How should we teach new artist to be classically trained in the fundamentals of art?
polycounter lvl 3
Good day everyone. I understand this question has been asked several times. I understand it is not the first and it definitely won't be the last and I also understand you guys have an extensive Wiki. I am actually not new to the art world. I have plenty of experience. I have been doing art for more than a decade. However, most people still think I am new. I am simply self taught and I am simply not very good at it. Now I know everyone SAYS that they are not very good, but most professional artist I show my work to think I am new. They say "you have not been doing this very long have you." I tell them I have been training for 10 years straight and my learning methods have diminishing returns.
When less experienced people ask me how do I draw the things I do, I always say "You need to become classily trained and draw from life." Most will ask me how to do that. And I always say the same thing. "I don't know, I just looked up random things on the internet and practiced a lot. That is why I am not very good myself." Then I'll see them fill an entire sketchbook with anime. No understanding of perspective, depth, foreshortening, balance, etc. You all know what I mean. Then I go "No dude, draw real things." Then they start drawing people. Then I say "No, you need to draw simple things first." Then they'll draw something they think is simple but is actually very complex. Like a gun or a an entire city block. Then I say, "No no, you must learn about line, shape and form, color theory etc." I'll say something like, "Try to draw a can or a bottle at 45 degree angles all the way around and see you can retain proportions and perspective by making a small flipbook. I dunno." But that's really the limit to what I can give them. I can give them resources I personally think are good like Ctrl+Paint or the Dynamic Anatomy book.
Again, I feel this brute force method of learning have diminishing returns. When I ask artist who are more advanced than me, they generally say...
"Here is a list of every resource that has ever been made in all of human history since the beginning of time, just read all of it, any of it, I don't care, I had to bleed myself dry to learn this stuff so you must do the same. It's not my job to spoonfeed you." I believe most people are saying "I want to maximize productivity and growth efficiency when I learn things." What the experts hear is "I want to be a lazy fuckoff who doesn't want to work for anything in life." I do not believe this is how most people think. I do believe most people are willing to put in the work.
I don't want to treat people like this. I don't want people to have to go through the same existential struggle I did, and there are plenty of people who have studied art for only a couple years time at a proper institution and they can run circles around me. I do not feel my resources are sufficient. We are in the age of information and we can get any resource we want literally in seconds. However we must accept that some resources are move valuable for beginners than others. When I ask the highest class of experts what resources are good for beginners, they normally give the same answers.
If you want to start life drawing, read Betty Edwards, Drawing on the Right Side of the brain. And don't draw images from computer screens or books. Make sure there is a healthy set of drawings you have drawn directly from life. Why life? Because you can draw it from multiple angles and create a flipbook so proportions are immediately noticeable. You even have a better sense of scale and methods for determining perspective.
If you want to be a concept artist, watch Sycra and Feng Zuh. Keep in mind I feel like Feng Zuh should only be seen if you already a handle on the fundamentals.
If you want to start animation, read the Illusion of Life.
If you want to learn how to model for games, read the Marmoset website and the EarthQuake threads.
to summarize, my question is, when teaching someone to understand the elements of art, are there any resources that are unanimously praised by the elite class of talent? I'm sorry this is so long but I want everyone to understand, and know how new people see things. Technology is advancing and the human race is becoming faster and I want the younger people learning from us to learn it faster.
EDIT 1: Also, show progress! It helps to see HOW one is evolving. That way we can refine the areas that need improvement.
EDIT 2: Get into Pinterest. Don't just upload your own stuff, but look at other people's stuff as well. It helps to see all the different styles and viewpoints side by side and it makes it easier to distinguish each other.
When less experienced people ask me how do I draw the things I do, I always say "You need to become classily trained and draw from life." Most will ask me how to do that. And I always say the same thing. "I don't know, I just looked up random things on the internet and practiced a lot. That is why I am not very good myself." Then I'll see them fill an entire sketchbook with anime. No understanding of perspective, depth, foreshortening, balance, etc. You all know what I mean. Then I go "No dude, draw real things." Then they start drawing people. Then I say "No, you need to draw simple things first." Then they'll draw something they think is simple but is actually very complex. Like a gun or a an entire city block. Then I say, "No no, you must learn about line, shape and form, color theory etc." I'll say something like, "Try to draw a can or a bottle at 45 degree angles all the way around and see you can retain proportions and perspective by making a small flipbook. I dunno." But that's really the limit to what I can give them. I can give them resources I personally think are good like Ctrl+Paint or the Dynamic Anatomy book.
