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Is blender really going to take over Maya?

cturbo
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cturbo polycounter lvl 3
I only use Maya and I heard everyone currently studying are being taught blender, however I have mixed views, because AAA studios are not really using blender and have no intentions as their artists are all trained up on Maya and they don’t have time to retrain staff. I wondered what others thought of Blender; is it going to be the next big thing, or just another software that probably won’t last and get discontinued like softimage? 

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  • thomasp
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    thomasp hero character
    It's a community project with a large following, not a company that can be bought out. It's been around in some form or other since the 90's and looks like it's here to stay.

  • SnowInChina
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    SnowInChina interpolator
    blender is getting really popular since version 2.8 and a lot of major companies are supporting the develment with funds.
    and its been around for 25years now, i wouldn't count on it beeing discontinued anytime soon


  • gnoop
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    gnoop sublime tool
    Not sure about Maya  but a decade ago  Blender  had been so  much ahead of 3d max  in almost everything .    Data transfer , Face weighted normals, yeah they been there before modifier  too,  UVs .     Every innovation came to Blender first.       It took Autodesk a while  to wake up and  catch up with Blender.
    And while now  Max is a bit ahead  Blender's new geometry nodes  are very promising already . So much  easier  to work with than Max creation graph.   
  • oglu
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    oglu polycount lvl 666
    Maya wont go away. Blender does take a big junk of asset creation for sure. But there is a lot goin on in big studios regarding USD and MaterialX. There is giant effort from many studios to get the USD pipeline in Maya and Houdini growing. And now with Unity even more. 

    What small Studios need is not the same that big Studios need. If you ask a vfx supervisor what is the bottleneck in the production he wont say we need better modeling tools. Its mostly scene complexity, datamanagement and working in parallel. 


    Im sure Blender will grow and Autodesk has to adopt. Im sure Blender will take modeling departments in big Studios. But it wont kill Maya or Houdini. 
  • Gmanx
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    Gmanx polycounter lvl 19
    As both a Maya generalist and a 15+ year Blender user I think it all depends on the size of your team and the type of content you’re creating. Being community led means that Blender is often first with tool-sets and features because it’s development is driven by the users directly.

    I teach both Blender and current industry standard tools and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.
  • Mink
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    Mink polycounter lvl 6
    Big studios come and go, and the number of big firms throwing money at Blender grows every year. Epic Games in particular seems extremely interested in seeing the software grow in terms of industry applicability. With Unreal starting to creep deeper into AAA film and game production, I see Blender slowly making its way into big studios over the coming years. It may not have all of the capabilities of 3DS max or Maya, but it also lacks the serious bulkiness, jank and redundancy that has come to define autodesk 3D programs.

    AMD, Apple, and NVIDIA want Blender to run on their hardware, and are willing to put down the (relatively inconsequential) amount of money in donations to make it happen. They would not care if they didn't think Blender was going to drive sales beyond the simple hobbyist. Maybe. Apple's investment is suspect, because the idea of any serious 3D firm using apple hardware is still somewhat suspect.


    The one thing about blender that worries me is it's nodes system. While it has great capabilities, it also has one of the worst designs I've ever used. Finnicky pins, unclear logic about whether or not and how unlike inputs and outputs will handle each other, and worst of all, the fact you can't drag a pin to the edge of the screen to get the workspace to scroll. Working in blender's nodes is extremely painful, which is a shame, because unlike it's shader nodes, it's geometry nodes are showing serious promise.
  • poopipe
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    poopipe grand marshal polycounter
    The above mentioned companies like to publicly support blender because it's free and there's no barrier to entry. 
    With the exception of epic's fortnite team (who outsource most of their artwork) none of them run an art production pipeline as a major part of their business and in the case of epic especially they profit directly from amateurs playing around at home and buying crap off their marketplace.

    There is a huge difference between what the hobbyist and YouTube influencer market prioritises and what a genuine production environment prioritises.


    We don't use Maya because it's good, we use it because we've been using it for 20+ years and all our tools are built around it.  That's not going to change any time soon and when it does change, nobody with any sense is going to develop another application dependent pipeline. 

