Brand Spankin' New BR2 Image Dump thread w/ a bite
polycounter lvl 18
Hello polycounters, my name is Joe Wampole and I was the lead game designer for BR1 now working at 3DR. It seems that Jesse Sosa has been talking about me and my work in an earlier thread and I wanted to clear up a few things.
First, Jesse, your character work is really looking good. Youve improved immensely since you started at TRI. Seriously, I mean it.
However, your attitude is still a little poseur...
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It was a collab between the game designer and art director of BR1. Yeah, I said the game designer and art director. Yeah, they're working on Duke Forever now. I guess 3D Realms is pretty easy to get into.
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Was that really necessary?
How bout an anecdote, Jesse? Remember when I told you I was leaving TRI to go to 3DR? You told me, Cool, I know some guys there. I said something like Wow, I just met them during the job interview, but who do you know?
To which you replied something to the effect, Well I dont really know their real names, but I know their online handles. Oh really. Then you didnt *know anyone* from 3DR, you were just a fanboy. Why did you start with such a front? Because you were a poseur then and you still act like one.
As for 3DR, presently I am far happier here than I ever was at TRI for numerous reasons. Some of which would be too unprofessional for me to list here and many of which I cant talk about due to the secrecy surrounding DNF. Youd rather be in my place, Jesse. Ill have to leave it at that.
Back to you, Jesse:
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The game designer was a character artist on Nocturne and Blair Witch 1. Rayne, in those games, was named 'Svetlana', and she was one of his characters. So when BloodRayne came around, and was redesigned, he wanted to personally build her since he was pretty attached to her character.
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Jesus Christ. At least get your facts straight when talking about someone especially if youre belittling them behind their back.
The very first Svetlana concept originated from Drew Haworth. I did a revision in pencil. Aside from a texture modification by Mike Porter, Dan Borth built and textured the Svetlana that went into the game. Dan added the arm blades and the final version hardly resembled the concepts, if at all. So a lot of hands went into the design and overall, I had hardly anything to do with it.
For BloodRayne, Chris DeSimone did the bulk of the early concept for Rayne herself. Of course, we ended up using Feng Zhus awesome concept, and Chris DeSimone built and textured her. Once again, I didnt have much to do with the look of that character.
If youre going to make snide remarks about me on a public forum at least go to my site at www.3dprofessional.com and reference something I actually did.
That isnt a slight on Chris BR model either. In the comparison shot between Chris and your Rayne, there are elements that I like better on both. Though I like the proportions of your BRs body better, I think your face looks like an alien or cartoon. Maybe thats intentional, but to me it looks like you were going for realistic, but missed just a little bit. I also prefer the paler skin tone as it ties more to the vampiric nature of Rayne.
Regardless, you posting the comparison shot followed by your jab about easy hire at 3DR is a direct insult. Chris is a better all-around artist than either of us probably ever will be. I think you and I take pride in our character work, but Chris can do everything from characters to environments including concepts exceptionally. His environment work, especially, blows away anything you or I could do in the same amount of time.
So the next time you want to blow your own trumpet on a public forum, keep it out of other peoples faces.
PS, for those on the forums here, Jesse and I have gotten into a forum debate before on the BloodRayne forums and he ran off and had the moderators delete the thread. Either stand behind what you say or apologize for it. Dont be such an arrogant person.
First, Jesse, your character work is really looking good. Youve improved immensely since you started at TRI. Seriously, I mean it.
However, your attitude is still a little poseur...
[ QUOTE ]
It was a collab between the game designer and art director of BR1. Yeah, I said the game designer and art director. Yeah, they're working on Duke Forever now. I guess 3D Realms is pretty easy to get into.
[/ QUOTE ]
Was that really necessary?
How bout an anecdote, Jesse? Remember when I told you I was leaving TRI to go to 3DR? You told me, Cool, I know some guys there. I said something like Wow, I just met them during the job interview, but who do you know?
To which you replied something to the effect, Well I dont really know their real names, but I know their online handles. Oh really. Then you didnt *know anyone* from 3DR, you were just a fanboy. Why did you start with such a front? Because you were a poseur then and you still act like one.
As for 3DR, presently I am far happier here than I ever was at TRI for numerous reasons. Some of which would be too unprofessional for me to list here and many of which I cant talk about due to the secrecy surrounding DNF. Youd rather be in my place, Jesse. Ill have to leave it at that.
Back to you, Jesse:
[ QUOTE ]
The game designer was a character artist on Nocturne and Blair Witch 1. Rayne, in those games, was named 'Svetlana', and she was one of his characters. So when BloodRayne came around, and was redesigned, he wanted to personally build her since he was pretty attached to her character.