Again, I feel this brute force method of learning have diminishing returns. When I ask artist who are more advanced than me, they generally say...
"Here is a list of every resource that has ever been made in all of human history since the beginning of time, just read all of it, any of it, I don't care, I had to bleed myself dry to learn this stuff so you must do the same. It's not my job to spoonfeed you." I believe most people are saying "I want to maximize productivity and growth efficiency when I learn things." What the experts hear is "I want to be a lazy fuckoff who doesn't want to work for anything in life." I do not believe this is how most people think. I do believe most people are willing to put in the work.
I don't want to treat people like this. I don't want people to have to go through the same existential struggle I did, and there are plenty of people who have studied art for only a couple years time at a proper institution and they can run circles around me. I do not feel my resources are sufficient. We are in the age of information and we can get any resource we want literally in seconds. However we must accept that some resources are move valuable for beginners than others. When I ask the highest class of experts what resources are good for beginners, they normally give the same answers.
If you want to start life drawing, read Betty Edwards, Drawing on the Right Side of the brain. And don't draw images from computer screens or books. Make sure there is a healthy set of drawings you have drawn directly from life. Why life? Because you can draw it from multiple angles and create a flipbook so proportions are immediately noticeable. You even have a better sense of scale and methods for determining perspective.
If you want to be a concept artist, watch Sycra and Feng Zuh. Keep in mind I feel like Feng Zuh should only be seen if you already a handle on the fundamentals.
If you want to start animation, read the Illusion of Life.
If you want to learn how to model for games, read the Marmoset website and the EarthQuake threads.
to summarize, my question is, when teaching someone to understand the elements of art, are there any resources that are unanimously praised by the elite class of talent? I'm sorry this is so long but I want everyone to understand, and know how new people see things. Technology is advancing and the human race is becoming faster and I want the younger people learning from us to learn it faster.
EDIT 1: Also, show progress! It helps to see HOW one is evolving. That way we can refine the areas that need improvement.
EDIT 2: Get into Pinterest. Don't just upload your own stuff, but look at other people's stuff as well. It helps to see all the different styles and viewpoints side by side and it makes it easier to distinguish each other.
Replies
and to all the new modelers out there, please PLEASE stop using xNormal when you want to learn normal map baking for the first time. Use literally anything else. You are making your life harder than it needs to be. You will learn so much quicker.
I do not understand what this means. But it is not the first time I have heard this so I feel it is valuable. Can you please elaborate.
Now again, I'm not asking for some holy grail formula. Just what processes have been widely endorsed.
I am looking through your work and you are clearly very experienced in modeling. If it works for you, that's cool. But new modelers should learn how to make proper meshes UV layouts and cages before trying to utilize the benefits xNormal has to offer.
You are not special, you just have refused to do the scary thing which is look at the self and figure out which parts need to go back to the drawing board. This prevents a person from learning.
You don't need anybody to do you a favor and you don't need any secret knowledges. You only need to learn how to learn. It is the same process for any subject. Whether you want to make art or be a mechanic or play a sport or anything else.
I'd take on something that is scary as fuck and commit to learning it. Once you figure out how to observe the self and change behavior then you can learn anything.
In short, your reluctance to look inward and make changes to your thinking habits is only thing that prevents learning. Stop blaming people who do so much to help others for free.
I do not have this luxury. I live alone in a small community and we have very little money. But I do have plenty of time. I'm willing to put in the work. I just don't want my efforts to get sucked into a black hole. My community is small and no one does art around here. There are people who have asked me to help them with art who has even less time in their life to practice than I do. You are right. I'm not special. This isn't just about me. This is about everyone who doesn't have the luxury and privilege's afforded to most people who become successful artist. What about them. What can we do for them?
Here is the tutorial I watched.
Who is the "we" in the thread title ? And does the OP belong to the "we" part, or to the "new artist" part ?
Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent.
B: I know this may blow everyone's mind, but not everyone has money. Most of my shit is pirated or things that were uploaded to Pinterest and Google drive. I can barely afford the books and It makes no sense for me to sink unholy amounts of time into something that yields diminishing returns. At least until I can find a stable job.
I'm just asking for a little consensus. My methods allow other people to learn faster than I did. Are they pro yet, no, but it's n00bs teaching n00bs. It's just something we're going to have to work around.
