Sylvanas Windrunner

vlaint

My first game ready art. Took a while to finish as I only knew how to use Zbrush when I started and my anatomy knowledge isn't all that great especially female anatomy. The face in particular had a lot of revisions. Every time I learned something I would apply to this model. Lots of frustrations and back and forth stuff due to noob mistakes. But this basically sums up my journey on learning the basics of game art.

 I've been a long time lurker of polycount, asking questions here and there if I could not find the answer I was looking for. But I guess one can only go so far just lurking. I was checking previous renders that I did, and I was sure at the time I did those renders I was quite happy and sure she looked great, but now they look horrible so apparently I can't really trust my self on what looks good. I only know that I am content with her for now.

So I guess its time to ask for critiques  or recommendations on what needs improvement for future models. Will probably not work on her anymore as I've been working on her for a long time lol(but maybe in the future).

More renders here https://www.artstation.com/artwork/WB1by3




Sculpted in Zbrush
Retopo in Maya
Haircards done in Maya Xgen
Textured with Substance Painter
Rendered with Marmoset Toolbag 4

vlaint

Things I know needs more work:

Lower polycount - Since this is my first time, I really had no idea of the capabilities of texture baking so I overcompensated with topology.

UVs - It's messy. I used RizomUV on most of them. Probably can use rectangularized UVs like what I did with the eyes but I guess I was too concerned about the stretching/distortion with Rizom UI that I didn't do it.

Hard edges are probably too sharp. Same with the low poly, probably needs more bevel. 

Posing was a pain. If I wasn't careful some of the mesh detach when moved. Not sure if they should all be connected or that's just how it is.

Anatomy. Needs more work and practice I guess. I think something is still wrong with the mouth part area.

Presentation- I just followed what other people say here when companies look for a portfolio. Put your best pic on top then a texture breakdown. Everything else on the bottom even turntables. Although I think the way I presented the texture breakdown and topology is wrong.

Probably forgetting some more stuff but feel free let me know what you guys think I need to work more on.

zetheros

you critiqued yourself pretty well tbh, it's good that you can spot areas of improvement on your own work.

- I think her proportions need work; Sylvanas has longer legs and a more slender hourglass figure. Don't forget she was a high elf in life, and not just any high elf but a captain ranger. So you'd want heroic proportions as well.

- Not really a critique, but a suggestion. I see two artstyles that don't really mesh well together; the polygonal artstyle of WoW but with realistic details layered on top. I think taking more artistic liberty with the armour would be a good thing here. Study how real armour is made, and improve upon Blizzard's designs.

-Her corset and similar leather could be a shade darker in colour.

good luck!

vlaint

zetheros said:

you critiqued yourself pretty well tbh, it's good that you can spot areas of improvement on your own work.

- I think her proportions need work; Sylvanas has longer legs and a more slender hourglass figure. Don't forget she was a high elf in life, and not just any high elf but a captain ranger. So you'd want heroic proportions as well.

- Not really a critique, but a suggestion. I see two artstyles that don't really mesh well together; the polygonal artstyle of WoW but with realistic details layered on top. I think taking more artistic liberty with the armour would be a good thing here. Study how real armour is made, and improve upon Blizzard's designs.

-Her corset and similar leather could be a shade darker in colour.

good luck!
Back when I did the body I was more focused on making a body for general use. And since I wanted to make one that was slim and fit because of the character I used a gymnast body for reference instead of the one from the game or cinematic and just modeled around it. I did make use of her height though, I guess roughly.

Not sure what you mean by the polygonal artstyle. I assume its the sharp edges? So maybe add more padding or bevel for softer edges? But yeah I was going for a realistic approach. I agree though the armor looks like its laser cut and too sharp, definitely needs some hammering.

You're right the color of the leather kinda stands out a bit .

Thank you for the feedback!

Alex_J

looks cool to me. I am not familiar with the source.

i played BG3 recently a bit, not really my genre or style but I just wanted to see what the hype was about. This character would easily fit in that game IMO. Pretty stellar for your first character!

zetheros

Yes, the sharp edges, but also the fact that the metal is several inches thick on the pauldrons. This would be like putting an anvil on each shoulder with no chest, head, or neck protection and saying "yep, this will protect me, seems good enough. Nobody will ever think of stabbing me directly in the face."

When realism is added to this artstyle, it breaks visually because this kind of armour would be life threatening to wear in real life.

It forces a viewer to use suspension of disbelief in order to enjoy the media. For example, a similar issue is present in Hollywood action movies; the protagonist is about to parachute from a burning airplane, but stops and takes 30 seconds to kiss their guy/gal, and they go on an extra long tangent to describe how much they love each other. Meanwhile, the audience is like, "wtf? get your asses out of the plane and you can kiss later."

But, I know you're working true to concept, which is why me telling you to use some artistic license was just a suggestion.

