Advice with secondary forms

DustyShinigami

Hi

I need some advice from fellow character artists. One aspect I've not had enough practise with and that I'm struggling with is the mid-frequency/secondary forms. For the most part, I understand what they are. The issue I'm having is a breakup layer/pass. I'm not sure if other artists incorporate it as well...? I'm presuming so. I did a mentorship with Henning Sanden from FlippedNormals and he showed me his approach to doing it. However, I'm not confident I'm going about it correctly. I could be wrong, but because he comes from a VFX background, maybe he's been overcomplicating things...? Especially as I'm aiming for the games industry. I went back through Laura Gallagher's videos on Outgang, but she only briefly touches on it, sadly. But it seems more simplified...?


One tip I did take away from a FlippedNormals video on the topic is to blur a reference image and make it black and white in order to disguise all the distractions. For the Doom Hell Knight I'm working on, I've gone and done that.

Originals:


Blurred:


And of course I've been attempting it on a Layer. I was also provided with a demonstration from Henning...


I just always feel conflicted. That I'm not quite 'getting it'...? I know that there needs to be breakup and directionality, but feel that something is 'off'. Or that I'm perhaps not capturing some of the secondary forms into the breakup layer...? Or can/should those be done afterwards? After the directionality? I've been trying to do this attempt asymmetrically as well.


This is one of my earlier attempts, which looks wrong, flat, and is too soft.

Any advice/insight would be super appreciated. Thanks.

Eric Chadwick

I think it would help to examine more photographic reference of human musculature, and learning more about the underlying anatomical structures.

Quick web search...

Noren

It looks a bit like you are scratching relatively even valleys of the same depth into your main forms instead of getting the look of actual volumes meeting below the skin. Don't be afraid to leave your main forms were necessary as long as they still read correctly. An area were two muscles meet can be sharp(ish), but the curvature should be fairly continuous across the muscle (at least for those smaller ones) if you know what I mean. However, in the reference, there aren't that many sharp secondary forms to begin with. That's assuming we are talking about the smaller muscle and fat lumps and not details like scratches or folds.

DustyShinigami

Eric Chadwick said:

I think it would help to examine more photographic reference of human musculature, and learning more about the underlying anatomical structures.

Quick web search...

Oh, I know. However, using the official model and looking at the reference images I have, there are some additional shapes in there as well. I did manage to speak to Jason Martin, the original artist, and he mentioned how with creatures, so long as it's based in reality and based on some form of real anatomy, you can fudge it a bit to make something look cool. I kinda mixed in shapes I could see from the Doom Eternal version of the Hell Knight along with the one from Doom 2016.

DustyShinigami

Noren said:

It looks a bit like you are scratching relatively even valleys of the same depth into your main forms instead of getting the look of actual volumes meeting below the skin. Don't be afraid to leave your main forms were necessary as long as they still read correctly. An area were two muscles meet can be sharp(ish), but the curvature should be fairly continuous across the muscle (at least for those smaller ones) if you know what I mean. However, in the reference, there aren't that many sharp secondary forms to begin with. That's assuming we are talking about the smaller muscle and fat lumps and not details like scratches or folds.

Hmm. I see. So I need to add more variation of where forms rise and fall? Some folds, like on the backs of the arms, I have added, but on another layer, which I'll probably incorporate at some point. Scratches I'll likely save for the tertiary. Although I think I have been sketching in some lines with DamStandard.

I attached the reference above from the version in Doom 2016, which has some additional shapes in there, too.

Noren

Yes, more variations (e.g. wider in one spot and more pinched in another), but I was mainly referring to the "cross section" so to speak.

DustyShinigami

Noren said:

Yes, more variations (e.g. wider in one spot and more pinched in another), but I was mainly referring to the "cross section" so to speak.

Sorry, could you paintover where you mean exactly? I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'cross section'. Thanks.

Noren

I was exaggerating, of course, but something like this:



Doesn't need to be actual anatomy, just needs to read like it could be. I took the screenshot as a starting point and smudged it a bit, without trying to replicate the reference model, which is much softer overall (edit: In this area and regarding the secondary forms).

Additionally, I tried to introduce some more variance and to get the impression of some of the muscles going across each other instead of just forms sitting next to each other, which is the result of too even and broad valleys between and too little continuous curvature across the muscles (but I kept a flatter surface for the lat like one). Broader, flat valleys you'd normally find at bone ridges/attachments or tendons.
 

DustyShinigami

Noren said:

I was exaggerating, of course, but something like this:



Doesn't need to be actual anatomy, just needs to read like it could be. I took the screenshot as a starting point and smudged it a bit, without trying to replicate the reference model, which is much softer overall

Additionally, I tried to introduce some more variance and to get the impression of some of the muscles going across each other instead of just forms sitting next to each other, which is the result of too even and broad valleys between and too little continuous curvature across the muscles (but I kept a flatter surface for the lat like one). Broader, flat valleys you'd normally find at bone ridges/attachments or tendons.
 

Ahhh, I see what you mean. Thanks. I'll have another go soon and try implementing it. I'll post the WIP results after.