    The future is in application agnostic transport formats - be that USD or whatever - not in specific apps




  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter
    I'm a hobbyist and for me blender is still lacking in important features I need to make relatively simple games. 

    Namely the rigging and animation front. I know there is a few plugins but from what I can tell it just doesn't compete. Rigging and animation are both very tedious and time consuming so when I got to do them I want the fastest, most mature tools. 

    I'm all for the cheap/free options and everybody loves underdog but if productivity is a concern I always recommend the indie license for maya. It's like $200 a year which is basically nothing if you think about time it saves you with certain tools. Of course it depends on your needs but I think a lot of hobbyist or beginners just default to blender because it is free, but I think in longer run it pays to use the tools which help you do your work easiest and fastest. 

    (in addition to default rig/anim toolset in maya, if you use animBot, advanced skeleton, and NG skin tools you can do that work extremely fast and easy. It makes it hard to want to use anything else.)


  • gnoop
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    gnoop sublime tool
    Yeah.  the rigging in Blender is a nightmare .   You fight with quirks  and puzzles  90% of a time while even in 3d max it's not that much a trouble.     
    Moreover more complex  your scene is more  issues Blender spawns for you.   Material system is a  total mess.   The whole scene quickly gets littered with some  junk.     Proxy is non existing or inconvenient as hell.       Baking is super convoluted , no AA and  makes you lots of puzzles to solve  with multi object and multi material baking.

    Still there is a lot of things easier to do in Blender than in 3d max IMO  .    Namely : normals  and UV projecting.   Editing normals.    Making lods  manually.    Hooking  curves and geo to each other  .    Quick scattering without much of 3d party plugins.

    And I like  its Eevee viewport and  material shaders.   it resembles the old Shader FX plugin for  MAx before they  embedded it and  made it unusable.   

    As of geometry nodes so far they doesn't seem much of a UX achievement  after  Houdini .   I changed my mind after a month of  playing with them in version 3.



  • Tiles
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    Tiles interpolator
    Gmanx said:
    As both a Maya generalist and a 15+ year Blender user I think it all depends on the size of your team and the type of content you’re creating. Being community led means that Blender is often first with tool-sets and features because it’s development is driven by the users directly.

    I teach both Blender and current industry standard tools and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.
    Hm, in my experience Blender is the one that tries to catch up permanently. trueSpace had a realtime render viewport already back in 2009. The UI concept with the middle aligned content comes from Maya when i have seen it right. And so on. And as my previous poster already said, rigging and animation still needs lots of improvement.

    And don't forget it's not only the core software. But also the periphery. And the GPL is still a big hurdle in this regards. Most professional programmers usually keep their hands away from this license.
  • gnoop
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    gnoop sublime tool
    Tiles said:
    trueSpace had a realtime render viewport already back in 2009.


    In all honesty  True space was a disaster  in regards of user experience.    And real time viewport was more like directX material in MAx  with unusable node editor.    ShaderFX had been born around same time  and so much simpler to use  before Autodesk bought it  and turned  into non stop puzzle  same as their creation graph . 

    I am still can't  use realtime  viewport in modern Max because  of gazillion of settings and buttons you have to keep track of.    As always  everything is possible   but  so convoluted and  twisted nobody use it.   

    Unfortunately user experience  is never been a priority  for pro  level soft  . Too expensive  to waste money on vs actual features or something probably .

      My guess Blender involves  a certain level of  natural selection  so  mostly simple and easy to use features survives.   And  it wasn't one that catch up  most of its history   .  Quite opposite.
      I recall  I switched to Blender around 2008  because of much superior UV editor  that was a disaster in MAx that time.     For a while everyone been using Killroad  and text tool both using  UV code from Blender .   Then face weighted normals  , also a Blender novelty  silently existing  there for years.   Then data transfer 3dMax still can't  do properly with it's projection modifier . Then modelling with floaters which still a puzzle in 3d max.  

