The welfare state
polycounter lvl 18
I'm writing this in respnse to some comments about people on welfare I saw on the http://boards.polycount.net/showflat.php...;gonew=1#UNREAD thread. Mainly Irritants comment "I got to see the how the "welfare state" worked".
I want to share some thoughts with you about social sevice programs in the US. First a little background on me so you know where all this is coming from. I'm a single father of three young children. I work at Indiana University doing tech support for students faculty and staff. A little over 3 years ago the mother of my children left me. As a single parent I didn't make enough to afford daycare and pay the rent. I applied for a childcare subsidy program. Now my daycare expences are paid for. This sounds good but it has a major drawback. For my family size, if I make over $22,000 a year i lose all subsidies. Yes I make under 22,000 a year. The pay rate in Bloomington is awful:p Here comes the fun part, I have had to turn down jobs where my gross pay would be 23,000-25,000 dollars because I wouldn't be able to afford daycare working at them. My daycare expences per year would be $15,600 . So even before taxes that would leave me with very little to live on. Unfortunately this isn't the only program that I am involved with, but it's pretty typical of of them all. I seem to get penalized for trying to save money or trying to better my situation. Why aren't these programs stepped at all? It seems to be financially irresponsible to have these programs and not have a way to ween the participants off of them. would it be better for the government to pay $300 a week for daycare or pay $150. that answer seems obvious to me but it doesn't work that way.
Thankfully I'll be off these programs in a year. A wonderful woman found me and wants to marry me. With our combined incomes we should be able to make it easily. I also can finally take a higher paying job then. This however shouldn't be the only way one can get off these programs. The welfare to work program has been in effect for many years now but the types of jobs that they help people find are all minimum wage and not enough to get people back on thier feet. There is no job training or education offered at all with these. Comment, rant of flame away. Thanks for taking the time to listen to my disorganised ramblings.
I want to share some thoughts with you about social sevice programs in the US. First a little background on me so you know where all this is coming from. I'm a single father of three young children. I work at Indiana University doing tech support for students faculty and staff. A little over 3 years ago the mother of my children left me. As a single parent I didn't make enough to afford daycare and pay the rent. I applied for a childcare subsidy program. Now my daycare expences are paid for. This sounds good but it has a major drawback. For my family size, if I make over $22,000 a year i lose all subsidies. Yes I make under 22,000 a year. The pay rate in Bloomington is awful:p Here comes the fun part, I have had to turn down jobs where my gross pay would be 23,000-25,000 dollars because I wouldn't be able to afford daycare working at them. My daycare expences per year would be $15,600 . So even before taxes that would leave me with very little to live on. Unfortunately this isn't the only program that I am involved with, but it's pretty typical of of them all. I seem to get penalized for trying to save money or trying to better my situation. Why aren't these programs stepped at all? It seems to be financially irresponsible to have these programs and not have a way to ween the participants off of them. would it be better for the government to pay $300 a week for daycare or pay $150. that answer seems obvious to me but it doesn't work that way.
Thankfully I'll be off these programs in a year. A wonderful woman found me and wants to marry me. With our combined incomes we should be able to make it easily. I also can finally take a higher paying job then. This however shouldn't be the only way one can get off these programs. The welfare to work program has been in effect for many years now but the types of jobs that they help people find are all minimum wage and not enough to get people back on thier feet. There is no job training or education offered at all with these. Comment, rant of flame away. Thanks for taking the time to listen to my disorganised ramblings.
Replies
Remember, a woman's place is in the home taking care of the kids. Unless she's a single mom, then she should get off of her lazy ass and go to work.
The system has failed.
There is nothing wrong having a welfare program, and the scenario that Techsmith has lived through is a good example. He should be commended for his efforts raising 3 children alone, and he's obviously a case where the system has worked, keeping him afloat until he could better his life.
As Elysium said, you also have the people using their welfare money to buy liquor, drugs, etc, and having more babies so they can get larger checks, and nothing is ever done about it.
I think my point might have been missed in my fairly vitriolic original post. I'm not advocating the abolition of welfare. I'm advocating the reform of it.
funny how you spend years paying taxes/national insurance then soon as you try and claim stuff back you get hassled by the scum who rule our country.
Some of us get prickly when we see abuse, like Ely seen, I can count on both hands direct and indirect relatives who are currently abusing the system whether it is welfare or workers comp or something and my wife can do the same.
