Cintiq for 3D Sculpting

mrboat

Hi folks, I wonder if you can help me.

I have been thinking on acquiring a Cintiq for 3D Sculpting and after watching a lot of reviews, usually focused on 2D Art, I wanted to ask you:

How important do you feel pressure levels to be?

What about parallax? Do laminated screens offer any value to 3D users?

What about size? I was thinking on a 16 inches screen, but been tempted to go all the way up to 27 for a bigger space.

And finally... what about chinese brands?

Should I trust Huion or XP-PEN?

kanga

I wouldn't do it because working on the screen your hand and pen are in the way, and there is a gap between it and what you are working on. Then again a buddy of mine uses a 27 inch cintiq and swears by it.

gnoop

  I am too lazy  to trade in regular tablet and relaxed work style in a comfortable arm chair to  something I actually have to sweep my hands over  all the time  while  sitting in clumsy stiff  pose bending over

'cool' thing for the sake of  some "authentic feeling" .

 

I recall it was quite refreshing when I first tried to paint  on pc screen view  unrestricted  by  your own hands .   Always felt weird since when had to go back to physical canvas.

zachagreg

The main issues I encounter with the cintiq is a good desk setup with the damn thing, arms are cumbersome for the cintiq because as much as they say they don't wobble they always will. I have mine on a varied angle mount and on the left side of my L-desk I still have to move one of my arm monitors over when using it for extended periods. Gnoop also brings up a good point, I have yet to find a way to be truly comfortable while working at that thing its a bit annoying.

Kangas mention with your hand is legit and will be even greater of a bother on a smaller screen, I use a 27 inch. Maybe I'm just a bit weird and can't find a comfortable position for the thing. I've seen some people use the ergonomic mount from wacom, I've seen some people put it in their laps pretty much, Some do the fully near vertical screen like an easel but it always kind of sucks. Also due to trying to lean in on the thing my keyboard usually has to be on my lap or I utilize the little EK remote.

XP-Pen is worthwhile in my opinion, for sculpting I've never really tested the difference between 2k levels and 1k levels of sensitivity but I can't count 2k levels while I'm using mine so I imagine the discernible difference is a stat they can advertise. Huion has been crap for me in the past and always results in driver errors and loss of use.

Parallax I don't notice too much, and I don't know what laminated is referring too exactly. I have heard a cintiq is a lot better for 2D art than 3D but can not test those claims.

For body longevity I wouldn't recommend it and I'm actually looking to get rid of mine fairly soon. I've had it for some years now and while it is a damn fine piece of tech I much prefer not being in pain while working. Just look at Wacom's own promo video and see some of the terrible postures these people are in when using the "Ergo Stand"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuGySWLyrkY

thomasp

That guy at 0:47 in the video ... ouch. Apart from neck pain I'd be concerned about eyesight issues.

Personally I haven't used one of these long enough to get a real impression but the setup always looked like too much hassle - having palettes potentially hidden under the palm, having to find workarounds for keyboard and mouse access... multi monitor arrangement issues ... why bother.

For someone just working in one program all the time I can see the appeal. However when doing 3D I find myself juggling apps constantly - and none of these will have been made with that kind of device in mind.

Alex_J

thomasp said:

 However when doing 3D I find myself juggling apps constantly

This. I wouldn't bother unless you already have a job where you do nothing but paint in photoshop or sculpt in zbrush all day and nothing else.  Any other kind of 3d and maybe zbrush less than half your time spent, and you want standard m/kb for that. 

Even when working mostly in zbrush, I still find myself hot swapping to m/kb for all kinds of stuff. I don't like to use transform gizmo with pen. Too finicky. Zmodeler as well. Poking through menus and adjusting sliders, usually I swap to mouse as well.

I wouldn't worry about the technicals of pen pressure either. If you can't sculpt with the most basic setup the tech isn't the issue. Again, if you are already top tier pro looking for every tiny nit picky advantage and you know your precise workflow through ahd through - well then you'd already know what you want anyway.

mrboat

Thank you for your replies!

