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AI Art, Good or Bad? A (hopefully) nuanced take on the subject.

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  • NikhilR
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    NikhilR polycounter

    Actually in architecture, the people doing it call themselves designers or visualizers, maybe that term is more appropriate with AI art prompters?

    Or you could say they are the lowest form of menial labor in art generation, kind of like trash pickers that work in the dumps foraging through garbage looking for recycling.

    They aren't producing anything yet looking through generated content (garbage) to find something that makes them feel like their on top of the garbage pile. Until more garbage is dumped on top of them.

    Kind of like looking for gold except its garbage.

    While some might work their way out of the dump the rest will likely live there with the vermin looking out for the next cool bit of content until there isnt any and the landfill is shutdown.

    Also rendering a composition isn't the same as what AI is doing, actually whether it's actually learning or not is still upto debate and hopefully there's more transparency in that next year.l

  • Shadowstep
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    Shadowstep polycounter lvl 9

    The Luddites (and the Luddite movement) smashed the machines. But why did the Luddites smash the machines? And what happened to the Luddites afterwards? What are you therefore implying about the people who are against AI when you call them Luddites?

  • pxgeek
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    pxgeek keyframe

    "What you basically would do is to blind the AI by taking away the training data"

    I think that is one of the key issues artists want a remedy for. They're basically saying "hey, I didn't post my portfolio online to have it be used by this software unbeknownst to me, that anyone can use for commercial purposes...please remove it."

    It's a sensible request. And trivial to do for the software...for the hypothetical blind child in our example: not so much.

    It's the wild, wild west for sure. A new frontier. People will want to explore, mistakes will be made, lessons hopefully learned. It's pretty cool to have discourse about here, because it is us, our industry, our peers, our colleagues and friends that can shape and change it.

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    The main question is, was luddism a success? The answer is obviously no. The reason for luddism was plain fear without to understand the consequences. And Ned Ludd is not more than a historical foot note nowadays.

    Usually luddist people knows very little about the matter and are hard to convince. They can't see the big picture. And destroys what they fear and do not understand. And this thread is in fact full of false claims and plain lies. Which fulfills point one. And the hate against what they do not understand and fear will lead to point two then if you let them.

    But like in the past, this will lead to nowhere. Or do you really think that destroying the machines will help this time? Would you want to be stuck in the 19th century? Or with SDS modeling since somebody thinks sculpting is evil? At which point of the history should we stop the progress and trap the human evolution? It was the machines that leaded to where we are now, where our society now is. You type at one when you write here. You can regulate progress. But to smash the machines will not work.

  • ghost-d
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    ghost-d polycounter lvl 17


    So technology got us where we are. People are getting spoiled and bored out of their mind, living for instant gratification, lip-sync quotes from movies pretending to be actors, doing their stupid little dances for likes, people no longer need to remember anything because their phone is "smart", many people can´t count because calculator is in their pocket all the time and math is... - bad anyway. Unified by uniquity, everyone is different by doing the same thing.

    But it wasn´t the machines that got us here. It was people who invented machines and that is the whole point. Machines allowed us to spend more time with our families and hobbies. But most people spend it doing things that actively make them dumber. Right now there are people that are creating AI that will eventually dumb down even digital art.

    I thought that air-guitar players was a rock bottom and couldn´t believe it when I saw it for the first time. Turns out that there are more areas that people like to pretend to be good at. Pretended creativity. Who do you think evolved here? People that created the AI programs - for sure. In their own field - programming, not artistic creativity. The users? Nope. If you pick up an instrument that immediately makes you able to compete with Brian May, it means that what you´re holding is NOT a guitar and you are NOT a guitarist. You did not evolve if you were not involved. Will you find people stupid enough to think you´re somebody? Sure you will. It´s not that hard nowadays. But it will be just another nail in the coffin. Coffin of creativity this time. This way we will eventually get to a point when we will all be just consumers that will no longer be able to create items of our everyday use. You don´t need artists protesting to get to 19th century. We´ll dumb out our way there eventually if we allow it.

