Modeling from Reference 1-1 an Art or a Craft?

Bozurk

Hi, well, just as the title/headline says. Does modeling as a game artist who follow the reference 1-1 and try to recreate it in 3D and make it as close to the reference as possible considered an Art or just a Craft? I remember one time I was watching BlenderBros videos where Ryu have said that Modeling is craft and it's not really an art. And I quote "Modeling something that already exists will gain you nothing. You will only learn to replicate and become better at it. You will get stuck at copying other people's work"

How many of you agree or disagree with this statement? As for me, I believe that modeling is craft and a skill that takes a long time to develop and needs a quite a lot of observational skills when copying from reference and noticing the details "unnoticeable" details and that also requires paying a lot of attention to what you're studying.

Klunk

Craft can be Art.
let me fix that quote for you....

"Painting/sculpting something that already exists will gain you nothing. You will only learn to replicate and become better at it. You will get stuck at copying reality"

so poor old leonardo, the Mona Lisa is mere craft

Bozurk

Klunk said:

Craft can be Art.
let me fix that quote for you....

"Painting/sculpting something that already exists will gain you nothing. You will only learn to replicate and become better at it. You will get stuck at copying reality"

so poor old leonardo, the Mona Lisa is mere craft

Well, I guess I should feel less harsh on myself after being considered of not being a "REAL" artist.

Neox

what is a "real" artist? this isn't called an industry for no reason. unless its your own product you will always only be contributing in parts to the final piece, which might be a piece of art tho.

i'd also consider myself an artisan rather than an artist, despite what the job title calls me.

Alex_J

in order to translate from the 2d concept to 3d you have to have at least some understanding of the fundamental principles of art.

but usually as a modeler you are not designing the art from scratch.

how much creative satisfaction you feel in your work just depends on your own perspective. Personally the absolute most creative fun job in game development I find is animation. But in animation you are not making the models at all, and most of the time the movement you would be copying from video or mocap. Still I find it's just really creatively satisfying.

Whatever labels people use is not important unless your main motivation is to impress other people. it can be satisfying to grow your skill in any job. You will get tired of any job if you do it too many hours a day. Since it cost nothing but a little time to try out all the different types of digital art, I think it's worthwhile to try everything and see what you like best if you have the time.

okidoki

I always took it for granted that  there has to be some craft in any art (even in everything what someone does).. and the artist at least try to master some (sometimes multiple)  crafts to a certain degree to make some melange of it to produce some beautyfull art.. So for me there is no mindless, fake, unreal or tedious art because if it would be so easy.. then everybody could do it be him/herself and nobody needs to buy anything to make their home or whatever beautyfull.
( Of course some people can't even make a simple sandwich.. and some seems to have used some magic to make them..  )

Eric Chadwick

Game art is a commodity, you get paid to make stuff for someone else. Lots of restrictions. It’s a craft.

Make art for you, on your own time. Carry a sketchbook, keep making the art you really like, for yourself. No restrictions! It’s art.

Bah-dum, tish!

poopipe

if you're being paid to make it for someone else you're an artisan

Neox

poopipe said:

if you're being paid to make it for someone else you're an artisan

that would make any artist back in the days of patrons an artisan as well

pior

... This thread is giving me 2010/2015 nostalgia, back when some 3D kids discovered the word "artisan" and started to have some big brain convos about it.

okidoki

Well.. there is some relation between art (dexterity, skill, ability, cleverness, expertness, craft, workmanship) and  artistry, artisan and even artistic.. the latest having some relation to gymnastic (sometimes someone needs this to not get injured )... So the question when which part of some activity is artistry and when it is artisan.. is.. some mix factor of them.. sometimes tedious and sometimes it is just wastage.. but at least someone can gain experience in everything.. or even better: earning some money with some boring job because someone is better or faster with it.. because one is able to do it  because of the knowledge and skill.

poopipe

Neox said:

poopipe said:

if you're being paid to make it for someone else you're an artisan

that would make any artist back in the days of patrons an artisan as well

yep - that chapel ceiling wasn't self expression and neither are all those portraits of rich italian merchants. 

gnoop

The perception to what's craft and what's art have changed a lot through centuries.   Whatever Leonardo did in 15 century  wouldn't even  be considered  an  art  if he would live nowadays.   He would be crazy  jobless hobbyist with his constantly missed deadlines.       Modern art market wouldn't even noticed him.        Still could be successful graphics programmer maybe  with his geometry skills .

Bozurk

So, in conclusion, Anything can be an art since it requires craftmanship anyways.

Bozurk

Eric Chadwick said:

Game art is a commodity, you get paid to make stuff for someone else. Lots of restrictions. It’s a craft.

Make art for you, on your own time. Carry a sketchbook, keep making the art you really like, for yourself. No restrictions! It’s art.

Bah-dum, tish!

That's a perfect response. Thank you

poopipe

gnoop said:

The perception to what's craft and what's art have changed a lot through centuries.   Whatever Leonardo did in 15 century  wouldn't even  be considered  an  art  if he would live nowadays.   He would be crazy  jobless hobbyist with his constantly missed deadlines.       Modern art market wouldn't even noticed him.        Still could be successful graphics programmer maybe  with his geometry skills .

not really,  iirc he got paid pretty well for at least a decent chunk of his life, as did michelangelo and most of the old masters you actually know about.
people like van-gogh who did work on spec rather than commissions tended not to do so well financially and would fit your description better I think.  
  
