RSI from 3d modeling / Wacom tablet advice
polycounter lvl 9
Hi, I've been doing 3d modeling for a while now in my spare time and I have a real problem with RSI. The nature of 3d modeling using Maya and Zbrush and painting textures in Photoshop naturally means I'm clicking away constantly and over time it aggravates my tendons. I've been doing some RSI stretches, I do Yoga about twice a wk and I force myself to take regular breaks every 30 mins or so for about 5 mins all of which helps keep it at bay, but I notice after a hard slog at modeling for several hours I have noticeable discomfort the next day.
Wondering if any of you guys struggle with this as well? I am a bit of a worry wart admittedly and I'd like to work as a 3D artist one day but if I was successful in landing a gig I'd want to be sure I can cope with long hours of 3D artistry without damaging my body and having to give up on my dream job.
Looking online I was noticing some people talking about Wacom tablets that really help, I might consider investing in one if it will help, god knows it would help immensely from an artistic perspective. But what about modeling hard surfaces in Maya, and just using the general Maya UI with a tablet how do you guys find it? Can I do everything that I do with a mouse on a PC with a tablet as well?
I haven't really used a stylus pen before so I just wonder if it would be cumbersome to use using the viewport cam in Maya.
Wondering if any of you guys struggle with this as well? I am a bit of a worry wart admittedly and I'd like to work as a 3D artist one day but if I was successful in landing a gig I'd want to be sure I can cope with long hours of 3D artistry without damaging my body and having to give up on my dream job.
Looking online I was noticing some people talking about Wacom tablets that really help, I might consider investing in one if it will help, god knows it would help immensely from an artistic perspective. But what about modeling hard surfaces in Maya, and just using the general Maya UI with a tablet how do you guys find it? Can I do everything that I do with a mouse on a PC with a tablet as well?
I haven't really used a stylus pen before so I just wonder if it would be cumbersome to use using the viewport cam in Maya.
Replies
A stylus can alleviate that a little by letting you perform this action slightly differently. This is worth a try, as well as a vertical mouse.
That said you might also be interested in giving Blender a try, leaving it all by default just to check its unusual input system for move/scale/rotate. It consists of tapping a key (G for move aka "grab"), moving the mouse around to perform the action (without any click needed), and confirming - similarly to some CAD software. This is extremely light on the hands as you don't need to ever hold a click down and never need to move the mouse around with all these fingers clenched on it. After getting familiar with the default keys for a little while you can then either adopt them, or remap them to a hybrid setup relying on the usual QWER but still leveraging the Blender "key tapping" paradigm. This is what I have been doing for a couple of years now (previously using Max with Maya-style input) and it's really nice.
Doing such tests can seem like a daunting task of course, especially if you weren't planning to try a new app ; It could be worth it though.
I should also probably mention that I used to have sharp wrist pain myself from Photoshop use when using it with a regular tablet, which I reverted back to after having issues with Cintiqs which sometimes caused me mild visual discomfort. Turns out that the best solution for me is simply to have them both plugged at the same time (regular tablet + Cintiq), and using either/or when best suited for the task.
I would suggest examining all of these, and correcting incorrect physical habits ASAP.
Also check your mouse configuration. I switched to a vertical mouse (less forearm twist), and remapped middle button to a thumb button (lots of middle clicking is really tough on the hand & wrist).
No, I mean that in order to move something in Blender, you first tap a key (G for move by default), then just move the mouse around to perform the operation without having to hold down any mouse button (imagine just lightly holding your mouse like when browsing a website for instance) ; and then confirm. So it's not so much replacing the mouse button by a key, but rather bypassing the need to ever hold a clickdown.
I use a razer gamepad and map the mouse buttons to keys on that - the nice thing is that it works across all apps, you can set up different shortcut sets per app etc.
its the best 70quid ive ever spent on peripherals
P.S. I regularly use all the programs you mentioned: Maya, ZBrush, Photoshop
This is something I'm struggling to get my head around, I guess I won't know until I try it. it's good to hear you can use it for the 3 main programs I use but I can imagine it will take some time to get used to. When I changed to a vert mouse for work even that took some getting used to, I still don't feel my vert mouse is as easy to control as a normal mouse but it's fine.