    Who makes the shoes now? How do those people live? Did they inherently become as important as shoemakers were in the past? Dirt poor people in poor countries working long hours. And it´s not for some "that, over there" companies with lower moral standards from different cultures, nope. Same thing will happen to concept artists in the near future. When these "hackers" that can´t even create e-mail and send attachment will be able to become "what used to be concept artists", the only thing that will happen is degradation of the whole field. Wage will go down because you don´t need any expertise and there will be masses out there just waiting to do your job (that´s what they will even tell you in your face in some countries). You´ll be using AI so you´ll be required to deliver tons of concepts and your job will no longer be valued. There was this guy I thought could do beautiful face paintings. When I found out about AI I checked his stuff again. "freelancer concept face designer using AI". So turns out he´s a bum... How will I be able to tell who´s a bum and who´s a genuine artist in the future? Because even if we decided that painting is no longer a career choice for artistic soul to chase and will only become a hobby, these people will still be around fleecing platforms for artists. Just like players using aimbots. They won´t just leave and play with other losers of their kind someplace else, because there´s way too many people that are no longer ashamed for taking credit for nothing. This used to be community where we helped each other. Learned one from another. There weren´t any secrets. People shared their techniques and methods. There wasn´t a noob and a master. You could´ve just started and a professional would give you an advice. That´s how we all evolved. Helping each other taking another step further. We valued each other, because whatever you made and wherever you got, you took every step of the path. All of this is at stake as well.

    Are there real artists that are learning AI now? Can be. It´s understandable, they´re trying to adapt. It´s natural. Just because they see what could happen eventually and try to adapt doesn´t mean that they necessarily support it or are happy about it. Once AI becomes part of the process they will end up doing job as creative as flipping burgers for the same wage. It will be a lot healthier doing some other job than sit in an office all day for THAT.

    Protests are weaker? Yes. Every protest will weaken eventually if no actions are taken. Especially protest that is actively suppressed and censored. But does it mean that every protest that gets weaker over time was for an unjust cause? I´m pretty sure there are countries with unsuccessful human rights protests. By this logic it means that these ideas were wrong purely on the basis that the protest got weaker eventually.

    If I steal car parts from dozens of people and put it all together... did I just make a car? wow!! I´m not a thief. I´m creative... And what if I there were some other guys that stole car parts for me and put those together on my request? That makes me what? Even more creative somehow..? As despicable as I find it, I would literally respect a person that photoshops other peoples work and morph it into something new by him/herself more that these AI guys...

    You can´t compare rendering pre-made models or models bought from other creators to what AI artists do. 3ds max or maya doesn´t come with other peoples work without their consent. If you upload/import stolen model in to a scene it is what you did, not what comes with the program. + what NikhilR said.

  • Shadowstep
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    Shadowstep polycounter lvl 9

    "Was luddism a success?" is not the question that I asked. And I promise you, they understood the machines just fine, and I'm not just talking about looms.

    Why did the Luddites smash the machines, and what happened to them after that?

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    No, they did not understand. They jumped too short and saw just their own feet. That's why. And most of them ended in jail. Some got even deported to australia.

    So technology got us where we are. People are getting spoiled and bored out of their mind, living for instant gratification, lip-sync quotes from movies pretending to be actors, doing their stupid little dances for likes, people no longer need to remember anything because their phone is "smart", many people can´t count because calculator is in their pocket all the time and math is... - bad anyway. Unified by uniquity, everyone is different by doing the same thing.

    Yeah, that's how the masses is. They are consumers. And bread and games worked already for the romans. But living in the same primitive job for 30 years and dying with 40 is not what i would call a good living nowadays. The world is currently as colorful as it never was. And without machines i would still do the same stupid steps in my boring job until i tip over. It is what allowes me to live my creative side.

    It was people who invented machines and that is the whole point.

    Indeed. AI is not different. It is a tool. Invented by humans, and used by humans. Human still decides what it wants to produce.

     Right now there are people that are creating AI that will eventually dumb down even digital art.

    You mean like people who makes pictures with cameras? Or artists who throws fat onto a wall and call it a day? Or artists who puts their shit into a can?

    It is the exact opposite that happens at the moment. Digital art has climbed another hill. The creativity in the galleries and Discord explodes. And it raises the bar. AI allows to produce what was formerly just allowed to a handful people with the right tools. And this in minutes instead of weeks and months. It has shortened the crafting process from the idea to the final product dramatically. This is its true crime. Being a much faster competitor to the traditional artist.

    Dirt poor people in poor countries working long hours.

    Without machines you would be this dirtful poor human.

    So turns out he´s a bum... How will I be able to tell who´s a bum and who´s a genuine artist in the future? 

    That's imho the wrong question. When the result is useful and not to distinguish from art created in the traditional way, why would you even mind HOW it was done? And would you pay 3000 euro instead of 30 just to know that it is done the old traditional and cumbersome way?