    It's only few years ago when Autodesk noticed Blender, waked up and caught up .  I still hope  Blender devs will make it again with geo nodes but my experience is so so  so far.



  • Tiles
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    Tiles interpolator
    Well. I had my fastest workflow back in tS. I just loved the UI UX. Even nowadays for polygon modeling i would be much faster than in Blender. One click for things that needs a dozen clicks in Blender. But yes, user experience differs since users are different :)

    You can imho not blame Max for having a bad UV Mapping. Max and Maya are the base software. The power in this software comes from third party. And Blender was also never superior in this area. There were and are still tools around that does the job much better. Blender has really catched up a lot. But there is still no area where it really shines.
  • gnoop
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    gnoop sublime tool
    I
    Tiles said:
    Well. I had my fastest workflow back in tS.
    For a while it did had an edge over Blender  and it's really shame Microsoft bought and  killed it    same as it did with another great soft  Creative house Expression. 

    As of user experiences  it is true,  users are very different.     I recall my excitement about CG future  in the end of  90th .  That times it looked like  great new tools are around a corner with things like Zbrush  starting to surface.  They was rough and in its infancy still you though it's just a beginning.   

    25 years later   a convenient software is  still  an oxymoron like dry water .   I hoped new  AI era  world change it , nope . just silly useless toys.

       Moreover some  really great soft have died or stopped to develop.     Like Painter ,  the original  now Corel one.   I once did all my textures there using its 32 bit impasto depth channel  and a 3d party tool to extract it.        Then it was Xara , a vector tool  where you could  make a complex collage from a library,  scatter small detail over with a special brush     and then you could replace all involved bitmaps  to normal/roughness   with a single "style" switch.  All simple like 2x2.   Always  non-destructive.   Quick as a speed of light.    They killed a couple of important features and  the whole soft shifted  to  some useless cloud thing.  The old version  hardly works on modern Windows now. 

       Now using Substances  It never stops to amaze me how inconvenient everything is there.  Every small detail, every feature is done like in some other universe  with totally different CG industry with lots of irrelevant features and core things inconvenient as hell.

    So far Blender only real advantage is it's free  and imo just a tad bit  more simple/easy to use.
    And that alone makes you  just  not hating  it so much  vs   Autodesk soft  which is 25 years later still  is as user experience nightmare  as it has always been  and in same "dry water"  category.   Even having a few local advantages here and there.
  • quockhanhlk
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    quockhanhlk polycounter lvl 11
    Answer is no. Maya is going to killed itself if anything. If you're aiming for a place at a specific studio, find out what they use and learn that software(s). General 3d knowledge is transferable, while software efficiency is not.
  • Neox
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    Neox godlike master sticky
    Mink said:
    Epic Games in particular seems extremely interested in seeing the software grow in terms of industry applicability. 
    While this might be true, blender is not used in their productions in significant capacity. We worked on Fortnite among other things for 5 years and its just not used.The pipeline is software agnostic on the modelling part.
    The occasional freelancer does use blender, but as the animation pipeline is based on maya, that is where it's at.

  • Benjammin
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    Benjammin greentooth
    As long as pipelines are dominated by fbx, Blender isn't taking over. 
    Yes yes, Blender can use FBX, but the import/export functionality for it is reverse engineered and janky. You can do static asset creation without much trouble, but its not reliable for animation and rigging, AFAIK.
  • thomasp
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    thomasp hero character
    Benjammin said:
    As long as pipelines are dominated by fbx, Blender isn't taking over. 

    Are they though? Pretty much everywhere I worked custom file formats were used for export - as well as inhouse engines. FBX was a mandatory tool to transfer between Max and Maya at some places. Outside Unreal and Unity is it really such a big thing though?
    Looking at the games I consume as well as those I just casually check out, the majority clearly seems to be made using inhouse engines and presumably fully inhouse pipelines to this day.

    Not disputing Blender not taking over btw.

