Good Quality LP from HP (Substance Md)

StepoKedur

Hi all!  This site was recommended to me a few weeks ago, only just got around to distilling my thoughts into a question, I hope someone can help.

Over the last couple of years I have been making models to go into a Star Wars Galaxies Emu server.  simple things, I used to use Tinkercad, pushing that through Blender and such.  Very basic and rough, but fun.

I've made a couple of basic things with 3DS Max too, but that lacks to me the beauty of using Substance Modeller's voxel system.  Feels so much like clay!

I've learned a lot over that time and have fallen in love with Substance Painter and Modeller.  Wonderful tools!  I push things through 3DS Max now.  

However I would ideally prefer to make a decent Low Poly of 3-4k quad (quads to help with the Substance Painter part and the 3-4k for the game itself ideally) with the High Poly being baked onto it in Painter.

Modeller (Beta) has had some damn good exporting additions over the last month or so, but is still wanting when it comes to lower poly counts.  

I'm ideally looking for something that keeps the shape of the model but doesn't distort it.  Again, in quads if possible.

The normal size of the High Polys - although not the highest in comparison to other models, is about 250-300k quads.  The textures I create tend to be 4096 UVs.

Bearing in mind I am...middling at best with 3DS and Blender, how can I get a decent LP from an HP that maintains the shape?  Any other stand alone software there than can do the job maybe?

Not sure how to post a pic here, but if needed I'm sure there is a way.

Thanks!

StepoKedur

Neox

i have no idea about modeller. but out of curiosity, what does a mesh exported from there look like?

StepoKedur

Just decimating the above model from Substance Md (Beta) voxels to OBJ formal.  250k quads...

Neox

i guess what i am asking is, can you show a wireframe of the output?

StepoKedur

Trying to get that up now old chap :P  Modeller is having an odd spat currently.  I asked if there was a hidden update to the beta in the last fortnight... so trying a 300k quad one.

StepoKedur

StepoKedur

Something janky is going on today with my exports at higher quality... I mentioned this in the Substance Discord.  However you get a gist of the wireframe there.  Not the best it has been though (3DS Max).  The Adaptive Topology and the Global Adaptivity see where the quads (or tris) need to be more heavily concentrated.  Here, around the buttons and the cup and coaster. 

Fabi_G

Hi! Based on this example, I think it should be fairly easy to trace its shapes with primitives in a modeling application. Doing this a few times, you might get more proficient with the application and do certain subjects there. Cleaner topology will certainly make UV-unwrapping more pleasant. Out of curiosity, how are you currently unwrapping and what do the UVs look like?

I get that a voxel modeler might be fun to use, you could still reserve that creation method for complex organic shapes?

From my view a big aspect of creating assets for real-time is breaking up complex designs into parts which can be easily re-used. This should speed up subsequent iterations and allows to quickly assemble new assets from the sub parts. Working that way also mean better re-use of textures.

You could look into some decimate modifiers do remove non-silhouette defining geometry, but yeah doing UVs will be less fun.

StepoKedur

Cheers   The UVs are really good, handled by Substance Painter.  

StepoKedur

StepoKedur

That's a previous iteration, larger low polys though.  I have simplified it slightly, as I'm able to modify the bump maps in Painter to mimic detail without pressing certain details into the clay in Modeller.

StepoKedur

Each component is also individual.  I can export as a group or merge them together pre export too.

StepoKedur

In fact, on the UV example above each component is an individual, as one can see from the baseboard/table.

StepoKedur

Decimate modifiers, whether Blender, 3DS (extra to what exists), or standalone programs is what I am after really currently.

jStins

Those UVs are not good. They may work okay for painting directly on the surface in painter, but they'd be a nightmare to work with anywhere else. A good UV layout will be easy to parse on its own, should have a logical arrangement of shells based on material type and large rectangular pieces should be straight and axis aligned. 

pior

Well, others have pretty much covered it in the replies above : by doing everything in a voxel sculpting app (which can indeed be quite fun) you're pretty much shooting yourself in the foot if your goal is to get to clean and efficient game assets from there.

Now there are indeed ways to convert what you have to ingame geo ; but these processes are way more involved and complex than what a beginner would imagine. And at the end of day you'll likely end up rebuilding things anyways.

Given all of the above, I think that learning basic polygon modeling techniques would be a much more efficient way to go at this. Or, if for some reason you are completely allergic to the concept of cutting/welding/manipulating verts/edges/faces, you could perhaps look at a CAD solution like MOI3D, Fusion360, or Plasticity ; with scene handling being done in Blender or 3DSMax perhaps. The learning curve isn't much steeper than sculpting and you'll get an output much, much closer to that of a game asset.

Another approach would consist of considering these voxel scenes as just a starting point, and getting used to a very efficient (but not automatic) retopo workflow to go from that to a regular game asset. Which goes back to the topic of mastering polygon modeling techniques first and foremost.

In short : just because you've found something fun that appears to be productive and puts you "in the zone", doesn't mean that it will save you much time in the end - especially if the end goal is to contribute asset to an MMO server. You'll be much better off studying the original assets from SW Galaxies, and building your props the way the artists did on the original game. And why not, keeping Substance Modeler for some initial "ideation sculpting" (... even though regular 2d sketching is always faster).

StepoKedur

I did progress a little further and saved some shots, I'll pass these over tomorrow/today (2am now and time travel confuses everything!)

StepoKedur

Hopefully I can add a PDF file here!

StepoKedur

There we go.  I put some more info and pics together, was chatting with a friend on Discord and compiled some parts here for ease.

Fabi_G

Hi! Maybe looking at the wiki-entry you get an idea what optimized UVs can look like.
Aside from a maximizing the space, some other aspects I would aim for:

- seams along edges where it makes sense, certainly at hard edges (if used to control the lowpolys shading)
- UVs straightened and aligned with pixel grid UVs where it makes sense (strips, grids), particularly at borders - to minimize aliasing artifacts
- re-using of space for similar/identical parts - smaller textures neccessary
- (personal preference) readable UV layout allowing to make adjustments in UV space 

Even when doing this for fun, progressing on the modeling side might unlock more options when creating content. You could start a thread documenting your progress and 3D assets.

kanga

The bake looks pretty bad in the pdf. Maybe not the quickest but the best would be to learn basic modeling, uv arrangement, retopology (constructing a lp version of the hp), baking a low from a high and texturing. Looking at the object it might even be more efficient to break the hp into bake sets. Have fun.