    Productivity always searches for the shortest path. And using the more productive workflow is imho pretty clever. A professional artist always searches for ways to raise his productivity. It's a question of competition.

    In the end quality will be the culprit. And knowing the traditional art will still help to compete. I have for example started character modeling with SDS modeling. I know what topology is. Nowadays the people starts with sculpting already. And are in heavy trouble to retopo it then. Since they never learned about topology.

    That's why i say AI is an artists tool. It's one thing to type in a few words. But you need to be a true artist to unleash its full power. Bums as you call them will also fail with AI. Like somebody who just can sculpt will fail with retopo. Until he learned it.

    3ds max or maya doesn´t come with other peoples work without their consent. 

    Neither does AI. What you feel here differs from what it is. The AI weight does not contain a single pixel or copyrighted material.

    If I steal car parts from dozens of people and put it all together... did I just make a car? wow!! I´m not a thief. I´m creative... 

    It's exactly what happens in real life. You grab parts that somebody else has invented and produces, and put it together to build your car. A brake system, gear, the board computer, wheels, and so on. Or do you think that Ford produces every piece by himself? You could even call this process stealing, since the suplliers are usually lousy paid. Cheapest one gets the contract. The times where a company did even the smallest screw by themselves are long gone. We live in a highly complex world, full of kitbashing in every form.

    This doesn't end at the car parts. Ever noticed how amazingly equal design of cars from this and that decade is? :)

    Humans copies style as long as humans exists. That's what learning means. You look at something, and improve on top of it. At least what you consider an improvement.

    Protests are weaker? Yes. Every protest will weaken eventually if no actions are taken. Especially protest that is actively suppressed and censored.

    Do you mean artstation? I can still see the no AI logos. I don't notice any censorship. Even the old logos are still there. At least the interesting ones where i had a look at. So no suppression or censorship to see here.

    And taking actions requires a good reason to take this action. A handful noisy people is no valid reason.

    I think that is one of the key issues artists want a remedy for.

    I am all in to pay artists proper. The more the better. But remedy for what? Based at what law? Looking at public available images? This question is simply not answered yet. If you can, then we would have a starting point.

    I'm no lawyer, but there is from what i know not a single law that forbids the looking at public available images. That's why they are public at all. And copyright does not apply here. No design or brand right is broken, not a single pixel is reused by AI. You cannot patent style. Everybody is allowed to paint a tree in pastel colors in style of artist xy. Which is a damn good thing.

    But let's assume for a moment that you can claim remedy, that a law gets invented that forbids to look at public available images without consent. How much? And who pays you then? How does the money arrive at the artists? And what happens when I now look at this public available image? How would you even catch me and send me my bill? And how could i prevent to look at this public available image where you claim nobody should be allowed to look at?

    There is meanwhile the first lawsuit, against the Microsoft Copilot AI, which i have overlooked. But in this case the code parts in question are really equal, and are under a special open source license. So there is at least a chance that this lawsuit could be successful. https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/microsoft-sued-for-open-source-piracy-through-github-copilot/

    But i still think the copilot user is responsible for the result, not the makers of Copilot. It will for sure be interesting to hear the arguments and to hear the verdict and the reasoning. And it will be especially interesting since it will refine what Open Source code means. The border of what code parts can be patented and what not. And it is also interesting to note that the lawyers doesn't claim copyright breach. They had a hard time to find the right reasoning for the lawsuit.

  • ghost-d
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    ghost-d polycounter lvl 17

    aaaaand I´m done.... I say skills, you say productivity for everyone. I say dumber people, you say colorful world. I say aimbots, you say results. I say devaluation of wages in creative work field due to AI, you say we would be dirt poor without machines anyway. Stolen parts equals parts produced and PAID FOR elsewhere. Lousily paid as you admitted, but why would the same thing happen to artists when AI gets involved, right..?

    If you excuse me, I have to go and fix my resume now. Turns out that whenever I generated a new map in Age of Empires II at the age of 10, I was actually level designer at Ensemble Studios. Silly me...