The razer software covers all of it, it makes the keypad send a mouseclick so you don't have to do anything to Maya or whatever
I found the cause of most inaccuracies with the vertical mouse to be that you tend to nudge the mouse when clicking. It's a particular issue in Maya because the point clicked bears fuck all relation to where the end of the cursor is on screen.
Using the keypad resolves that because you're not clicking the button anymore
Do you remember what was a solution? I tried evry advice I googled. Nothing helps . Every time I switch from a mouse to wacom pen I see that damn keyboard popping notwithstanding I already checked it off in every possible settings checkbox . The thing had started after certain windows update and never gone.
I blame Wacom for this crap tbh. My crappy knockoff cintiq has drivers that dont argue with windows
Try
Open Start, type: CMD
Right click CMD
Click Run as Administrator
At the command prompt, type the following command then hit Enter:
sc config "TabletInputService" start= disabled
sc stop "TabletInputService"
When you want to enable it, go to the command prompt then enter the following commands.
sc config "TabletInputService" start= auto
sc start "TabletInputService
Cheerio
I killed tablet service and it did help with popping up keyboard. Thanks for the advice. But then other issues surfaced > I can't select and paste a text in a number of other applications for some uncertain reason. Still have to drop the pen and grab my mouse regularly. It still looks like Microsoft is in a secret war with Wacom
I am a maya user. I use logitech software to make that side button a toggle, so similar to the blender function I only have to click once, move a thing, then click again to toggle.
In maya too you also want to be aware of how you can use middle mouse to move the last selected axis - this saves having to precision select axis which cuts down on fine motor movement significantly. In addition to that I edit the manipulators to be big and fat and have a high preselection radius - again this cuts down the need for fine motor control.
I am sure others are right about general posture but I slouch like a bum most the day. In general I try to switch things up so that I don't do super heavy things like unwrapping for hours at a time. To me that makes the biggest difference.
And here is a chance for another power to the people rant: If you guys who model for a living are regularly getting RSI I'd complain to the boss that it's too much workload. People getting hurt is no good for business so spread the tedious workload out more.
Hi, bumping up this thread from a while back:
So I bought a wacom tablet and after getting my head around using it for Maya / general PC use I’ve gotten used to it.
I do quite like using a pen for everything it feels more natural and somehow more precise with your cursor movements.
Unfortunately though I am still getting RSI with it. The problem is the long hours I spend using a computer.
I work from home 3 days a week and try to use the tablet most of the time but when I’ve finished work I like to indulge my hobby of 3d modelling so it means I’m spending long hours (up to 12) using a wacom pen or mouse and my hand / forearm complain a lot about the excessive use.
The 2 days in the office I use a vertical mouse which I also like. I force myself to take regular breaks and do RSI stretches everyday, yet the problem still persists.
My question is does anyone else here find they still get RSI despite using a wacom pen?
I was googling about writer’s cramp as people can get it from holding a pen and writing all day as well as the mouse.
To be honest, it kind of depresses me I still would love to get employed as a 3d artist one day but to do that I would need to really practice a lot in my spare time which means long hours in front of the PC which my brain loves but my hands hate.
I just wonder even if I was lucky enough to get the job of my dreams whether this problem would get in the way of the long hours I want to put in to get good.
I don’t actually mind the physical discomfort, it’s that it might get worse with continued use and that it’s damaging my body that worries me.
Man, nothing in my life is ever simple, lol. I also have some bad mental health issues which causes my body to be really tense which I think exasperates the RSI.
I had this problem initially when I started using a tablet for painting.
What helped me is being very conscious of how tightly I was holding the pen, and how hard I was pressing down.
I started forcing myself to unlearn that tight grip, loosen up and grip/press as lightly as possible.