I don't think either school wants people to hurt who are trying, it just needs reform.
Remember, a woman's place is in the home taking care of the kids. Unless she's a single mom, then she should get off of her lazy ass and go to work.
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I do not agree with you...I can't stand children. I absolutely hate housework.
Back to the subject: I think a welfare program is very important. There are always people who manage to abuse the system, but there are much more people who really need it. I think it would be great to offer some kind of job training or education aswell, but not everyone will be able to work (because of poor physical or mental health for instance).
We do need a serious reform of many of our nations social services. From social security, to welfare, to government education assistance (grants, etc).
I was unemployed for 2 periods of around 3 months within a 1 year timespan. For those total 6-7 months of unemployment that year, I only filed for 2 weeks worth of unemployment. I used my limited savings to get by, as I've always been one of those "get by on my own steam" kinda guys. Impressed by my own meager self-reliance.
Unfortunatly some of my more conservative compatriots feel that everybody should be that same way, or they can starve to death. Darwinism they say.
I knew a family who's entire income was derived soley from the government. The father got Social Security (he was a senior) the mother got welfare AND disability ( she was overweight to the point of not being able to work ). They had lived off government funds for nearly 15 years when I met and dated thier daughter.
Dad died the day I was to meet him, and after that they couldnt afford to live since his Soc-Sec checks stopped coming. So they moved to California and dropped thier daughter in my lap saying "Honey, your 17 and I cant afford to care for you, so I hope your boyfriend makes a good living, bye!"
I ended up living with her for nearly 3 years, and the entire time she was unable to maintain a job or be responsible AT all. Now this may have been because she was 17, but I was 17 when I moved out on my own, so...thats not a valid excuse. I think its because her parental figures never really worked a day of her life, and so she never developed any sort of work ethic. She would quit a job just because she didn't feel like taking the bus to get there one day. She'd spend the rent(when she had it) on rental movies, booze and smokes. Sometimes Pot. Total lack of care for personal responsibility, and I knew a good number of her friends and many operated with the same mind-set. Why work when the government or friends will care for me?
When I finally got fed up and dumped her, she was forced to maintain a job, whether she liked it or not. Forced to pay rent. To buy her own food. TO budget her limited resources. Until many people are FORCED into self reliance, they will continue to abuse whatever support they can get. Thats why mother birds PUSH thier babies out of the nest. We need to offer a helping hand, but when the time comes we've gotta push these people out of the nest, and they at that point need to fly or fall.
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the top of the tree, not the bottom. I suppose at some point it just comes down to whose side you are on.
The very southern tip of texas was very strange to me. I couldnt and still cant get over the fact that there are generations of families that somehow believe that the extent of their lives is to:
1. get pregnant/someone pregnant at an early age
2. get on welfare to pay for their mistake babies
3. have even more kids to get even more welfare
And thats it. Thats the extent of someones life and Im being serious. And in a situation like that its very tough for a child to break out of it when the parents dont set an example, in fact they encourage it. Why ENCOURAGE your kids to ruin their lives by having kids of their own at an early age just so they dont have to work because the govt can pay for their livelihood?
Education is what is definitely needed for these situations, and I agree that ultimately its that actual push that people need in order to break away from these self-destructive cycles. I believe that the welfare system works if people use it how it was meant to be used and not use it as a profession.
Kudos to you techsmith. It takes a lot to work and care for a family with minimal government assistance. I think of how my mom struggles to pay bills with her meager job vs her worthless welfare siblings now after reading your post.
And even if they did, its none of your damn business.
And education is not an option for everyone. Some people just want to have a job , but in some parts there are not many jobs , so claiming benefits is the only option.
You make it sound like the only 'bad' people out there are on welfare.
I grew up in an area where the government closed down most of the manfacturing sector and so a whole generation grew up relying on state handouts. THAT is a difficult cycle to break, because governments subsequently decided to ignore whole areas of the country, feeling its easier to let people claim benefits than to invest in their future with real jobs.
All am saying is that its a bit simplistic to blame these people when the reason things turned out this have a lot to do with economic policy over several generations as much as individual laziness.
Its just so insulting to say that all people who claim welfare drink and smoke and generally waste their money.
And even if they did, its none of your damn business.