  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter

    What a well-needed Xmas break ! I hope all of you managed to take a bit of a breather and enjoy friends and family (all that while AI-children were probably busy feverously typing into the MJ server to get the most out of their paid sub by the end of the month)

    There's still a ton more to unpack though (probably for later).As far as I am concerned the only 2 ways I found to not think about all this are : spending time with close relatives/friends, and pouring even more hours into meat-made-art (even though I have no idea on how we will resume sharing pictures online again from here on). Even the most mundane things become precious, from manual retopo and UVs, to ... crocheting. Or rather, watching someone crochet, because come on :D

    Also, outside of the legal battles and the inevitable upcoming regulation on image data sniffing, I feel like there's the possibility of a backlash from the general public. I was pleasantly surprised to see some of the comments under a LensaAI selfie that Megan Fox uploaded, with her followers quick to point the art theft issue. The genie may be out of the bottle, but the cat is out of the bag too. I think AI-cunts don't realize that by targeting art they are attacking something that many, many people actually understand and cherish.

    https://www.euronews.com/culture/2022/12/15/what-is-the-lensa-app-and-why-are-artists-worried-about-it

    The tech still has incredibly dark consequences though. Knowing that there is a bunch of AI-morons out there rejoicing at the idea of instant-xeroxing artists for their own little daily dopamine rush and/or to hopefully make a quick buck is incredibly unsettling.

    Anyways ! Got some therapeutic retopo and pencil wiggling to do :)

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    Doesn't age of empires also arrive in the current time? With machines and such? What if Ned Ludd would have been part of the game, hammering it back to medieval over and over again? :)

    Sorry for driving you crazy with playing the devils advocate here. I was put into this corner, and now i do my best.

    I do not even deny your fears and concerns. The world is of course not just black or white. Maybe your concerns even come true to you. That's how it is with an art job. It's not 9 to 5, and there is always strong competition anyways. And now there is a competing machine too. I completely understand your point. I do not lack of empathy neither. I just point at the other side of the coin, which is for me the more likely scenario. I see the chance where you see the end of the world. Since AI will not only remove jobs, but also create new ones. It always was that way. Change is the only constant in life. Adapt or die out. And most of the times people will adapt.

    I'm an old man. and no digital native. I have seen lots of revolutionary changes over the years. And i have heard the same fears over and over again. Robots will make workers obsolete. Didn't happen. The computer will make all office jobs obsolete. We have more office jobs than ever. And so on. AI is for me just one of many revolutionary changes. A fascinating one though. And damn am i curious how it goes on with it and what comes next. Imagine to connect the text AI with a futuristic printer that can really print everything. Computer, a cup of earl grey please ...

    Where i will remain to disagree is the part with the stolen artwork. There is no theft. It simly does not work this way. Not a single copyright or brand is broken by image AI. That's what makes the matter so complicated. That's why there is not a single lawsuit against image AI so far (that i know of). And the one against Microsoft Copilot is because of violating GPL, not copyright in general. I have to read it again, to fully understand the reasoning for the lawsuit. And this case is different from image AI. Words cannot be painted in another style or with other letters ...

    I know that it feels wrong to you that AI looks at your images and then draws in your style. But feeling doesn't count. This part is simply not illegal. Style cannot be patented. Maybe in the future there is some regulation. But not now.

    How many times have we been at this point in the discussion now? Ah, time flies when you're having fun ...

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    AI-cunts ... AI-morons ...

    Ah, we still continue to learn shiny new words here. That for that.

  • ghost-d
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    ghost-d polycounter lvl 17

    You can´t drive me crazy when you didn´t get the point (or intentionally decided to ignore it) with generating maps in Age of Empires and calling myself level designer and aimbots analogy to art hobbyists in the future. I´m not even going to use synthetic diamond and natural diamond analogy, because to you it is all the same I guess, both worth the same money. Cheap or expensive depending on which fits your point better at the very moment.

    But your advocacy here is a useful tool for others present their point of view. Because even people on the same side could see things slightly differently and bring some ideas one would never think of. The only regret I feel is that we can´t split world in two, so you could live in your colorful world full of AI artist and the loud minority of us could live our lives without instant gratification junkies (the ship has sailed already though...).

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    Yeah, too bad that i don't fall to every bait, isn't it. At least i made some new friends here in this thread :)

    https://media.tenor.com/8A956FaSJgUAAAAC/forrest-gump-waving.gif

  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter

    Some information and (american) legal precedent on slapping the genie's stinky ass back into its utopian bottle :

    The FTC first used the approach in 2019, amid scandalous headlines that exposed Facebook’s privacy vulnerabilities and brought down political data and campaign consultancy Cambridge Analytica. The agency called on Cambridge Analytica to destroy the data it had gathered about Facebook users through deceptive means along with “information or work product, including any algorithms or equations” built using that data.

    It was another two years before algorithmic disgorgement came around again when the commission settled a case with photo-sharing app company Everalbum. The company was charged with using facial recognition in its Ever app to detect people’s identities in images without allowing users to turn it off, and for using photos uploaded through the app to help build its facial recognition technology.