Then I adjusted the tablet sensitivity to match the decreased pressure, and it really helped!
as shit as it sounds now. drop either your job or your hobby, neither it worth destroying your body for.
the strain you put onto your body will put you out of either, the hobby or the job eventually. take a chill pill, do something else.
You should stop whatever you are doing the minute there's physical discomfort. Working through it is only going to make the problems worse. RSI stretches can really help, as well as any exercises involving the wrist. Try walking and/or breathing exercises when tense.
Also, take the necessary time to evaluate your workflow and the behavior of the software you use. Any action requiring to hold a mouse (or stylus) button (be it left, right, or middle) while precisely moving the cursor should be eliminated.
Give Blender a try, as it allows for all transforms to be done CAD-style, without having to ever hold down a click. This is quite life-changing.
And as mentionned by others, indeed you should definitely stop any action that causes any pain.
(For the record : I too used to suffer from wrist and back/shoulder/leg pain while working ... until I started to proactively look for alternatives for anything that caused pain, which meant changing desk, chair, and software. FWIW I have been work-pain free for about 10 years now).
This solved it for me. Not so easy to do tho. Get your phone to ding you every 10 mins as a reminder to relax until you are pain free.
Yeah this is a good idea, I actually do it a bit already but not all the time. I do think being a tense person makes this problem worse.
Well, it probably has less to do with being a tense person and more to do with compensating for a lack of precision/poor UX of the tools.
For instance I would bet that these tense grip moments are likely related to precise manipulator operations (like grabbing a vert and click-down-dragging it over a specific point in space). It's a bit similar to how some 2d artists grew used to undo-ing/re-doing their strokes multiple times (almost at random) just to compensate for the lack of precision/blind feedback of regular tablets, which are orders of magnitude less precise than a regular pencil on paper.
Perhaps this is all caused by peer pressure : "if other people can do it with these tools, then I too should be able to" - leading to an acceptance of tools and workflows that are not only performing poorly, but also are hazardous to ones health ...
there is also the 12 hours a day factor. There isn't anything you can do that frequently that won't adversely affect your body. Eating, sleeping, sitting, walking, making love... anything you do that much is going to be a problem.
It’s not as simple as that I need my job to pay the rent / survive. It’s not like I could just easily find some other job that doesn’t involve the use of a computer, what would I do become a plumber?
Also as for giving up on my dreams, not really an option, what would then be the point in living?
If a prof sportsperson gave up their chosen sport the moment they got an injury their career wouldn’t last very long.
Sometimes it’s about working around a problem, there are always alternatives.
It’s very true, but as I mentioned before giving up on my dream job just isn’t an option. There must be a solution to this problem, I have to find it / them.
Yes the solution is to slow down and focus on the more important part, which sounds like the job atm. Is there anything you can do to get your job closer to your hobby?
But really I have been there, you dont want to end in both, yes both, arms in casts for either. Your Job or your hobby.
There is value in rest, there is value in inspiration elsewhere, there is value in not working all the time.
I was unable to do anything for months, believe me i tried, it did not work. When the first wrist gave in, i tried to compensate with my left, took 2 weeks for it to be worse than the other. What worked was taking it slower.
Well, what about sharing some pictures of your workstation, and some footage of you working on it, showing both your screen and your hands ? There's obviously something that you're doing (not obvious to you, but perhaps obvious to others) that is causing the stress and pain.
(and I stand by the opinion that this is probably all linked to mouse click-and-hold-and-drag).
i'd expect that working 8 hours instead of 12 might get you to your goal faster. you could try out a schedule change for a couple weeks and measure progress.
I could do that in the weekends but I work 8 hrs a day during the wk, so the 12 hrs is the 3-4 hrs I do 3d modelling after my shift.
I do have a break for dinner in between that, so it gives my tendons a chance to rest.
Ok food for thought, thx. I am a fan / believer of the philosophy of less is more.
Last year, after 10 years of full time 3D modeling, my mouse clicking finger started to experience sharp pain every time I clicked that wouldn't go away.
3 months of no improvement I realized it was time to really solve this problem.
