to put a character in a game.
Art is an hard field to get a job, even tho you are good, it take a good amount of self publicity, good talking skills, experience, connection/contacts.
bah.
b1ll
my personal problem has been the need to have a "joe job" to pay the bills , and the amount of time needed for me to learn not only what ppl in the industry know , but what they are learning now!! which is pretty imposible if you think about it , i literaly have to spend more time , or be alot better than them at learning.
I love making games and not kidding myself that I am making art is what helps me do that.It's the people that think they are 'artists' ( I call them industry brats!) that are typically harder to work with and more prone to prima donna displays because they have to cut down the res of their masterpiece... sheesh.
We make product folks.
I apply the same rule to making a game, I don't want to be a part of anyones Magnum Opus, finest hour creation, I want to be part of a fun game that sells well and earns me a packet in bonus money
I may be a cynic, but I'm a realist and I get the job done to a high standard and far faster than average because of my attitude being geared toward the team effort of producing a game rather than the individual notion of 'making art'.
Whilst I certainly have to nod towards Daz's comments about our ability to create great paintings if we had the time to focus on one pie rather than sticking our fingers in a 100, I will always deny that gameart itself is art.
I still say gameart is artifice and whilst the creation of it, the marrying together of the left and right side of brain, the give and take between inspiration and technical restraints may be 'an art', the final asset is not art imo.
If I had the opinion that its all art forced on me, I would have to conceed that we all make bad art!
I mean, when we paint a figure holding a sword upright straight in the air, their muscles taut and sinewed from the effort of maintaining that rigid pose under the weight of the sword, it makes sense as a whole.
In the games industry, that sword is optimised out due to memory restrictions , the area the figure is standing on is simplified down to ensure theres a lighter loading time and so on until the figure doesn't make much sense just standing there all taut for less reason than they did before.
When a painter makes a painting such as this and the client requests getting rid of the sword, the painter goes into an uproar about how that will ruin the picture and is bitter and twisted out of shape by the suggestion because it will ruin the painting.
And thats why I don't like to work with 'artists' in the game industry, I prefer to work with my fellow art monkeys who produce the assets for the game. It makes life a lot easier.
Personally, I think everybody is stupid, so I guess that makes me stupid.....despite the fact you're stupid.
Here's a thought.
There's a difference between geeking out about software, and making something.
You can know every button and script in a 2D/3D software package, but does that mean you can make art?
Whether you consider yourself a tool for the machine or an emoting artist, generally your primary goal is to make something pleasing or engrossing to others.....knowing a tool and making something for an audience is 2 different things.
If you're trying to please somebody thru the aesthetics of creating an object albeit 2D or 3D, then you're an artist.
You can make the same arguement that that is what a carpenter, or baker, or accountant does.....but you can't tell the difference between houses, donuts, or spreadsheets of numbers......you can tell who made a texture, a model, a game.
Poop: You are obviously a newcomer to the industry, and you love your work. You are devoted to your craft, and motivated to excel with your talents and help others who crave the same goals, which is inspirational.
Ror: You have experience and talent. You have a wife and child to support. You use you abilities to pay the bills and support your family. You have no desire to sacrifice your living for the sake of art. As you explained, you simply want to work as a team to produce a good product, which is respectable.
It sounds reasonable that an "artist" may interfere with team efforts. A professional may have all the experience and skill to be an artist in his own time, but as an employee, you're using those talents to create a well crafted product. It's not a masterpiece.
The hairs on the back of my neck stand up too easily I admit, but surely you don't expect to toss around phrases like 'lineworker' in reference to me and expect no comeback?
If you want to consider me an industry slacker, you go right ahead because I probably will go right ahead thinking that most people here are immature because they are younger than me.
I'm fine with the fact that Ruggels and co who are older again than myself, no doubt consider me immature.... you might like to ask yourself why you have a problem with those older than you having the right to think that, and I don't.
Just keep in mind that its our messageboard opinions we are each taking offense to socially. We haven't the slighest idea how either of us are socially in a context where opinions on such important matters to us such as art and career are not being called into question.
I'd wager that that my opinions on these matters are just as widely different to the people I work with here also, but I still get on great with them and respect them.
I love you Ror!
I share the same feelings.