    In that case, the commission told Everalbum to destroy the photos, videos and facial and biometric data it gleaned from app users and to delete products built using it, including “any models or algorithms developed in whole or in part” using that data.

  • Two Listen
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    Two Listen polycount sponsor

    I know that it feels wrong to you that AI looks at your images and then draws in your style. But feeling doesn't count. This part is simply not illegal. Style cannot be patented. Maybe in the future there is some regulation. But not now.


    Well I mean, it sort of counts. You seem to have this interesting viewpoint that it doesn't matter if it isn't strictly (at this point in time) illegal.

    But like...

    Being an asshole isn't illegal. But if I can help it, I'm still not going to associate with, hire, or financially contribute to the livelihood of assholes.

    There's a lot of things that aren't illegal that don't make the world richer. Making it easier for stupid people to be stupid and disrespectful isn't an impressive innovation. Creating tools that encourage corporate greed, that push people to keep consuming, that tell people results come not from well-meaning effort and study but from ripping people off - this does not benefit mankind (or local community, or even oneself).

    Why is it we started with stealing from artists? Why did we instantly try - all over the world, to monetize people being lazier? To reward people who do less work, who have less creativity, and harm those who are already a rare and valuable breed of person? We seriously thought that was better than training AI to detect cancers? We want to put out apps on Google Play more than we want help designing better prosthetics? Solve for energy efficiency?

    Of course we do. Like with most other things, it's easier to do harm than it is to do good. And as this technology perfectly illustrates (lol) - people want to be lazy.

    And yes - as you've pointed out @Tiles - there are many technological innovations we've had and use that make people lazier. This is not the first. It's becoming more and more clear that we've been foolishly chasing some truly stupid things for a good long while. I hope that the world pivots, regulates, and brings things to a more reasonable and respectful place with regards to AI generative content. I hope that we wind up in a place where people like you can be happy, and the artists of the world can feel respected at the same time.

    Until then - as you've noted, you are allowed to go about doing what you're doing. For all intents and purposes at the moment, it is not "illegal". And similar to how respect for the artists whose work was used was apparently not required...

    Respect for the people who use the tools is also, not required.

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    Yeah, i have the interesting viewpoint that law matters. It is the law that keeps this world together. Not some neo luddist with pitchforks who thinks they stand above law. Violent fantasies and insults do not change the situation at all. Go change this law if you can, then we can talk again.

  • sacboi
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    sacboi high dynamic range

    [post deleted]

  • N4meless
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    N4meless greentooth

    @tiles we already have something that make it potentially illegal it's called copyright ... the problem behind the AI is the inputed copyrighted stuff into it, their creator used them without having the right to do so which should be illegal and don't respond me with it's not the same pixel again ... they used copyrighted stuff to create an algorithm to make money ... this is the part that will probably be illegal in the future. And by the way each time someone bring you an argument you respond exactly the same thing again and again you don't bring anything new so please tell me you have other argument than notthe same pixel not illegal and you luddites ...

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    We go in circles. Since of course i disagree. Copyright is not broken by looking at public available images. Oh boy would we have a problem when this would be the case :)

    Have a read here: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/23/technology/copilot-microsoft-ai-lawsuit.html

    To the surprise of many legal experts, Mr. Butterick’s suit does not accuse Microsoft, GitHub and OpenAI of copyright infringement.

    ...

    Under existing laws, most experts believe, training an A.I. system on copyrighted material is not necessarily illegal.

  • N4meless
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    N4meless greentooth

    IA don't look at an image, a dev input it too it, it's not the same thing. AI need an input and the input is something a dev bring so the dev used copyrighted stuff

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    Try it. Try to sue AI with this reasoning. Good luck.

  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter

    @Tiles

    all the law is threat of violence, and almost exclusively it is used to protect the owning class, not the working class. So if you counter a threat of violence by pointing to the law you are just offloading your violence to somebody else. Doesn't put you above anything like you are not an angry chimp like all the rest of us.

    Artstation and big business are going to go with AI art because it is cheaper and disenfranchises humans - humans being the number one "cost" in business view.

    Artist will lose because of the simple fact that they are many and will never come together as one, while "big business" is just a few, so it is easy for them to act together with mutual interest, plus with the power of money which, in the end, is used to threaten violence.

    Ultimately all the complicated topics of ethics and laws really comes down to one thing - who has the power. A few people have the power, and will do anything they can to keep it. The many will continue to lose power, and eventually their livelihoods, until the point that they actually figure out who is fucking them and finally get the courage to do something about it.

