What game to mod?

Rick Stirling

After xmas I will be running a contest to build a PPM SDK (model ONLY) for a game, and another one after that to create textures for the winner of the PPM contest - this way we will get a nice pack like Polycount had in the old days.

But what game? UT2004 seems like it could be the best bet, but I'm throwing this open to suggestions - perhaps even Quake3. No normal maps will be used, the PPM would need those also, and it may cut down on the creativty of the texture artists.

As a community effort, I'll be looking for someone to rig/animate, although out of the box animations may well do.

TomDunne

I'd personally like to see some HL2 models, now that HL2DM is available. That and nearly everyone has the game - I know of a couple good UT2004 mods that aren't played much, and I think it's because there really aren't that many people who bought the game.

On the downside, the support for HL2 content is still a bit fuzzy at the moment. I've yet to find an import/export utility for taking HL2 content into 3DS Max, and HLMV doesn't seem to work with all of the HL2 .mdl files

oXYnary

Ut2k4 has alot of life left. Thats what gets me... The HL2 network code sucks, and well pretty much always has. The only thing it has going for it is the grav gun. Doom III's multiplayer is generic enough that I dont think you want to do a contest for a straight deathmatch character.

Anyone out there imported into all three and can say which is more streamlined?

Maybe you could make it a three part. Another contest for the normal mapped version (in engines that support it).

Hollowmind

I'd say UT2004. It's reasonably easy to make models for and get them in-game plus you can get really creative with them.

MoP

I'd personally like to see HL2 models too, but there's waaay more documentation and reference for getting stuff into UT2k4. Plus it's a very fun multiplayer and will no doubt be getting played for a while. As has been said, HL2's netcode is pretty useless for online play, it's fine over a LAN though.
I haven't tried getting anything into Doom3 so I can't comment on that, but after reading up on it, it seems UT2k4 is the easiest process (nice 3dsmax plugins, easy to use catch-all editor, huge amounts of possible customisation through custom skeletons etc.).

Quake3 is still a possibility but (although I hate to say it) it's definitely getting more on the backburner these days. I'm sure you'd get a huge amount of artists working on textures for a Q3 model, since the texture sizes are likely to be smaller, IMHO easier and faster to work with.

But then again, you'd have to have a kickass character that was both innovative enough to be interesting, while still generic enough to have loads of different textures done for it without them all looking similar when applied to the model.

MoP

FatAssasin

I've created characters for UT2K3 and it was pretty easy to get them into the game using Max, even with a custom skeleton (not Biped) and custom animations. And I've been working on getting a character into HL2, but so far its a pain. Although I'm sure it'll get easier as the community as a whole figures out how to work with it.

malcolm

My vote goes for Half life 2 with full normal map, model the hi res character and the low res and bake down the normal map, then supply both hi res and low res in the SDK and the participating artists can change the model how every they like, even modify the hi res for new normal maps. I wonder how we will do create a character on next gen with normal maps? Also I can't wait to see some models start rolling in for the new engines, so far the only person I have seen get anything in game is Vahl with his space man in Doom3.

Joshua Stubbles

eck. I'm not too fond of normal maps. In Halflife 2, they did a good job using them though. They were mostly non-visible
Normal Maps tend to make everything look like shiny plastic/metal, or at the very least, OVERLY specular. It's just not very realistic looking.

IMO, normal maps only belong on enviornment stuff.

kleinluka

it depends on how subtly you use them... in combination with the specular map. if they are used in a subtle way you can get some amazing results

Rick Stirling

But if we go with normal maps it will constrict the texture atist to a degree, and also the modeller will need to create a hi-res model. And the last comp had normal maps. This one is for folk who are "skeered of all tha new fangled nurmel mappings stuff"

lkraan

I would go for HL2. By the time the models and textures are done there should be decent documentation on how to get a model working in-game. If not then there's enough brainpower here to figure it out

MoP

True, lkraan.
Actually, if you just released a low-poly model for HL2 with an interesting enough design, I'm sure there are some modellers out there (me, for one) who would try making a high-detail version for normal-mapping. That way you'd only have to make the low-poly, and it could either be textured in the "traditional" manner, or bump/normal-mapped (greyscale painted, or modelled) depending on what the texture artist wants to do!

Vassago: You've got to realise that it is not the normal-map that makes "everything look like shiny plastic/metal" - any example of that (Far Cry, and IMHO Doom3 in places) is just using bad, overdone specular maps. If the specular is done subtle enough, and with the right variation for materials, the normal-maps will look great (like the Antlions in HL2!).
As kleinluka says, it's all about subtlety with normal-maps - too many games have been using them "to the max!" in order to show off their new tech. It's being used like a crutch when it should (and can easily) be used as an asset.

oXYnary

Don't forget, one doesn't neccesarily have to start from scratch with a high poly model to make a normal map. It could be instead like using zbrush, or even some tweaking using the nvidia normal map plugin for photoshop.

Also, being on a older version of max, normal maps aren't available without additional plugins (from what I have been told by discreet guys - still don't work correctly?? [ya, they could have been pushing for the upgrade]).

Joshua Stubbles

MoP - I absolutely agree. It's the overdone spec+normal maps that drive me insane. HL2 does an amazing job with normal mapping tech. It's very subtle, so it looks realistic.

oXYnary - While it's a great tool, Zbrush isn't quite available to non-pro mod teams. The photoshop plugin is great at making normal maps for enviornments, but it cannot be used for characters - it simply looks like crap. This only leaves one alternative - creating a high poly mesh. Most mod modelers do not have the skill needed to make those hi-def meshes, either.

Most of the characters in HL2 are around 2-4000 tris. With good texturing, normal maps won't be needed (imo). For those teams out there with uber-modeler talent, they will be the lucky ones to have proper normal maps for their mod.

Scott Ruggels

I'd go for UT2004, because at least themodel would get used. it's not that hard to get a model in, if you use a default skeleton, not as easy as Quake2 was, but fairly easy. It's less easy, but not difficult to have a custom animated characterin UT2K4. HL2... I'd say wait 6 months until the path is more well documented.

Scott

EarthQuake

I'de love to see a hl2 contest. And really i think the real reason for the plastic look with spec/normals is partly to do with exagerated values in the specular but mostly to do with the fact that there is a set specular cone, or glossiness in lightwave, that you cant change thus limiting the control you have over the specular and making everything look the same with just different values. Correct me if im wrong but this seems to make the most sense to me.

Edit: As far as actually making high-res models for normal mapping for the texturing phase i think that would be a bit off for a texturing contest and would make it a bit unfair to the people who are just texture artists and dont know how to model, dont have the time or are not good enough with high poly to do so. I would say diffuse/painted bump/specular/alpha/illuminosity and or glow is what you would want to go with. Would be nice to see something like a 6,000 poly limit too, alyx is 7500

Rick Stirling

I very tempted just to go with UT2004, simply becuase I DONT WANT TO USE NORMAL MAPS AT ALL - Bobos comp had them as an integral part.

I also want the texturing part to be open to anyone without the need for bump/spec/opacity maps.

MoP

Go for UT2k4 then

Nostradamus

Now with the XSI mod tool out though, you can model your maps in xsi(or any other app that can export obj files).
And normal mapping isn't used a lot in HL2... only on the environment, which can be done with a simple plugin for photoshop....

KDR_11k

Actually the only normalmapping I spotted in HL2 was on (some of) the characters, the black shadows on them are rather noticeable. Try playing DM as the Combine special ops guy (or what that white one is called), you can clearly see the normalmapping when you die.