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Some of us feel otherwise, since we're paying for them to do so. I for one would rather choose whose life I subsidize, and how.
Frank the Avenger
I agree with Ruz, I am more outraged by the abuse that goes on at the top of the food chain as opposed to the bottom.
I disagree. Public school is free. Those who take advantage of that, generally have a better shot than those who don't.
The biggest problem that I have seen, at least in my neck of the skyscapers, is that there is a culture that has no emphasis on it, even FROWNS on it. It's a horrible cycle, that is only getting worse.
As far as college goes, there are a number of policies that are in place that are fukt. I grew up very poor. My father had a failed business right around the time I graduated HS, and I was able to get good enough grades to get a partial scholarship, and get student loans and grants to cover the rest. My parents could not contribute a red cent, as they were barely staying afloat. The system was decent then(mid 80's). Then along come the 90's, politcal correctness, affirmative action, and the system now pays more attention to the color of your skin than it does your qualifications. My wife's sister, valedictorian of her class, 4.0 GPA, applied to 20 schools, and was only offered one, ONE, partial scholarship. Her friend, who happened to be a minority, had a C average, applied to many of the same schools was offered multiple full scholarships. The deck was stacked against her, to be sure. But you know what? She was able to get student loans, which ANYONE can get, btw, graduated Virginia Tech with honors, and now has a high paying government job.
So I don't want to here that education is not an option, because that is utter BS, and one of the biggest problems I see with the "enabling" that goes on with the democrats who pander to the race card, and to the poor, not to help them, but to win their votes. Because they aren't helping them. They are creating a culture that has become "reliant", and can't stand for themselves.
It wouldn't be that difficult to fix welfare. The problem is, certain people don't want it fixed.
That would sound more persuasive as an argument if you actually used 'hear' rather than 'here'.( joke)
Irritant, to be serious I meant that not everyone has the brains or even wants to go to college . some people enjoy working in a regular job rather than taking the college/further education route.
Anyway Its an old 'tory' policy to send everyone to college or put them on training schemes to make the unemployment figures look repsectable.
what is really needed is proper decent paying jobs but since manufacturing in still in decline , its just not going to happen any time soon and sending people to study at college for jobs that are just not there 'is' pure bullshit.
And so is making people work in crappy low paid jobs with no union represention.( ranting now)
It wouldn't be that difficult to fix welfare. The problem is, certain people don't want it fixed.
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I would just love to hear your quick and easy solution to fixing welfare...
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It wouldn't be that difficult to fix welfare. The problem is, certain people don't want it fixed.
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I would just love to hear your quick and easy solution to fixing welfare...
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for starters...
1. Enforcement of existing limitations, restrictions, and reqirements. In a place like Baltimore, doing that would possibly alieniate those in power's voting base, so they don't do it.
2. Penalize those who continue to have children once on welfare, or at least don't reward them.
3. Require stronger supervision of recipients, and possibly provide more incentive for them to get off of welfare. Maybe create a better system in which welfare recipients are required to learn a trade, through a free state sponsored trade school.
4. Require recipients to provide receipts showing what they purchasing. Small price to pay for getting free money.
Just some ideas. Maybe some of this is already in place in some areas, but it's clear that little is ever enforced. I had a roomate that somehow managed to get unemployement for a year(it's only supposed to be for 6 months in MD), without even looking for a job. He just would look in the classified, write down some names, and mail it in. No enforcement of existing regulations.
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Require stronger supervision of recipients, and possibly provide more incentive for them to get off of welfare. Maybe create a better system in which welfare recipients are required to learn a trade, through a free state sponsored trade school.
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Why should MY taxes go to pay for a state sponsored trade school?!?!? Fucking liberal.
I certainly would not be for something that is going to increase taxes. I'm saying allocate the money that would be saved by getting people OFF of welfare into something more productive then the current system of permanent welfare situations.
As far as the children, that is a little more dicey. But parents can be declared unfit and the child can be placed somewhere that would most certainly be a better environment. Hell even an orphanage would be much better than living in some of the situations I've seen in Baltimore and similar cities.
The reality of it is, there are no easy answers and there is no easy fix. Your "solution" of cutting benefits outright is only going to lead to a higher crime rate. Welfare is a culture unto itself. It would take years and generations to fix the system.