I found this off reddit, pretty cool to see a character evolve over time. She does have a very thin waist, lol

vlaint

Alex_J said:

looks cool to me. I am not familiar with the source.

i played BG3 recently a bit, not really my genre or style but I just wanted to see what the hype was about. This character would easily fit in that game IMO. Pretty stellar for your first character!

Thank you for the kind words! She's from Warcraft. I may probably pick Baldurs Gate 3 some time soon too since I love RPGs.

zetheros said:

Yes, the sharp edges, but also the fact that the metal is several inches thick on the pauldrons. This would be like putting an anvil on each shoulder with no chest, head, or neck protection and saying "yep, this will protect me, seems good enough. Nobody will ever think of stabbing me directly in the face."

When realism is added to this artstyle, it breaks visually because this kind of armour would be life threatening to wear in real life.

It forces a viewer to use suspension of disbelief in order to enjoy the media. For example, a similar issue is present in Hollywood action movies; the protagonist is about to parachute from a burning airplane, but stops and takes 30 seconds to kiss their guy/gal, and they go on an extra long tangent to describe how much they love each other. Meanwhile, the audience is like, "wtf? get your asses out of the plane and you can kiss later."

But, I know you're working true to concept, which is why me telling you to use some artistic license was just a suggestion.

I found this off reddit, pretty cool to see a character evolve over time. She does have a very thin waist, lol

Oh that. Yeah I get what you mean and it makes sense. Kinda a Warcraft trademark I guess, big bulky armor and swords. A ranger that's supposed to be stealthy and quick wearing plate heavy plate armor. But Blizzard says "We added feathers for +5 stealth and speed so all is good" lol. But I will keep what you said in mind when designing and making realistic characters next time.

I think she's had her appearance changed the most out of all characters in Warcraft. I haven't really played WoW but I've seen players complaining about her appearance change almost every expansion lol. Yeah. Part of the reason why I didn't really follow it since it looked too stylized not sure if thats the term. Although I do like the second to the last pic which is her latest model, waist is just right, the armor looks nice too.

kanga

Looks good.
Posture is bad in the first 2 pics. Probably a combo of the lighting and the pose. Looks like a hero character and getting the figure grounded you need to shift the weight by placing the hips slightly forward in profile and balancing the rest by placing a centre line  through the COV to see. This helps prevent visual floating of the figure.

 copyright rocketbrush studio

In the default pose the head is large, torso short, arms long, legs short. This depends on what you are trying to achieve, but specially for the game you chose the proportions are not helping. Check out the image zetheros posted above. Best way to get a handle on proportions is by using a program (free) that has generic examples. Daz3D is great for reference. You can edit the pose. change musculature even switch textures on and off. Having it on a screen next to you while you work is  a great help.

I'm not sure what you intend the model for, but I suspect its broken up into pieces and you are trying to pose it in zbrush. I tried that but personally I much prefer a 3D app like Blender for a final pose and render. Your model might be too high poly  but for hi rez use you could look at displacement as a solution. In any case you can bind loads of meshes to one rig and weighted properly all should work fine. Your 'A' pose is good, but turn the hands palm down. That's just good practice and when yout character has one arm piece it will prevent default twisting.

copyright artstation.com

So you can see the advantage of good and expressive posture but composition also helps alot. Notice the weapon above, then look at yours. The way its positioned I didn't notice it was a bow. Also keep the detail of the model from becoming complex by not complicating the structure and color/lighting. You want to aim for clear dynamic forms.

Have fun!

vlaint

kanga said:

Looks good.
Posture is bad in the first 2 pics. Probably a combo of the lighting and the pose. Looks like a hero character and getting the figure grounded you need to shift the weight by placing the hips slightly forward in profile and balancing the rest by placing a centre line  through the COV to see. This helps prevent visual floating of the figure.

 copyright rocketbrush studio

In the default pose the head is large, torso short, arms long, legs short. This depends on what you are trying to achieve, but specially for the game you chose the proportions are not helping. Check out the image zetheros posted above. Best way to get a handle on proportions is by using a program (free) that has generic examples. Daz3D is great for reference. You can edit the pose. change musculature even switch textures on and off. Having it on a screen next to you while you work is  a great help.

I'm not sure what you intend the model for, but I suspect its broken up into pieces and you are trying to pose it in zbrush. I tried that but personally I much prefer a 3D app like Blender for a final pose and render. Your model might be too high poly  but for hi rez use you could look at displacement as a solution. In any case you can bind loads of meshes to one rig and weighted properly all should work fine. Your 'A' pose is good, but turn the hands palm down. That's just good practice and when yout character has one arm piece it will prevent default twisting.

copyright artstation.com

So you can see the advantage of good and expressive posture but composition also helps alot. Notice the weapon above, then look at yours. The way its positioned I didn't notice it was a bow. Also keep the detail of the model from becoming complex by not complicating the structure and color/lighting. You want to aim for clear dynamic forms.