    It's not conjecture, it is the normal cycle of history for past 10,000 years. Automation has never been for the purpose to improve human life - it is a means to remove human cost from production, and what working class humans are left to do after that isn't a concern.

    Concept art and the like will become like cashiers at the grocery store. There will be like one there, and overworked. Shoppers are left with self-checkout, which seemed like a good thing at first but the end goal this one tiny "improvement" works towards is disenfranchise people and strip them of more bargaining power.

    Being on the side of "the law" really doesn't distinguish you as anything desirable, IMO. You can be a law-abiding mass murderer, thief, rapist, cannibal, etc.

    I feel like you've lost this argument for like three pages in a row, but your pride won't let you back down, so now it is just "yeah well, AI art is not illegal and you'll never be able to sue artstation so fuck everybody."

    I challenge you to go back and read your own post and ask the question, "is this not a bunch of mental gymnastics, demonstrated as obvious word-play?" That's what it looks like to me.

    I don't know why you feel so inclined to defend AI art... to artist. I mean, if you want to use it, you can just use it. If you think that it is going to propel you towards something new, I doubt it. It hasn't afforded you any new special advantage. If anything, it has just made it so that you now have to compete with more people.

    I mean, you might be able to have slightly cooler looking music videos now but... so what? I think if you are looking for commercial success, that requires the music to be good first? The video is something that follows success. If you don't are about commercial success and adding cool art to your videos is just a hobby... well what is your big problem that you defend your hobby against people with actual skin in the game?

    And we don't have AI for music yet, right? So you haven't escaped the need to actually become what you want to be, by virtue of your discipline, talent, and work ethic. What you have gained is one more thing to possibly distract you from your main focus, under the guise that it will increase productivity or something like that.

    Also, I think we should drop the whole luddites thing. It's idiotic. This is an internet forum full of digital artist. When automation threatens a persons job, it doesn't make them a Luddite to seek protective legislation. That is one of your favored logical fallacies I am pretty sure - reframing a counter-argument into something outrageous that was never implicated.

    I prefer not to point to logical fallacies though because if I can't explain something with my own words, I feel that this indicates I don't actually understand what I'm talking about. Also it is demeaning and insulting, and of course if you do it once, it opens up others to do the same thing, and then things just get stupid. I won't point out all of your logical fallacies, but I am sure if you reread your own post with an open mind you'll realize that the entire premise of almost every thing you say hinges on well-known fallacies.

    Seems clear to me that it's not an argument of logic though, but rather emotion. Why else would you defend AI art so feverishly for so long? So what is it to you? What do you hope to gain by convincing anybody else that it is not a serious threat to their livelihood or quality of life?

  • dodeqaa
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    dodeqaa polycounter lvl 6

    This is hardly a good comparison.

    The decent thing to do is to credit the asset maker, list what you used and most importantly, pay for the asset. Just like you paid for all the software in your pipeline. The artist also makes a choice of the assets to purchase. Amongst numerous other decisions, scene layout, converting materials, editing textures, lighting, rendering AOVs and compositing to realize the artwork.

    These aren't rote tasks not needing creativity, they each require the thoughtful consideration and sometimes trial and error on the part of the artist. How many of these decisions are being made by the artist and how much of them by the AI when it comes to AI Art workflow?

  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter

    Sorry, couldn't help it :D

    Now for the sake of broadening the discussion and since history has been brought up many times, perhaps the following read is relevant given that it shows what happens when an utopian system (undoubtedly well intentioned, like all utopias are ... or pretend to be) puts a target on the back of artists and intellectuals -

    https://factsanddetails.com/china/cat2/sub6/item67.html

    Now I understand that this is a borderline Godwin point, and perhaps it is. But honestly the rhetoric isn't far removed from the tone expressed by some MJ users targeting artists as some weird form of revenge or fantasized power struggle. Anyone bringing up Utopian fantasies with a straight face (like the babyfaced guest in the earlier Proko video) just sends chills down my spine.

  • dodeqaa
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    dodeqaa polycounter lvl 6

    Really? The old models probably all backed up to hell. Same for all the embeddings. Which is why I feel the original researchers in LAION5B are incredibly irresponsible.

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33953891 Glad there are at least two users on there who realize how ethically ambiguous it is.

    There's already CC0 material, why not crawl for that? If that's not enough, then you can collect more material whilst seeking consent? The only reasons I can i see is, cheap is good and convenience is king. Speaks volumes about these researchers.