  • xrg
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    xrg polycounter lvl 10
    There is an inexpensive addon that has better FBX support. I don't deal with FBX much, so I can't vouch for how good or bad it is, though.
  • blenderphunk
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    blenderphunk polycounter lvl 2
    For me, it's not an "either or" situation where there must be only one king of the hill. IMO, the hill is big enough for multiple apps.

    Blender and Maya can trace their roots back nearly 30 years. Maya's dominance and foothold is really an issue of timing more than anything else.

    In Maya's case, it origins go as far back as 1988's PowerAnimator from Alias. So, by the time Autodesk released Maya v1.0 in 1999, the underlying core had already been battle hardened and field tested for nearly a decade. Maya's pedigree extends far beyond its v1.0.

    In Blender's case, yes, it technically has been around since 1994 - almost 28 years now. However, Blender wasn't anywhere close to being production ready by that time. Yes. While some projects (eg. "Spider-Man 2") used it on a limited basis, Blender wasn't really powerful enough until v2.5x in 2011. The UI/UX alone was far too clunky before that.

    The fact remains that Blender has only reached a point of relative maturity 10 years ago. So, while just Blender was starting to get used in real movie and game productions, Maya (and PowerAnimator before it) already had skin in the game for a good 20+ years.

    If anything, though both apps have been for nearly as long, Blender's journey is really only starting. Blender as it exists today, is a FAR different beast both technologically and cosmetically than it was pre-v2.49. Maya, by comparison, still retains some of its design and core aesthetic from as far back as 1997's PowerAnimator v8.

    What does this mean for Blender? I guess that all depends on Autodesk, right?

    If they continue to fail to see Blender as a viable alternative to their own kit then Maya will start to stagnate and even lag behind. It's one thing to get to the top of the mountain. Staying there is even harder. Autodesk needs to be more responsive. It needs to address lingering customer complaints; to fix what's broken or outdated.

    That doesn't mean that Blender will dethrone Maya. In fact, it's not that binary. They can share the hill. However, whether or not Blender is allowed to share that same rarified space really depends on how much room Maya inadvertantly creates for competition. IMO, I don't see Maya going anywhere, but I do see them becoming a little complacent and unfocused. So assured of their market dominance. A little too so, tbh.

    FWIW, I say this as a Maya and Blender user for the past 10 years; I've actually been doing CG professionally for nearly 30, but that's another story.

    In the end, I would like to believe that there's room for multiple apps on any given project. After all, the results and satisfaction of the customer/client are really what matter most. Big team or small, if the issue of interoperability and the nuances data interchange can be worked out, there doesn't have to be an app war. Whether or not the team leaders or studio structure will allow for such flexibility is another issue entirely.

    Apps come and go. Blender will die eventually and so too will Maya. It's the nature of the beast. As an artist, you have to adapt to the ever changing landscape. Skill and experience will carry you far. It makes no sense to be in love with any one app. It certainly won't love you back. Provided that your circumstances will allow it, use whatever gets the job done.

    I think that, as far as Blender and the future are concerned, learning it is certainly better than not. Even if you're a Maya loyalist and believe that Maya will remain the future forever more, ignoring a powerful tool is a mistake. Just make sure that you've mastered one before you move onto the next.

    As far as trueSpace goes... They were pioneers to a certain extent. However, in truth, Caligari were really just the masters of starting features and not defining, refining, or fixing them. I was a trueSpace user for all 7 versions, alongside with C4D. Since as early as v4, trueSpace was often too broken and unfinished to use without constant saving or workarounds. It looked amazing - as an app - on a spec sheet and the promotional material, but trueSpace was largely held together by duct tape. More than that, you could never address the issue with Caligari support. I literally had 2 incidents where their staff had viciously berated me and even accused me (a paying customer) of piracy. So happy their gone. Not many other developers that unresponsive and hostile to its base. (A few, but I won't call them out here.)

  • Benjammin
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    Benjammin greentooth
    thomasp said:
    Benjammin said:
    As long as pipelines are dominated by fbx, Blender isn't taking over. 