'The dole is my shepherd I shall not work'
Wasn't a big fan of his, but that one was quite funny
I have had days where there was literally nothing to eat at my house because we didn't have the money. I'm not trying to make anyone feel sorry for me, because I grew up fine despite these facts, I am just trying to point something out: don't tell me that the majority of people on welfare are just leeches or something, because I take that as a direct insult to my mom, who is very hard-working.
My mom does not have more babies to get larger welfare checks, either, and it really pisses me off when someone that has never been in a situation like that thinks that they have all of the answers. You don't know what it is like to be hungry and wish you had some food, and how embarassing it is besides.
There are certainly problems with the welfare system, but don't go insulting people that are on it just because you have never experienced it, or you "have seen people on it." If people weren't so damned greedy they wouldn't mind giving some of their money to helping other people out.
Ian I men no insult to your mother with this post. We grew up in the same situation, and now I'm in a simalar situation. Unfortunately the above post reflects what's going on in my town.
A system needs to be devloped to track the people that abuse the system and facilitate those that do not. Those basically are the two things I have learned from this thread.
The welfare system isn't only corrupted, it's accually a difficult problem to solve cuz we have it in Canada, and I have heard my Euro friends complaining about this too.
-R
Unfortunatly some of my more conservative compatriots feel that everybody should be that same way, or they can starve to death. Darwinism they say.
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This is a ridiculous attitude to have. I know it's not your personal sentiment, but I'm going to address it anyway, as I know there are many people who share this opinion. The truth is, NO ONE is entirely self-reliant; we all spend the first two decades of our lives sucking from the proverbial teat. Unfortunately, due to their financial situation, some people receive much less sustenance and support during this period of their life, which makes it harder for them to progress (it's a cycle that perpetuates itself).
Furthermore, no one in this country is going to "starve to death." Any person with a will to live (and who cares for the survival of their family) will resort to robbing a liquor store, selling drugs, or partaking in any other illegal activity, rather than letting themselves and their families starve to death.
And what happens then? Rather than paying to help support the family, the state will be paying to keep the children in protective custody; to pay for the court proceedings; to pay for their meals and for correctional officers to watch them behind bars; to pay for the already over-crowded and expanding prison facilities; etcetera. This ends up being MUCH more of a burden on the system, but it's the sort of thing that can happen when you back someone into a corner like that.
Personally, in my mid 20's, I lost my job with General Electric due to downsizing, last hire, first fire, as they say. I spent four months on unemployment, while searching for a job, eating Happy Meals, budgeting every cent until I got back on my feet.
So yeah, I've been there. In fact, in those days I was pretty convinced that the system worked. Then I moved to Baltimore. I had no idea just how naive I had been.
Thats funny, because it seemed to me he was stating how it was holding him back.. In fact I have a friend who had a same situation. She got out of a abusive relationship, and has been working herself up in status. For a bit, when she was between jobs, she was sorely broke. She finally found a new GREAT job. But it wouldn't start for a month, and she still had all the expenses and rent.
Welfare wouldn't help her because even though the new job hadn't started yet, it was above their maximum support leverage.
Also, what of Welfare recipients that do have a skill (like Techsmith)? I have read of a few IT people who have been on welfare since all the outsourcing and competition. Do we send them back to college for a new degree? Do we send them to janitor schools? What if they are over 40 where the prospects to reentering the job market under a different setting get harder and harder?
Really, I think trying to imply that all welfare recipients are undereducated is dangerous in itself. (There have been a few posts implying this).
Why cant we help subsidize them to be what they need? Like what if they would be a better Doctor than a Janitor (and alternatively those who want to be Janitors)? How can we simply state they can "work" themselves up from there a(Janitor) to b(Doctor)? That seems the worst way to dehumanize what welfare recipients need.
One last thing, It seems that post welfare users come out two ways. Either fiscally conservative or liberal. No middle ground. Wonder why that is? Would you say you at least come out more socially liberal seeing what ideas of unplanned parenthood cost society? (If so for those then socially liberal but economically conservative, why aren't you Libertarian vs Republican?)
Its just so insulting to say that all people who claim welfare drink and smoke and generally waste their money.
And even if they did, its none of your damn business.
And education is not an option for everyone. Some people just want to have a job , but in some parts there are not many jobs , so claiming benefits is the only option.
You make it sound like the only 'bad' people out there are on welfare.
