Taking an art test - is this situation odd?

carrottoptw

Hey, I'm a fresh graduate and I sent my work to a games company the other day who were after a "character artist", I won't say the name of the company, but the job listing is still up on the artstation incase anyone fancied searching it yourself and giving me their thoughts on it.  The company got back to me saying they liked my work and that they would like me to take a 3 day art test.  I've initially said yes by email.

However in my rush and excitement to start applying for jobs I never actually vetted the company I was applying to whose asked for this test - I stupidly just sent my cv, cover letter, portfolio.  

Anyway I looked up the website of the company and there is literally nothing on it to even indicate what they do.  The careers sections has one other job posted below the one I had applied to and theres a contact page... other than that its almost blank.  The 'About' section of the site has 13 words about the company.  There are no images or showreel or anything to indicate past work/clients and no info about the company/ceo/team are there.

Whats more is the email I received from the boss started with a bizarre 10 worded way of selling their company to me followed by "...we would like you to take an art test.".  The boss made no mention of their past work and didn't ask me if I had any questions about the company, just a very brief few words about what the art test would entail ("concept, sculpt, texture") and what my availability for it was.  Lastly there was a line about there being over 100 applicants and how I am one of the few to be given the opportunity.  But I'm not sure how there could be 100 applicants if a company website doesnt have any info on it... then again it could be 100 desperate grads

Also 3 days seems a bit short for an art test for a character artist job, by the bosses' breakdown of the test ("concept, sculpt, texture") I'm just wondering how well it can be executed in the time frame of what I assume is from 9am-5pm.  Obviously this excludes any AAA stuff lol

I realise its my foolishness for being blindly eager in the first place but is this a bad sign in general??  Honestly it sounds a bit odd I just wanted some advice on if I should go into this with caution.  I've asked for some more information about the company and the test in general but theres been silence since lol
 

Alex_J

There is essential information you need to make your decision. So don't play a guessing game or waste time mulling over words. Just get straight to the point.

"Hi thanks for getting back to me and I'm happy you've found my work satisfactory. Before I commit to an art test though, I need to prioritize my time a bit. I've applied to many companies and have a few art test lined up. In deciding which to commit to, I am doing further research into each company.

I haven't been able to find a few pieces of important information about your company. Do you mind answering a few questions?

1. question 1

2. question 2, and so on.."

(questions are whatever information you've found lacking. For instance, "what projects have you published? how many employees do you retain? etc")

something like that^^^   their time is not more important than yours. Don't waste time fretting over whether or not you might be perceived as irreverent. You are the boss of you, so talk like the boss. You'll get respect that way, and if you don't, the person is a punk anyway.

carrottoptw

Thank you for the much needed advice @Alex Javor You're absolutely right and straight to the point was the way. The reply I got was more in detail after asking. Its a very new company only created 3-4 months ago and they want me to design and sculpt a character for there new game as a test.

Whilst I'll definitely be interested in taking the art test, its probably not a great fit even if I get the job as it would mean relocating to a different country and not being able to speak the language which I think for my first job out of uni would be like being thrown into the ocean and would be too drastic a change given my limited work experience at the moment.  But its nice to know when someone says you're desirable candidate 

Alex_J

Be sure to read the wiki about freelancing and art test. Lots of good advice there. Be sure to protect your valuable time and effort - don't deliver work without pay.

Ashervisalis

Alex Javor said:

Before I commit to an art test though, I need to prioritize my time a bit. I've applied to many companies and have a few art test lined up. In deciding which to commit to,

Don't say that.

Just email the company and ask them the questions about the company. Be straightforward. If you can't find anything about their company, they could be a startup or something. You don't to lie to this employer and say you're doing so many art tests because you're in such demand. If you are going to do the art test, do it, and then ask a billion questions in the interview.

Dunno about that time frame for a character though. Maybe if it was just a head or for a super low poly game? 3 days to sculpt, retopo, texture, is crazy.

carrottoptw

Ashervisalis said:

Dunno about that time frame for a character though. Maybe if it was just a head or for a super low poly game? 3 days to sculpt, retopo, texture, is crazy.

Yeah it does seem a bit crazy, and I still don't know the sort of style they're after until i get a brief I guess.  But they want me to design the character, sculpt and quickly texture it (no retopo needed) in 3 days working on a normal 8 hour day....