Have fun!

Hi. Thank you for taking the time to write this! Though I may need some clarification on some stuff since this is still new to me.

For the pose, yeah, I think its the pose rather than the lighting but I could be wrong. I wasn't really happy with the pose but since it's better than the generic T-pose I just went with it. For the pose I did try to move the hip a bit forward and the torso a bit back but it made lots of clipping and ugly stuff  so I just tilt the body to the side from T-pose lol. Originally I had wanted to do a much more dynamic pose but after having trouble just doing an easier one I scratched the idea, until I figure out how to do it right anyway. I guess getting a proper reference probably helps too since I was just looking at myself at the mirror then go back to adjusting some stuff.

This is the base mesh that I did. Forgive the cuts I separated the mesh and subd which caused the edge loops to shrink but its still about the same. I did shorten the arms on the armor side a bit though as I find it a bit long. She does look to be standing a bit straight than the reference you provided. Is that how it should be done? Also not sure what you mean by this "This helps prevent visual floating of the figure."

 The body was more of a personal preference than staying true to the source. But personal preference does not excuse bad proportions and anatomy so I still wanna know if its that bad given I want semi realistic proportions.  When I modeled the body I did put a female base mesh that someone did in Artstation just a normal female body not heroic build or anything as I did want it to have realistic proportions. I put that on the side as a guide then modeled and adjusted to my preference since I want to practice as well. Base mesh is not finished btw its only for getting my land marks since itll be covered by armor.

I have heard of Daz3d from flippednormals. Think they said to use the base mesh from Daz, sculpt the details and import it back to daz3d for pose since its already rigged. May take a look at that. Or I probably should get more practice lol.



TBH I didn't really have a target on what this model is for. I only knew I wanted to make one like in the Blizzard cinematics but game ready. You are correct I posed in Zbrush lol. Originally the palm of the glove was facing down but since the forearm guard wasn't really supposed to move around regardless of wrist rotation I just rotated the gloves since it had a better silhouette(I think). But I do get what you mean, during pose I had to rotate some stuff around the upper arm, it was bad. I was only able to get away with the glove since its separate.

For composition, yeah I was having trouble getting a good angle that showed the full body while showcasing the bow but at the same time the bow not stealing the spotlight. In the end I just rendered a separate view of the bow and called it a day. Probably needs a change in pose I guess.

Can you explain more about this?
Also keep the detail of the model from becoming complex by not complicating the structure and color/lighting. You want to aim for clear dynamic forms.

I appreciate the time you spent for the feedback. Thank you!

HarlequinWerewolf

vlaint said:

For the pose, yeah, I think its the pose rather than the lighting but I could be wrong. I wasn't really happy with the pose but since it's better than the generic T-pose I just went with it. For the pose I did try to move the hip a bit forward and the torso a bit back but it made lots of clipping and ugly stuff  so I just tilt the body to the side from T-pose lol. Originally I had wanted to do a much more dynamic pose but after having trouble just doing an easier one I scratched the idea, until I figure out how to do it right anyway. I guess getting a proper reference probably helps too since I was just looking at myself at the mirror then go back to adjusting some stuff.

I'm curious how your posing the character? Are you using an auto rig or a rig from scratch? Or are you using Transpose Master in Zbrush? If you're rigging the character you're going to have to get used to skinning properly (or as properly as you can for some nice poses). I like to use Advanced Skeleton to rig my humanoid characters (although I used it for a dragon once too). 

vlaint

HarlequinWerewolf said:

vlaint said:

For the pose, yeah, I think its the pose rather than the lighting but I could be wrong. I wasn't really happy with the pose but since it's better than the generic T-pose I just went with it. For the pose I did try to move the hip a bit forward and the torso a bit back but it made lots of clipping and ugly stuff  so I just tilt the body to the side from T-pose lol. Originally I had wanted to do a much more dynamic pose but after having trouble just doing an easier one I scratched the idea, until I figure out how to do it right anyway. I guess getting a proper reference probably helps too since I was just looking at myself at the mirror then go back to adjusting some stuff.

I'm curious how your posing the character? Are you using an auto rig or a rig from scratch? Or are you using Transpose Master in Zbrush? If you're rigging the character you're going to have to get used to skinning properly (or as properly as you can for some nice poses). I like to use Advanced Skeleton to rig my humanoid characters (although I used it for a dragon once too). 

Just transpose master in zbrush. Yeah it looks like I will have to learn how to rig if I ever want to pose properly. I was looking at some tutorials on how to rig in maya today still haven't found the time to play with it though as I'm doing something else.

kanga

On the other side of things you should be able to get a good pose just by moving stuff in zB. If one position is all you want you really dont have to go through the whole mesh optimization, rigging thing.