I tried so many different mice, gloves etc... Nothing off the shelf worked long term. Fortunately, eventually I found a setup that did.
What worked for me was building a custom capacitive touch mouse. I don't click a mouse anymore, I simply lightly touch the surface.
I bought 2 of these usb capacitive touch switches from amazon and bound them to left and right click.
That sounds pretty cool, please share details about that !
So credit goes to this VFX artist from youtube, originally I wasn't sure how to solve this but it seemed like he did all of the experimentation so I didn't have to.
Here is a link to the youtube video by Burton that helped guide me to using capacitive touch to solve my specific clicking issue when using a mouse. His final/real solution is at the 9:05 mark in the video.
Link to video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wH12gU1e2g
He seems to have a bit of familiarity with soldering so he made his own custom setup. I was about to buy a whole soldering set to do the same thing, but then I saw that amazon had some usb capacitive touch switches that shipped out of Japan.
I bought 2 of these switches (the key binding software wasn't provided, but I was able to find it on github through their site).
I basically glued these 2 cube-shaped switches onto a working mouse that fit my hand.
It's not a pretty solution, but it has been working for me so far. The capacitive usb switches seems a bit pricey (the price went up 100% since I last purchased them), but I would have paid 10x more because I was desperate to solve my issue.
Here is a link to the usb capacitive switch I used from Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009E0KFL6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Side note on the usb switch from amazon:
The usb switch product is poorly documented, and it's only in Japanese. So I had to use a translator. The actual software to set up the keybinding is missing from the official site, but if you search their github page using the product number it show up. (not user friendly)
My situation was fairly extreme so this solution is probably not appropriate for most people.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing !
The most recent small Arduinos controllers can be set to behave as a HID (Human interface = USB keyboard/mouse) - meaning that a very low profile solution could be developped, with very small touch sensors on top of the mouse (which is pretty much what is shown in the video). Very clever stuff, definitely adding it to the list of things to try eventually :)
https://www.deviceplus.com/arduino/can-arduino-make-usb-devices-try-using-the-hid-function-with-arduino-pro-micro-leonardo-2/
And it's great that you found an alternative solution that works out of the box too.
(Now that said I still believe that holding down on a capacitive switch could still be more stressful than being able to fully release the finger CAD-style, because the hand still has to move the mouse at the same time).
https://www.rgbkb.net/products/mki2c-modules?variant=38222795964568
these things (among others I'm sure) exist - being QMK compatible means you have a huge amount of flexibility in terms of programming and don't have the risks associated with installing stuff from a google drive linked off Ali-express
Interesting, good to know there’s other options out there. The capacitive touch mouse, do you not push a button down at all but just touch the sensors is that right?
Does it work with Maya do you know? I don’t know much about mapping mouse buttons in maya.
with most stuff like this the device firmware sends a standard button/key/slide/scroll input so application compatibility isn't an issue
Yea, exactly what pipe said above. The 2 capacitive sensors I am using are recognized as a mouse left and right click on any computer that would normally recognize a mouse. (I have to do the initial setup 1 time, after that it works on all computer devices that support a mice)
If anyone finds a mouse that doesn't use a contact blade to produce the "click" noise on press and release please let me know.
The click sound in a traditional mice is a physical vibration that my hand can no longer tolerate easily. My current solution works fine so for now it will do until something else starts causing problems.
wouldnt the apple mouse work this way? its a touch sensor even with gesture support. the question is does it run on pc?
I didn’t read it all. 30+ years of computer work let me hear you anyway.
I figured out the importance of correct angle. The angle of upper arm, lower arm and how your wrist is bended. Only one or two centimetres can make a big, big difference. From chair AND table
My advice #1 is: A motorised table!
Height adjustment or/and changing from sitting to standing work position is super important for me. I bought just the the motorised frame in L form and build my stuff on it. 140kg is quite necessary. I have 2 24” and one Cintiq, plus quite huge active loudspeaker, plus laptop, lan switch and way too often my cat to lift.
All this helps a lot to find perfect position.