I haven't asked if it's paid or whether I'd be required to hand over the model created etc as I don't want to seem like a dick when I'm just starting out... and its good practice I suppose 

Ashervisalis

When you get the art test, do not be afraid to ask questions. My current supervisor said he favoured the applicants who asked questions. Also, nobody just spends 8 hours per day on an art test; most people spend every waking minute on it. If you dont need to retopo, are they asking you to texture using polypaint in ZBrush?

carrottoptw

Ashervisalis said:

When you get the art test, do not be afraid to ask questions. My current supervisor said he favoured the applicants who asked questions. Also, nobody just spends 8 hours per day on an art test; most people spend every waking minute on it. If you dont need to retopo, are they asking you to texture using polypaint in ZBrush?

@Ashervisalis - so should I spent every walking minute on it? Sorry was confused by what you meant.  The company told me to spend a normal day on it and in 8 hours, not 20... do people go crazy spending along time on it?

No retopo is needed in the test and I'm allowed to use whatever painting software I like

But thanks you again, I will ask questions! Sadly I won't be in house for the test so I'll be working remotely for it

Alex_J

Not suggesting to lie. "Something like that" is where I am saying, insert your own specifics. Just the general idea I am giving.

If you really don't have anything making pressing use of your time, I would still leave some implication that you value your time and avoid implications that you are desperate for work.

"

"

This isn't seeming like a dick. It's being a professional. That's why I say check the wiki, plenty of advice from guys who've done it for many years. All you got to do is follow their lead.

If you bend over backwards working like crazy for free one time, it's going to become easier to do a second time. This is how you end up with an exploitative industry. You'll pay for it down the road.

Ashervisalis

If this company has handed out art tests to 20 applicants, and you just spend the 8 hours per day on it, while the other applicants spend 16 hours per day on it, who do you think is going to have more impressive results? Do you think the rest of the candidates are going to be sticking to the 8 hours per day as well? The amount of time you spend on this test could be the determining factor between landing this first job or not. It would also be silly of the employer to believe anybody when they say they just spent 8 hours per day on the art test.

Alex_J

And what you just did was enable a predatory, exploitative employer. You put the me above the we.

Ashervisalis

I'm not saying it's a good thing. I hate art tests. I think the idea of art tests exploits applicants. It's unfair that they're unpaid. But, they exist. And if you want a job, especially as a junior artist, you're going to get an art test. Now, the truth of the matter is the majority of people doing these art tests are going to be trying extremely hard to get that job. For the majority, this art test is the deciding factor between them getting a cool art job and having to work at the gas station another year. These people realize this, and pour everything they have into the art test.

We could tell carrottoptw to just put in the 8 hours because that would be fair. Or we could tell them about how hard everybody else is trying, and the cold hard fact that 8 hours isn't going to be able to compete with the other applicants. It's sad, yes, but its the truth.

carrottoptw

Ashervisalis said:

If this company has handed out art tests to 20 applicants, and you just spend the 8 hours per day on it, while the other applicants spend 16 hours per day on it, who do you think is going to have more impressive results? Do you think the rest of the candidates are going to be sticking to the 8 hours per day as well? The amount of time you spend on this test could be the determining factor between landing this first job or not. It would also be silly of the employer to believe anybody when they say they just spent 8 hours per day on the art test.

@Ashervisalis Interesting stuff.  But what happens when you spend 16 hours a day on the test piece for 3 days and it secures you the job. Once you're in the job your boss asks you to do something similar in 3 days because thats all the time/budget they can allocate on it and because you've impressed them by creating something great in the art test by spending along time on it and submitting it as being done in 3 "normal hour" days, you then realise you need more time to finish the new job, so you end up just working late into the night(s) similar to what you were doing in the art test to get the job done.... or the project gets taken from from you and given to someone quicker and better.   Finally you manage to get it done in the 3 day period and the boss loves it.... the next week he asks for the same but this time in 2 days lol

Sorry just typing out aload with this lol.  Just curious.