[/ QUOTE ]
Jesus Christ. At least get your facts straight when talking about someone especially if youre belittling them behind their back.
The very first Svetlana concept originated from Drew Haworth. I did a revision in pencil. Aside from a texture modification by Mike Porter, Dan Borth built and textured the Svetlana that went into the game. Dan added the arm blades and the final version hardly resembled the concepts, if at all. So a lot of hands went into the design and overall, I had hardly anything to do with it.
For BloodRayne, Chris DeSimone did the bulk of the early concept for Rayne herself. Of course, we ended up using Feng Zhus awesome concept, and Chris DeSimone built and textured her. Once again, I didnt have much to do with the look of that character.
If youre going to make snide remarks about me on a public forum at least go to my site at www.3dprofessional.com and reference something I actually did.
That isnt a slight on Chris BR model either. In the comparison shot between Chris and your Rayne, there are elements that I like better on both. Though I like the proportions of your BRs body better, I think your face looks like an alien or cartoon. Maybe thats intentional, but to me it looks like you were going for realistic, but missed just a little bit. I also prefer the paler skin tone as it ties more to the vampiric nature of Rayne.
Regardless, you posting the comparison shot followed by your jab about easy hire at 3DR is a direct insult. Chris is a better all-around artist than either of us probably ever will be. I think you and I take pride in our character work, but Chris can do everything from characters to environments including concepts exceptionally. His environment work, especially, blows away anything you or I could do in the same amount of time.
So the next time you want to blow your own trumpet on a public forum, keep it out of other peoples faces.
PS, for those on the forums here, Jesse and I have gotten into a forum debate before on the BloodRayne forums and he ran off and had the moderators delete the thread. Either stand behind what you say or apologize for it. Dont be such an arrogant person.
This discussion has been closed.
Replies
I would hardly describe what he said as "stroking his dick," but I agree a professional should remain proffessional even on the internet.
After all, saying we were never going to be able to produce a better product than BloodRayne 1 because we didn't have the artistic abilities can make anyone's steam engine crank.
I felt it was time to get the thread deleted when a 'mysterious poster' created an account and began to really let us have it, me in particular. Something that is far from professional.
Either way, this is all I'm saying on this subject simply because it's a personal issue.
The guys from 3DR that I know are RedChurch and RockemSockem. I know them from here, where real names are optional.
And, fo ryour information, I don't think I'd want to be in your place, simply because I enjoy making games that get released in a decent amount of time. What have you guys done now? Started from scratch again because of HL2?
You're both doing a fairly good job of keeping this civil (more than most, anyway) however I feel swearwords are unneccessary and will just incite anger and flaming, so I'm going to edit those out now.
Thanks,
MoP
... i dont get it
Seriously, Jesse. You should word your statements a bit better as they do come across very bitter and biting.
I believe the reason Joe got pissed at the one that was removed was because you had said something derogatory and inflammatory to begin with, but it is no longer up and no one can read it. So i feel i should step in and make sure there is no revisionist history taking place when referring to it.
Furthermore I think that you are all very good artists. I remember seeing Jesse's art tests when he was trying to get in at TRI and he has improved greatly, but he's attitude towards his peers is in need of adjustment.
I honestly don't know why it is that you regard Joe and Chris with such contempt. I think it may have something to do with some residual resentment towards Chris for turning down your initial applications for TRI employ and later for Bloodrayne.
Honestly, Chris DeSimon is one of, if not THE best artists I have ever had the pleasure of collaborating with. Joe is also an exceptional artist. It is sad to me that because you are so unable to get past whatever it is that you have against them that you will not know what good allies they are in the trenches.
I think you should maybe take a step back, swallow your pride and apologize for the remarks you've made.
The BR1 Rayne was a fantastic piece of game art especially considering the restraints of the first BR1 engine and the fact that it wasn't concepted or built until very nearly the end of that project when time was of the essence.
I love the Dark Rayne you made Jesse, I liked the standard BR2 Rayne as well.
You have to admit that the restraints for character creation in BR2 were not as difficult as they were on the first one. More polys, better normals tech, better spec tech, better alpha tech and better bone tech all contribute to the advances made on the second gen character and her second gen engine. So to compare them in terms of better art is the wrong way to compare them (not to mention highly speculative), what should be at issue is the fact that look "We could only do this much with what we had then and it looked great, but now the engine has evolved far enough that we can do even more"
No one is saying you are a bad artist, you obviously are not, but when you make statements the way you have made them, you're personality and art become suspect.
Attacking 3dRealms' time to get a game out, while cute, is also neither a mature nor relative retort.