Even though I don't consider myself to be a 'true artist' when I'm at work, it doesn't make me a slacker. Nor does it mean that I produce a crappy end result. Nor does it mean that I don't have pride / care for what I'm working on.
I'm an asset hired by a company to create game assets. Simple enough. Even more-so, I'm in charge of creating game assets that non-artistic people will like. I'm not an artist that has free-reign on everything and anything I work on. Which is what true artistic expression is.
To me, it's possible to be artistic within said limitations and restrictions, though, I see a difference between being 'artistic with limitations' and being 'artistic without'.
I'm a true artist when I'm at home, with noone around to tell me what to do. I do what I want. That's true artistic expression at it's best.
Funny that. To me a slacker is someone who doesn't get the job done. I do however get the job done, on time or faster.
"I want to work with artists that are passionate about what they create, and infusing as much artistic knowledge, ability, and craft as they can under the cohesive whole of the AD's vision and the set deadlines."
Just because I don't consider myself an artist doesn't mean I'm not enthusiastic about what I'm working on, I've worked on games that get me laughed at both here in my new job and among polycounters, but I was as enthusiastic for those as I am for what I'm doing now. Enthusiasm has nothing to do with art, or being an artist. It also doesn't mean I have no artistic knowlede; you don't have to be a physicist to understand the theory of General Relativity, and it doesn't mean I have no ability to do what I'm doing, since I evidently do or I'd have been shown the door long since.
I won't comment on the rest of what you said as that was intended very specifically for Ror and not me, but if you'd said that to me you'd be getting a pretty rude comeback.
But the thing is, its not whether you have "sold out", or if you are an "artist" or not, but how big your creativity is, and can it be sparked into producing after hours? I work to "live" rather than live to work, so my mind is on my "after school projects" like custom models or this newfound interest in matte painting, that is dragging me back to small independant film making. I used to do comics. the thing is, some of us, like me are compelled to keep the pencl moving. to create, whether we are on the clock or off. The reasons I think are uniportant for the reason for the particular work, as long as work, creative work is being made. Yeah I'm a grunt line worker, in the trenches, but at least I am using my talents every day. rather than only a couple of times a week in management.
Scott
We have people graduating from the AI's, SCAD, full sail, vfs, etc who know what buttons to push to make the program work. They know the technical ins and outs, they know how it all works, but they are the ones who are clogging up the unemployment line, and complaining that there are no jobs in the industry.
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Poop: Why cant those people who attend such schools as Institutes not be talented also?
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You get someone with even moderate fine art skills that can use 3d programs, and they get snatched up by companies.
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Where?
Rorshach:
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If you want to consider me an industry slacker, you go right ahead because I probably will go right ahead thinking that most people here are immature because they are younger than me.
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That attitude itself is a sign of a closed mind. Once your mind is closed, you can never grow as much. You might as well check yourself into a retirement community at that point. That or move to feudal japan.
People should be seen by their actions as an individual. Not by some unrealistic notion that if A is older than B, than A is automatically more "mature". What if B has experienced more of the world than A?
Before you go off that my idea is a sign of someone younger. I am in fact the same age as you.
I continue to work on a game design in my spare time, building the assets, writing up the doc, researching the setting whilst also making time to paint family pictures for my Wife and Daughter.
I've always had creativity to spare and a constantly changing artstyle borne out of my drive to try all things that are still unknown to me.
Harl: Rude comeback's won't really make me feel any better but hearing a couple of others speak up that understand the difference I was trying to define goes a long way to preventing me feeling alienated by the general opinion here.
It's a nice change from people feeling that I have to be a prick because I disagree with them.
Oh and Oxy: I don't remember addressing you but ...
'3: (used of living things especially persons) in an early period of life or development or growth; "young people" '
By definition, anyone younger than me is more immature than me, if you are going to argue that point, you are arguing with the dictionary
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im·ma·ture Audio pronunciation of "immature" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-tyr, -tr, -chr)
adj.
1. Not fully grown or developed. See Synonyms at young.
2. Marked by or suggesting a lack of normal maturity: silly, immature behavior.
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(dictionary.com)
From how you implied originally, you were speaking of behavior (2). So which is it? Behavior or Physical age?
You have plenty of times stepped in with my disagreements with others Ror. You cannot come back to use that on me.