Ashervisalis

Might be better for someone else to chime in here now, with more industry experience than me. However, I feel like a lot of art tests I've seen ask for ridiculous amounts of work in little time, which I can't see people usually getting done in the regular work hours. Might be a test to see how you handle crunch time. Also, junior artists usually aren't expected to be able to work suuuuper fast. When an employer hires a junior artist, they're sacrificing speed for cost. I have, however, only been on the artist side of art tests, not the employer's side, so I wouldn't be able to really answer that.

Alex_J

It's up to you to decide where you draw the line. If it's worth it to forego a bit of dignity because you got to eat and you think working for an exploitative employer making games is the best thing for you to do, that's your call.

But there is companies out there doing it right so if you aren't desperate I wouldn't jump at anything questionable. In my book, an employer that doesn't communicate crystal clear standards and go out of the way to sell themselves, focusing on their superior treatment of employees, is questionable. An employer that seems focused on identifying a persons willingness to crunch is highly suspicious. This is the exact same behavior an abusive sociopath displays when choosing a target for relationships. If they are interested in your compliance with unreasonable request, that's not somebody worth working for, and if you do you are a buddy fucker. it's the same as seeing a bear in the woods and then not telling other hikers that it's there. Actually, it's worse than that. It's feeding the damn animal, then leaving and not saying shit.

If an employer has the question, "how do you handle crunch?" your counter question needs to be, "how do you strategically scope your projects to ensure a sustainable work life balance for your employees?"

Too many young people have unrealistic view about their own worth and what a healthy professional relationship is supposed to look like. If others want to destroy their health and throw away dignity to earn an abusive sociopath a few dollars more, that's their loss. I say don't put yourself in compromised position to begin with, this way you can be careful to only help out those who are doing right, and avoid those who aren't.

And don't get confused because your boss is a real nice guy. If they aren't willing to cut their salary to keep employees paid, they're an asshole. They don't give a shit about you. If the CEO earns 100x more than you, they don't give a shit about you. Don't let yourself suffer from Stockholm syndrome. Train others how to treat you, and if they won't comply then find someone who will.

It goes without saying then that getting into the industry at any cost is a privilege you forego if you can't do it without debasing yourself. But sometimes that's how life goes. You don't always do what you want to do. But in a free society you should always be able to do things on your terms at least. 

Given the unstable nature of games and the problem with exploitation of workers, it seems irresponsible to put all your eggs in that basket. If you're a kid just starting out it's probably going to be worthwhile to develop some other skills you can fall back on. Plus it's going to make you a better person in the long run. You'll have more to say as an artist if you've done something besides just playing and making games.

Ashervisalis

edit: I feel we're straying too far from the original topic though. Sorry if I derailed the thread about this specific art test. I guess I'll just say to ask as many questions as you need. Good luck with the test!!!

NikhilR

The thing is, if we knew the employer, we might be able to give a better assessment of their credibility. 
The way they're approaching art tests isn't uncommon. There's a whole thread about the problems facing this aspect of the hiring process. 
https://polycount.com/discussion/212778/your-art-test-is-bad-this-is-why-and-how-to-improve-it

Usually an art test is used to gauge what the applicant does with the assigned time, I'm not entirely sure if they compare the work of multiple applicants and if this is a deciding factor with regards to hiring.

A portfolio ought to provide most of the information needed, but many times and art test is just protocol and the person assigning it is assigned to do so.
The people looking at it are totally different (especially in larger companies) A lot is lost in communication. 

So I can't really find a good reason as to why this is still a practice, especially if its handled poorly. 
The industry needs a ton of transparency, but as you can see, there are many people willing to so whatever it takes for the lucrative first job and many companies abusing this, so I'd say don't sweat it but always a good idea to do your due diligence.

throttlekitty

"Lastly there was a line about there being over 100 applicants and how I am one of the few to be given the opportunity."

Personally I think that this is a red flag. Maybe they're not so great at communicating, who knows. But that is the kind of language designed to pressure someone.

carrottoptw

@NikhilR - thank you for the links, very informative read from talented people

@throttlekitty - interesting... how do you think it puts pressure on someone? I'm curious

neilberard

Yeah... that 100 applicants thing is a huge red flag for me.

birb

carrottoptw said:

@throttlekitty - interesting... how do you think it puts pressure on someone? I'm curious

"We're so popular! People are falling over themselves to work for us! But being chosen by us makes you special when we could have gone with SO many others... so won't you make these teeny-weeny sacrifices now as a proof of your commitment and professionalism? "

I'm not saying they're signaling this on purpose, people can be awkward and a truly innocent compliment may come out wrong,
but this I'm complimenting you on your success in being noticed by me and look, I have choices thing is a hallmark of—for the lack of a better word—grooming. That's eyebrow-raising at very least, huge red flag at worst.