That is really all I have to say on this subject...hopefully we can all be mature adults about this and find some way to respect one another for what they do. I know that you, Jesse, have a home here at polycount and countless people will come to your defense, so i am coming in to say:
I was there from the beginning, I know the score, I know where the bodies are buried so be careful what facts get mixed up and where so that those skeletons do not get unearthed.
- shannon
... i dont get it "
me neither
/me waves
Remember me? I did the Bridge!
I will apoligize for things that I have said that were out of line, and anything I've said about Chris, because, quite frankly, I don't know where that came from, all I know is that somewhere along the way, he got mixed up in my personal feelings. That is wrong and I'll correct that. I can admit to that.
My bitterness for Joe came from that topic we had talked about. Nothing more. I looked up to him when he was here, but as soon as he said those remarks about 'riding the success of BR1', and the 'lack of ability' comment, that's where I drew the line, especially since it was such a broad comment and included everyone working here at the time.
I do admit that my typing can be rather... cold-hearted, and I recognize that as a persoanl flaw, though, it takes a whole lot to set me off as I'm a very mellow guy.
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My bitterness for Joe came from that topic we had talked about. Nothing more. I looked up to him when he was here, but as soon as he said those remarks about 'riding the success of BR1', and the 'lack of ability' comment, that's where I drew the line, especially since it was such a broad comment and included everyone working here at the time.
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Jesse, I would love to see where I said that. I try to make it a point to avoid sweeping generalizations like that exactly for reasons like your resentment here. I really think you are confusing me with the anonymous poster from that deleted thread on the BR forums so long ago.
Though opinionated, I try my damnedest to be professional. Which brings me to this arguably less professional thread...
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Honestly, why are you bringing this to Polycount Joe? Regardless of who's wrong this type of shit can be discuess through e-mails directly to Jesse.
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I was brought into the public domain on *these* forums by Jesse when he spoke about me on his thread here:
http://boards.polycount.net/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1450&an=0&page=0#1450
Why didn't I privately email him? Because he unprofessionally and publicly slandered me. If I let it go, or privately email him, that doesn't address all the people out there that read his post and have a completly misinformed and negative assumption based on the words of someone that personally dislikes me. I have a right to publicly defend myself.
If people get a negative assumption based on something I *actually* say or do...or if they don't like my art after *actually* seeing it then that's fine with me. Jesse presented neither. I'm presenting the material for people to make up their own minds. *That* is why I am posting here.
So is that truly unprofessional on the lowest level?
Overall, though, thank you for your last post, Jesse. I don't care if you don't like me. And, though I think it's in poor form, I don't even mind if you bad mouth my stuff...as long as you give real examples of my stuff please. I'm secure enough with my skills to know my art is good and most people dig it. Just as I recognize and publicly commented that your art is good. Just keep the professional and personal comments clear in their intentions. And if you can't do that, just refrain from comments about individuals.
Hi, SjetvsKerrigan. Are you Cliff or Xavier? Of course I remember you.
Ikraan - DNF is done! Just kidding!!!!! You know I can't talk about it...wish I could
And honestly, about the thread that set me off, as I've said in the other forum:
"well, either you've forgotten it, or I'm remembering somthing that never happened, but either way, we both feel the other is the one with the bad memory.
The only thing I can say in my defense is that there are other people that I showed the thread to that remember it. So either they share the same faulty memory that I have or you've just forgotten about it."
I cannot back up my statement about such a thread existing because it was deleted off the server. It was that bad. The only thing that I have that reassures me I'm not going crazy is my girlfriend, who read the thread, Thor, who deleted it, and some other forum members that posted in there.
There's a bit of talk about being "professional" here. The most professional way to handle this is to keep quiet and move on. It's not the right way, just the correct way. Two people slamming eachother on a messageboard are both unprofessional.
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I'm with him.
Frank the Avenger
The original issue in question was addressed publically in these forums, and now that it has been redressed in the same forum I would like to make a plea that any further discussion of the matter happen in private. And I hope that the particular circumstances that brought you, Joe and Shannon, to these forums, does not prevent you from sharing your artwork.
Especially Mr. Wampole--I would really appreciate it if you would be so kind as to post a graphical version of BloodRayne's original character evolution as you described in your post, if you still have some of those relevant images around (like your pencil redesign)... I was thrilled to find the alternate style model on your personal website. Maybe it's just me, but I'm always a sucker for Post Mortems, 'the making of', and art books devoted to the development of games, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be keen on seeing an "evolution of Svetlana to BloodRayne" style post. Just a humble request.
I will be closing this thread because these forums exist for the art: personal drama is in all too ready a supply on the internet