(disclaimer : it's been >25 years since i studied art history so i'm very fuzzy on the details)

NikhilR

I see game art for production as a craft, though having knowledge of art fundamentals and art history does make its pursuit feel more complete even if a studio doesn't encourage it. 
There are avenues to have the craft emphasize its artistic value and certainly satisfaction in having an audience acknowledge and respect this. 

sacboi

"Does modeling as a game artist who follow the reference 1-1 and try to recreate it in 3D and make it as close to the reference as possible considered an Art or just a Craft?"

The latter.

EDIT:

Specifically, Renaissance Masters were also referred too as a 'Master Craftsman or Tradesman' during their careers, since they were offered apprenticeships usually begun under guidance from, in turn a master of the given trade  i.e. Sculpture (bronze, marble) or Paint (fresco, wood panel)....etc.

gnoop

poopipe said:

gnoop said:

The perception to what's craft and what's art have changed a lot through centuries.   Whatever Leonardo did in 15 century  wouldn't even  be considered  an  art  if he would live nowadays.   He would be crazy  jobless hobbyist with his constantly missed deadlines.       Modern art market wouldn't even noticed him.        Still could be successful graphics programmer maybe  with his geometry skills .

not really,  iirc he got paid pretty well for at least a decent chunk of his life, as did michelangelo and most of the old masters you actually know about.
people like van-gogh who did work on spec rather than commissions tended not to do so well financially and would fit your description better I think.  
  
(disclaimer : it's been >25 years since i studied art history so i'm very fuzzy on the details)

Indeed they had been paid well enough  since that time their skills were unique and art they created  was sort of novelty almost 1k years after  the flourish of   antiquity  where they  found their source and inspiration.     Not that much now.   

 If you bring something like that  in modern gallery  a curator  would just shrug and ask you why.  What's the idea?  What does it mean?     Now it's all a context  first.    Not how good  the craftsmanship is.     The later is merely a small bonus. 

Shrike

Klunk said:

Craft can be Art.
let me fix that quote for you....

"Painting/sculpting something that already exists will gain you nothing. You will only learn to replicate and become better at it. You will get stuck at copying reality"

so poor old leonardo, the Mona Lisa is mere craft

I would define it as
If you don't bring in at least some of your artistic touch, then it's not art

Similar as you would say a person putting a paper over another artwork and tracing it exactly
Leonardo did definitely add a lot of his own touch into his paintings, and a painting always has a lot of artistic choices inevitably and a lot of abstraction.

I guess you can argue that the choice of software and workflow is also a significant artistic choice, on the other hand, it is also a technicality, as if the carpenter uses one tool or the other, I suppose this is debatable. 

I think depending on the artwork, choosing the subject is also artistry for sure, if we think about classical still life. You do replicate the still life as close as possible, however you bring a lot of artistry in choosing the composition and colors before you paint it, so you do make the model essentially.


The still life was the "look at my photorealism" of the time, but the execution and subjects do differ dramatically.

In 3D art, presentation and shading is definitely a big way to add your own touch even to close replications.

Alex_J

the definition of art is very nebuluos. If anybody wants to consider themselves an artist for virtually anything it would be impossible to prove that they were not in fact an artist.

I think  for the person making any important decision about what career or hobbies they would pursue, just focus on the verbs, not the nouns. In other words, what does the job mean that I will do every day. Who cares what people say about it, nobody agrees on anything and even people who do agree probably don't understand each other anyway.

poopipe

I was fine-art educated so to me it's not art unless it delivers a personal message and pretty much any creation that does that counts as art (sadly that includes nailing a banana to a wall). 

If we translate that to video games then the game director is the artist - the rest of us are helping. 

gnoop

poopipe said:

If we translate that to video games then the game director is the artist - the rest of us are helping. 

I am afraid  not even  the director in  common modern perception of art.    Until a game deliver a sort of political message maybe.  A manifest of  a sort.  But since it would  probably affect the sales rather negatively  and risky by its nature it's highly unlikely now with always rising  production costs.  

But who knows . the "true" art  gradually falls out of public attention . Nobody cares really.   It exists because of a mix of universities, state sponsored institutions  and china/ russia / gulf investors  who don't know where to put their always questionable  money to save them from their own regimes .      

Bitcoin news, space exploration, solar energy progress  etc  could change it  all   suddenly  or just gaming population will get retired with money

poopipe

Plenty of games (and films and other things) come with a message, sometimes its overtly political (this war of mine, halflife2, bioshock), sometimes it's more of a feeling (journey, gris), sometimes its just a story (life is strange, valiant hearts) and other times it's kojima. The nature of the message is irrelevant, as is how well it's delivered.. bad art still counts as art.

The strongest messages are always going to come from indies since there's less of an incentive to appeal to the lowest common denominator and the game director can express themselves more freely but thats common to all forms of media and has been the case forever 

Alex_J

so the black banana peels on my desk are art after all. i knew i was leaving them there for a reason