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    all the law is threat of violence, and almost exclusively it is used to protect the owning class, not the working class.

    Wow. Just wow. I have stopped reading at that point already. Whatever you say my friend, whatever you say.

    And we don't have AI for music yet, right?

    Of course we have, since eons. Also here no lawsuit so far.

    There's already CC0 material, why not crawl for that? 

    They do that too. As a sidenote, it's especially the open source material that leaded to the lawsuit against Microsoft Copilot.

  • dodeqaa
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    dodeqaa polycounter lvl 6

    I mean the fact that they didn't restrict themselves to that is pretty damn sloppy.

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    Why should they? They don't violate any law.

    Next circle ahead :)

  • N4meless
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    N4meless greentooth

    If your only argument about AI is always it's not illegal that mean even you understand the ethical aspect of it and that also mean that it should probably be ...



    Also MJ watermark their image ( invisible one) so they don't train it back on itself, they know that if they start training on their own result they will only loose in quality overtime Without artist AI as no future, that's also why they are getting rid of name prompt and such even they understand that without artist their AI are dead sadly the bad is already done.

  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter

    You didn't stop reading, you just don't know how to respond because you are full of shit on this particular subject. If you are going to make the weakest of cop-outs, it would be better to say nothing!


    Also, I realize english isn't first language for you, but "since eons' makes no sense here. You see, doing this trollish internet thing where you henpeck details but miss broader point is stupid isn't it? It confounds the discussion instead of focusing in on the key points that are important.

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    It is one of my arguments. And i argue based at facts. Look how often i have corrected false claim here now.

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    Argumentum ad hominem in its purest form. Whatever you say my friend, whatever you say.

  • N4meless
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    N4meless greentooth

    Not even once, you claiming false claim doesn't make it false ... else your whole argument is false claim ...

  • ghost-d
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    ghost-d polycounter lvl 17

    ... and one of your arguments when I pointed out that you ignored my point saying was "Yeah, too bad that i don't fall to every bait, isn't it". By that you pretty much validated my points and confirmed that you are just a troll. When you see something as a bait, it means you see that you would get caught on your shit. I feel like speaking to a bot. And not too bright one, I must say.

  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter

    Thats not what ad hominem means.

    Look, you had a bad take on a hot topic and you tried to convince people with no effect. That's fine, we all have opinions and sometimes they are stupid. What makes a community work is when you realize that everybody disagrees with you, then you just shutup about whatever it is. Same thing makes marriage work, etc.

    Basically, you've made your best effort, but nobody is interested in buying what you are selling, so why beat it do death? The longer you go on, the less convincing your point becomes.

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    Covering an ad hominem with another ad hominem? I think we have reached another all time low in the discussion.

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    ... and one of your arguments when I pointed out that you ignored my point saying was "Yeah, too bad that i don't fall to every bait, isn't it". By that you pretty much validated my points and confirmed that you are just a troll. When you see something as a bait, it means you see that you would get caught on your shit. I feel like speaking to a bot. And not too bright one, I must say.

    Next ad Hominem.

    So you folks decided to burn me as the witch instead? :)

  • zetheros
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    zetheros interpolator

    So I've read every comment here, and it's clear this thread has basically devolved into a bitching contest between everyone and Tiles - unmoveable like actual, IRL ceramic tiles.

    To get this thread back on track; I'm looking for an Artstation alternative. I guess using wordpress or some simple html + css is probably the way to go?

    But then there's the social aspect of Artstation that would be missing from just an online portfolio; how are you guys finding it on Tumblr, etc - and lastly could this possibly be a return to a mix of online portfolio + Polycount? I remember the good 'ol days when we got to roast noobs over the fire about UV seams n stuff.

  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter

    Sorry @zetheros , you are right, just one last thing in respect to quote above:

    @tiles, you've been trying to make a point for three pages and nobody is buying it. Naturally, since you won't concede anything, people going to start dropping the politeness and just get to the point and start insinuating that you are either an asshole, or a dumbass, or low-self-esteem troll, etc.

    That is not ad hominem because it is no longer a debate - it's just people indicating they are tired of reading your nonsense and it is not worth engaging with.

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    You nailed it. I will not throw common sense and facts overboard just because some hateraging luddies wants me to. When they want to hate me for my view at the matter, shall they. The discussion is over anyways. We have gone in more than one full circle now. I have nothing more to say to the matter here.