And just so you know I do this as a hobby. I'm not Bobby Kotick's prisoner.
Time has nothing to do with it. You can do it for 100 years and still remain at a beginner level. And it has also nothing to do with being a hobbyist. When your goal was the pro level in result, and you didn't manage to reach this level in 10 years then you did most obviously something wrong.
It's not even a question of talent. Making 3D art or art in general is in fact 99% handcraft. Boring repetititve work. And this technical parts can all be learned. There is no consensus though, not a little bit pregnant. Either you learn it, or you don't. What you do with these techniques is then another question.
But out of curiosity, why do you put yourself under such a pressure when your goal is just to be a hobbyist? Why not simply accept, okay, this is my current art level, eveything else would mean much more effort that i am willing and able to spend at. And simply move on?
If a lot of "elite class" artists (please don't call it that) recommend certain resources, you should probably read or watch it.
If you want to teach - teach. For free, payed, up to you. But just do it. It doesn't matter how.
Want to learn fundamentals? Type "Art Fundamentals" on Youtube - it's free - there are a 1000 videos.
Yes technology is evolving a lot and fast - but people need to learn how to learn - it's the most important skill
And last, use xNormal if you want to use xNormal. At least in the Game Industry, no one cares if you use it or another software. What gets the job done, gets the job done.
I generally tell people not do draw, but rather "construct" their phone or their keys or knives. Why? Because they are essentially 2D objects. If they draw these things, they will only have to worry about proportions, angles and curves. They won't have to worry about perspective, value, color, lighting, etc. You can first tell them, draw a phone. Phones are explicitly designed to be simple in form, especially apple phones. The first one will not make sense, but if you stand my their side, then you can point out what macro level changes could fix it. For example, notice the phone's proportion is a 1:2 ratio. Do it again. Now notice that the corners all have bevels on them. Do it again. Now think about how thin the buttons are. Do it again. Bit by bit.
When drawing perspective, people should draw their 2d-like object propped up against something. But only use a block to represent the proportion without any details. Your current view is a camera and all perspective lines are either parallel or perpendicular to each other. Once their mind can adapt to this concept, then they can do things like draw in the curvature and detail on the perspective plane.
The idea is to get people to intuitively understand 1 principle at a time instead of frontloading them with everything at once and progress needs to be tracked, compared, monitored and analyze
Think of getting people to adapt to manual modeling. The idea of raycast, plane angles relative to a raycast angle and what's built off of them is similar to the way computers construct models. This method can insure new people can verify mistakes instead of just having to rely on someone who can spot them with half a millennia's worth of experience.
Can you please ask a concise question - summed up in one, short sentence?
About your points you've made above:
- The learning process can definitely be accelerated and it is already happening, a lot.
- Also I think you have absolutely no idea about the industry - If you project your opinions outwards but you have literally no experience with it, I'd be more thoughtful about what you say. Not because you offend anyone because let's be honest, no one cares. More because it sounds like you like to say things into the void without proper research, knowledge and experience.
I don't want to end this on a negative note. If you feel like you can help people reach their art goals and accompany them on their art journey - that's a good thing! But be mindful of how you approach people - be mindful of how you communicate - try to understand what they need and where they need help without enforcing totally random things on them.Look at schools like Brainstorm - they teach online (in person without Covid). I took classes with them and they focus heavy on the fundamentals, taught by some of the best industry professionals. It's extremely effective teaching.
Good luck
educators are like the least paid and least appreciated people in society. Add onto that the fact that these are artist too.
Maybe you haven't learned anything in 10 years because you are just too lazy?
Everyone needs a second pair of eyes, even a senior artist. You can post work in progress on Polycount and get feedback from people whether it's 2D or 3D. You can ask specific questions about your artwork like, "Is my anatomy working?" or "have I approached the shadows correctly." You said you use Discord, there are LOADS of discord groups that do the same thing as Polycount and help artists improve. The only difficult part is letting go of your ego and accepting that feedback
And if anyone had the golden formula for art, we would have a factory popping out Picasos. But let me help you with some things I learned myself, as a self taught 3d artist. I believe nobody can dispute against this knowledge, so take it as widely accepted.
You need to establish a base process. Trying random stuff is chaotic, and might get you tired without learning. Start simple, set a few things you will be doing in every piece of art you make, and try taking it further every time. It's what we call divide and conquer. If you have any more questions, ask freely