    Are they though? Pretty much everywhere I worked custom file formats were used for export - as well as inhouse engines. FBX was a mandatory tool to transfer between Max and Maya at some places. Outside Unreal and Unity is it really such a big thing though?
    Looking at the games I consume as well as those I just casually check out, the majority clearly seems to be made using inhouse engines and presumably fully inhouse pipelines to this day.

    Not disputing Blender not taking over btw.

    That's cool. Unreal is pretty popular these days, as is substance - both of which benefit greatly from using FBX. 
    At the end of the day though, no software is taking over anything, because it just doesn't work that way, and no one should want it to - More options = more competition = more innovation.
  • poopipe
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    poopipe grand marshal polycounter
    Benjammin said:
    As long as pipelines are dominated by fbx, Blender isn't taking over. 
    Yes yes, Blender can use FBX, but the import/export functionality for it is reverse engineered and janky. You can do static asset creation without much trouble, but its not reliable for animation and rigging, AFAIK.
    Blender can't use the autodesk SDK because of licensing which is why the supplied exporter/importer is shit. 

    Implementing an FBX exporter/importer for blender using the Autodesk SDK would be trivial. If a studio seriously wants to push Blender into their pipeline they'll write their own - which they can because they're not beholden to the terms of the license. 




  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Some much needed clearing up : At this time, the provided FBX exporter is absolutely compatible with UE4/5 and Unity ; blendshapes are supported, animations are supported, and so on. Any claim of the opposite is to be taken with a huge grain of salt, and likely comes from a misunderstanding of the settings (leaf bones).

    I have been dealing with UE4/5 and Blender for a few years now, working with character content natively compatible with the Epic Male Mannequin and didn't even need the special third-party exporter once. The provided one has been working as intended for as long as I have been using it (2.7x). I do not animate, but can confirm that as far as skeletal meshes are concerned, everything is functionning.

    Of course that doesn't mean that this reverse engineered exporter has *always* been working as expected. But at this current  time, it absolutely does (at least in the context of UE).

    - - - - -

    As for the OP : for Batman's sake, there's zero need to worry about that kind of stuff or speculate about things you've "heard". Try what's available and use what you feel is the most fitting to your workflow *today*. Then make great work with it, and ... that's it really.

    As for "will it last" : of course it will, it is open source. Had XSI been open source you'd have 1000s of people using it today (and some programmers maintaining it) if only just because of the popularity of Vitaly Bulgarov's work. 
  • Benjammin
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    Benjammin greentooth
    poopipe said:

    Blender can't use the autodesk SDK because of licensing which is why the supplied exporter/importer is shit. 

    Implementing an FBX exporter/importer for blender using the Autodesk SDK would be trivial. If a studio seriously wants to push Blender into their pipeline they'll write their own - which they can because they're not beholden to the terms of the license. 

    Yeah, I was aware of the reason. 

    pior said:
    Some much needed clearing up : At this time, the provided FBX exporter is absolutely compatible with UE4/5 and Unity ; blendshapes are supported, animations are supported, and so on. Any claim of the opposite is to be taken with a huge grain of salt, and likely comes from a misunderstanding of the settings (leaf bones).

    I have been dealing with UE4/5 and Blender for a few years now, working with character content natively compatible with the Epic Male Mannequin and didn't even need the special third-party exporter once. The provided one has been working as intended for as long as I have been using it (2.7x). I do not animate, but can confirm that as far as skeletal meshes are concerned, everything is functionning.

    Of course that doesn't mean that this reverse engineered exporter has *always* been working as expected. But at this current  time, it absolutely does (at least in the context of UE).

    Great, glad to hear it. Pretty sure I qualified my post  with ''As far as I know'' because I am not an animator or rigger, so I guess my second hand info was out of date.  
    Frankly I loathe Blender, so maybe I sounded defensive. That doesn't mean I don't want it to be an option for others however. Maya is my go-to, but I'm well aware of its flaws. 
  • Mink
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    Mink polycounter lvl 6
    Frankly I Loathe Blender.









    Lmao why?

  • Benjammin
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    Benjammin greentooth
    Yeah, I'm not interested in having a 'which software is better and why' debate. Have a nice day :) 
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