    Tough one. Wordpress is a resource hog. But you may want a css to manage your images. You will go mad with managing the images in plain html. There are not this much CSS alternatives left nowadays. Since Wordpress has killed basically every competition. And doing it by hand, with laravel for example, can eaasily eat up months of work. A static page builder might be a solution when you don't change your images this often. But it is static then ...

    When you plan to code an alternative to Artstation, then there is no other way than a PHP framework though. I managed to create a community page with gallery and forum with Wordpress but it is everything but ideal.

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    When you attack me personally and call me with names then this is an ad hominem. Don't dodge away.

  • ghost-d
  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    ... become personal again? Sure, that's what morons do when you point at their bad behaviour.

  • thomasp
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    thomasp hero character

    Seems a bit premature to run away from Artstation. Granted, their current stance towards AI is disappointing but I think they may still come around. It's only been a few weeks and we're in the holiday period. You do know how this works out in a company, right? Everyone away on holidays and all until a bit into the new year when decisionmakers are back at their desks?

    Anyway the social aspect is the reason to be there on Artstation - job offers do follow IME. I don't think there's a real alternative.

  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter

    @Tiles


    this isn't debate club. You are right, I am calling you a dumbass. Look how stupid you are being here. It's making everybody sad.

  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter

    Hi there @zetheros ,

    Even though an ill-intentioned scrapper would always find a way to scrape, I do feel like good old regular portfolios have a place here. (and perhaps the geographic location of where to host one's files can matter too, since legislation on data collecting is bound to differ).

    I did go the Wordpress route in the past but this turned out to be a bad experience, as the initial appeal of templates and plugins doesn't matter much in the long run when a website gets completely broken by a WP update or anything else in the long chain of dependencies that this system relies upon. All images suddenly blanked out on my previous WP folio and even the folks from the local web dev studio couldn't figure out why - so, never using that shit again :D I feel like WP is best suited for ecommerce really.

    Because of that I decided to go back back to oldschool page creation and it took me a few weeks to find the right environment. I knew I wanted something with a rock solid visual interface for laying things out, but without involving any proprietary tech. There should be no plugins involved, and the end result should be tweakable by hand if needed.

    I ended up settling with QuickAndEasyWebBuilder. It's exactly what I needed and allowed me to rebuild my simple website from scratch over the course of a week or so IIRC. Now it still requires manual FTP upload and manual uploading of the pages for updates (something I really should be doing right now as a matter of fact :D) but it really isn't that much of an inconvenience. I am on version 8, hence I can't say anything about the newer v9.

    https://www.quickandeasywebbuilder.com/

    The one downside actually happened after authoring, as it took me a few days to figure out the proper settings on the hosting side (using OVH) to get the referencing and certificates figured out, as initially some bowsers showed a warning and some didn't.

    - - - - -

    Other than that I suppose that Squarespace would be a solid alternative. It's similar to WP in the broad sense and probably uses just as much proprietary tech, but in practice the difference seems to be that they actually provide customer support, at least according to people using (haven't tried it myself).

    Also, very very simple portfolio sites still have benefits IMHO. By very simple I mean : A single main page, with all images dumped in a vertical layout. FWIW this might still be the absolute best way for a recruiter to review one's work ...

    - - - - -

    I wouldn't worry too much about the loss of networking really. Of course having everyone work at one's fingertips is great, but this can also be a bad thing as it can introduce a weird Art FOMO. And while discovering the work of others (and letting them know of one's appreciation) is fantastic, it doesn't necessarily need to involve literally thousands of people ...

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    When a clever person would call me a dumbass then i would be sad. From you it's a compliment.

    Shall we go on bitching each other?

  • Tiles
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    Tiles greentooth

    Geez, that's not me. I start to act like the morons here. May i ask a moderator to jump in?

  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter

    what do you think is more likely, 10 other people here are morons, or just the one everybody gangs up on is the moron? Have you known this to be a community of morons in the past?

    Also, you're a butthead

  • ghost-d
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    ghost-d polycounter lvl 17

    "When a clever person would call me a dumbass then i would be sad. From you it's a compliment." Tiles


    On Artstation - Great resource of inspiration, portfolios nicely arranged, etc. But I always preferred these forums. And I don´t think that you can reform a platform that allowed all the AI crap for so long. It should become the AI dump they want it to be. You can´t fight them any other way and sooner or later, they will just try to do the same. And next time they might be a bit smarter about it, or more people could be dumber about it and support the crap they do now. Let it fall down as an example for other platforms? Maybe I´m being way too optimistic.

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