Think about it: They could have just complimented you, said they liked your portfolio and that you seem like a good fit, etc. Why insert themselves in this and make sure you don't get too comfortable while at it?

carrottoptw

neilberard said:

Yeah... that 100 applicants thing is a huge red flag for me.

Thank you for you input @neilberard - always interesting to hear what a senior artist thinks 

@birb - I did think it odd (maybe even unprofessional) regarding the 100 applicants comment, but I guess I gave them the benefit of the doubt and thought its probably an insignificant phrase lol, but then again I'm not as experienced with the ways on the industry yet, but thank you for your thoughts, its all a very interesting read

UPDATE - So after being sent the art test brief, I decided to graciously bow out of the test sighting I was not the candidate they were looking for.  

Firstly the brief was sent in a different language, along with the phrase from the boss "I’m sure you’ll find a way to understand it.  Let’s say this is also part of the test!" which didn't fill me with confidence in communication between myself and the company if I took the test.

Secondly the brief itself was highly conceptual and vague asking me to delve very deeply into the lore and thought process of the character and to extract an emotion and then 3D visualise a large creature using only that emotion (difficult to explain) which seemed like far more work than the 1 day they first wanted me to spend on it mocking up sketches and reference etc.  

What they seemed to want was a to kill 2 birds with one stone in a newly founded 3 month old company by having a 3D character modeller that was also a fantastic 2D concept artist, the latter of which I am not and it was something I didn't have in my portfolio and made a point to not list as a skill I had.  I wouldn't have been able to do it justice as I'm only a junior starting out haha

Joao Sapiro

you did well. it was reeking of red flags.

Ashervisalis

carrottoptw said:

"I’m sure you’ll find a way to understand it.  Let’s say this is also part of the test!"

lol they just shot themselves in the foot. That is so weird.

carrottoptw

Yeah haha... a more optimistic person might not think anything of it, think thats its marginally funny or just plow ahead.  

It just gave me a bad impression on what sort of communication might be like further down the line ("we'll know what we like when we see it") and seems odd that you don't value someones time enough to make it clear what you're asking of them and just expect them to do a dodgy google translate and read between the lines... all for free as well hahaha

Anyway when I politely emailed saying I didn't think I was the right candidate they were after and sorry for wasting anyones time, they just didn't bother replying back lol.   But hey if anyone wants to apply, hit up Artstation, its still up there 

birb

Oh my god hahaha. 

If your ability to get work done depends on understanding language X then it's not a "plus"! *facepalm*

("we'll know what we like when we see it")

This briefing style doesn't make concept artists happy either. There's exploratory conceptual art and there's this. The key difference is that one of them still has a clear direction.

PixelMasher

NikhilR

  I'm wondering if it might be a good idea to have a forum topic listing companies with shady practices.
  To blacklist and liquidate them so to speak for the good of the industry.

Taylor Brown

I recall Eric giving pretty clear explanations of why that's something they don't want happening around here. Topics like this are good because rather than just naming and shaming it gives people insight into what to watch out for in general.

Alex_J

plus that would be abused to hell and cause big controversy.

Eric Chadwick

Yep, not gonna do that. 

Eric Chadwick

Taylor has it right. Basically, teach someone to fish, don't just give them a fish.

NikhilR

Alex Javor said:

plus that would be abused to hell and cause big controversy.

One can always go on Glassdoor to double check a company's credibility. Good practice to do that in any situation.

Eric Chadwick

Glassdoor overwhelmingly attracts pessimists though. Those with positive impressions rarely feel as much need to post about it, as those with negative feelings.

Brian "Panda" Choi

@Eric Chadwick
fDo you feel like, even with the pessimism, it may be useful to use it to note recurring patterns of criticism?  As opposed to paying attention to one off criticisms.

Eric Chadwick

It can't hurt to seek more information. I would simply caution people to be wary of echo chambers.