3ds Max CAT: Adding 'Skin' modifier after rigging causes bones in hand to go haywire

MancD

I've had this on two models now. I'm rather new to riggging and skinning but I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong here.

 Model was xformed before rigging and adding skin modifier. The model and geo is all zeroed out.

What is causing this issue? I'm working in Meters, could that be it? Is the hand geo insufficent? I'm at a complete loss.

I've not used any voxel or heatmapping.

Appreciate any help

Cheers

Eric Chadwick

Do any of the hand or arm bones have non 100% scale on them? Looks to me like the hand bones are inheriting scale from a parent somewhere in the hierarchy above them.

Also, which version of 3ds Max is this?

MancD

Hey thanks for the reply.

The hands are separate elements/objects. I've detached them checked the scale, it's at 100. reset x form anyway,reattached them to the main model then reset xform to the entirety of the model to no avail. 

Could the hand topology geometry or pose be causing this (it's not the best). I can rig a straightened hand in a separate file no problem.

It's max 2024.

Here is the partial file

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_yrSQzR5VptwOKPoajRqcWOzDAvANCLf/view?usp=drivesdk

Eric Chadwick

No I meant the bones. Are they scaled in any way?

Eric Chadwick

Sorry I haven't used CAT so I can't really help with your issue. Some of the arm bones do have non 100% scale, and it's not a huge amount per bone, but maybe this could be compounded as it travels down the hierarchy?

MancD

Thanks, what unit's are you using here? Did you adapt the files or switch to your system based units?

MancD

It's showing 100% in my instance of max in meters.

Noren

The 99.99999 etc. might just be floating point accuracy, but I wouldn't recommend to work in meters as system units for a human sized model (the display units don't really matter). It should be fine, but cm would be a better choice.

Not on 2024 and haven't used CAT, but is this the original CAT rig? Since the orientation of the index finger bones seems to be completely different from the other ones. I do remember Skin placing some strange links now and then, though.

Are you planning to use envelopes? Because if not, you should be able to ignore the Skin links and weight manually. Doesn't answer your question, of course.

poopipe

It does look like it's Skin rather than CAT that's being wonky. 

I've not rigged anything in max for a couple of years but I too have seen skin create silly sized envelope bone thingies on several occasions.

iirc you can edit them manually and copy/mirror them in the same way you can vertex weights

MancD

Noren said:

The 99.99999 etc. might just be floating point accuracy, but I wouldn't recommend to work in meters as system units for a human sized model (the display units don't really matter). It should be fine, but cm would be a better choice.

Not on 2024 and haven't used CAT, but is this the original CAT rig? Since the orientation of the index finger bones seems to be completely different from the other ones. I do remember Skin placing some strange links now and then, though.

Are you planning to use envelopes? Because if not, you should be able to ignore the Skin links and weight manually. Doesn't answer your question, of course.

Yeah I figured it's so close to 1 it wouldn't be an issue.

MancD

poopipe said:

It does look like it's Skin rather than CAT that's being wonky. 

I've not rigged anything in max for a couple of years but I too have seen skin create silly sized envelope bone thingies on several occasions.

iirc you can edit them manually and copy/mirror them in the same way you can vertex weights

This is a CAT rig started from scratch. I started the arm again, and still had the same issue until that is... I changed the dimensions of the CAT helper boxes and it gave me a better result.

So I'm assuming the issue relates to the size of the CAT helper boxes. That's not to say it's perfect. The bones now stay within the hand at least. The only issue is that the bones whilst locater in rhe correct position they are vertical rather than horizontal. I can amend these by hand though.