I grew up in an area where the government closed down most of the manfacturing sector and so a whole generation grew up relying on state handouts. THAT is a difficult cycle to break, because governments subsequently decided to ignore whole areas of the country, feeling its easier to let people claim benefits than to invest in their future with real jobs.
All am saying is that its a bit simplistic to blame these people when the reason things turned out this have a lot to do with economic policy over several generations as much as individual laziness.
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People do have a choice to follow through with an education or not. I came from a poor background also and i chose not to stay in public schooling because the enviroment was terrible. Using a school year to prepare for standardized tests and the promise of getting into a universtity by affirmative action is no way to go. I knew i could do better if i really wanted it and i did. I found my way to a public academic magnet school where i had a blast. Best 4 years of my life.
However i'm not going to disagree with you over the rest of the post. The lazyness problem i mentioned was a mainstay that the economy in that area kind of dealt with. However after NAFTA things quickly fell apart. Southtexas has one of the largest unemployment rates in the country. Another interesting fact is that brownsville is the largest city in the valley with over 2 million people living there, but it doesnt exaclty count as a statistic either bacause half of that population is illegal. Many companies that provided benefits closed up shop and relocated south of the border, leaving many hundreds of people jobless. To add insult to injury big corporations roll into town and shut down mom and pop stores to make super mega walmarts and targets and mcdonalds and whatever that provide less money and no benefits. Add with the illegals problem, well they hear that the govt can take care of their broke asses if there child goes to school here, or better yet if they stay here with relatives or a spouse or whoever and then they can have kids here and earn even more govt income. Wait wait, how about doing all that, but then getting a job so that they get additional income on the side, you know under the table, and tax free while still getting welfare aid? it's hard to compete against that and while it is very difficult to just break away from all of that it can be done.
I really am very partial about people who use welfare, and i do care about how they use it also, because people that work shit jobs also pay for someone else's unproductiveness. My mom is in techsmiths situation everyday, and she goes ahead and earns her min wage and gets a LITTLE reprieve from the govt just so my aunt can:
1: not work
2: hang out with her friends buying stuff with govt money
3: reflecting those values to her kids?
You cant bite the hand that feeds you in that instance, meaning that you can't exaclty get pissy witth the govt even though they are helping you get back on your feet, but the methods that they go about doing things can be done a WHOLE lot better. Monitoring the adverse affects of the govt's actions would help out a lot in a perfect world. But even then in situations like this its not one sided and the people on the recieving end have to make changes as well.
its a very hard and monumental task to fully understand and take every facet of a particular problem into account from a larger scale, all that can be asked from the individual at the least is that that person has enough constitution to change and want to change and make that change, hopefully for the better
1. If you have worked for more than 2 years consecutively, and lose your job through no fault of you own (like company goes bust, downsizing, not because you got sacked for being shit or lazy) and you get no redundancy:
Your first months unemployment/jobseekers should be TRIPLE the normal rate.
Your second months should be double the normal rate.
My reasoning is that you are not stupid or lazy, and will likely get another job quite quickly. You probably wont be a long term drain, so the extra money will allow you to survive and meet any outstanding commitments.
2. When you do get a job, you get an extra one off payment. This is to help you prepare for the new job, get clothes etc. Just enough to tide you over, plus it could be seen as a reward "Good boy, you GOT A JOB! You are no longer a drain on the system".
Those are sketchy, but would reward the good people and shouldnt drain the system. I'l have a think about the other end of the system.
I must say, although the system fails in many countries, and least these countries have a system of some sort to try and help people.
Bush won, arguably, because of his moral standings. However, where are the morals in thousands of dead Iraqi civilians? Stem cells are bad because they are killing a potential human life, whereas we can just let the people that are already here suffer in poverty because they are lazy and abuse the system? Your taxes are paying for killing more than they are paying for the welfare of the people within your own country.
I agree, there should be reform to welfare, but so far no one has been willing to set down the money for a serious reform effort, and I doubt it will come any time soon. Our debt continues to spiral deeper and deeper into the hole, and we are still cutting taxes. If no one is willing to pay for our country, expect bad things to happen.
IanSnyder, I find it utterly fascinating how every innocent person killed by Iraqi Muslim nutcases is being chalked up under U.S. kill score.
Iraqi death toll: Frags
United States: 100,000 plus
Iraq sucide/Carbombs zero