The reason I am considering a Cintiq/Display Tablet is because I have always made a really exceptional use of traditional tablets and never got used to it. As soon as I need to go through menus I end up switching to keyboard and mouse and by the time I notice I have continued my work without the tablet. This happens to me a lot probably because sculpting is only something I do once or twice per month at work.

For home use I was just planning to get something I could use both as a secondary monitor and a tool for personal stuff where I could just stay for hours in 3D-Coat/Zbrush/Painter without touching the mouse at all and just focusing in what I have in front.

kanga

mrboat said:

Thank you for your replies!

The reason I am considering a Cintiq/Display Tablet is because I have always made a really exceptional use of traditional tablets and never got used to it. As soon as I need to go through menus I end up switching to keyboard and mouse ......

I hear you on that one. I use the mouse in my left hand and the pen in my right. There is just some stuff a mouse is better at, like typing in values in zB plus Ue4 refuses to listen to my comic tablet. The comic is app sensitive, so it can recognise the app its being used on. That means a custom pen button setup per program is possible and it makes switching between applications painless.

rollin

I use the 22HD and it is really cool imo. I have it standing quite like a normal monitor with an angle of maybe.. 10 or 15°.
Personally I would say, take the bigger one or just don't take one at all. Of course this might be only my personal preference but it is the least hassle if you can just use it as your main screen and use it's other features only when needed. 
I move the whole thing closer to me when using the pen so I can easily rest my elbow on the table when drawing or sculpting. Otherwise it's about 40-50 cm away.. 

mrboat

rollin said:

I use the 22HD and it is really cool imo. I have it standing quite like a normal monitor with an angle of maybe.. 10 or 15°.
Personally I would say, take the bigger one or just don't take one at all. Of course this might be only my personal preference but it is the least hassle if you can just use it as your main screen and use it's other features only when needed. 
I move the whole thing closer to me when using the pen so I can easily rest my elbow on the table when drawing or sculpting. Otherwise it's about 40-50 cm away.. 

Thanks... Was looking to get a refurbished 27 one, but I am worried about the parallax (distance between glass and screen) in comparison to the pro ones and the 2048 levels of sensitivity.

I understand the 22HD is not laminated either yet you seem happy with it, have you noticed any issues?

I have been checking and it's... 600 bucks less than the 27 model! That allows for an ergotron or a static table stand if I sort out the needed space.

Thanks.

kanga said:

mrboat said:

Thank you for your replies!

The reason I am considering a Cintiq/Display Tablet is because I have always made a really exceptional use of traditional tablets and never got used to it. As soon as I need to go through menus I end up switching to keyboard and mouse ......

I hear you on that one. I use the mouse in my left hand and the pen in my right. There is just some stuff a mouse is better at, like typing in values in zB plus Ue4 refuses to listen to my comic tablet. The comic is app sensitive, so it can recognise the app its being used on. That means a custom pen button setup per program is possible and it makes switching between applications painless.

That's a curious way of working, i should try it once I'm back (strange times we are living) in the office!

rollin

mrboat said:

Thanks... Was looking to get a refurbished 27 one, but I am worried about the parallax (distance between glass and screen) in comparison to the pro ones and the 2048 levels of sensitivity.

I understand the 22HD is not laminated either yet you seem happy with it, have you noticed any issues?

I have been checking and it's... 600 bucks less than the 27 model! That allows for an ergotron or a static table stand if I sort out the needed space.

Thanks.

So the parallax is a non issue for me as I don't look at the tip of the pen but rather the cursor. So in fact I even prefer if the cursor is lightly towards the upper left of the pen tip. And I can even control it through the parallax by moving the head slightly if necessary.

Sadly you can't attach the thing to an ergotron bc of the custom stand system. Or at least I haven't found a way to do it.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-P-74eanQhOw/VNwhQZ4jGUI/AAAAAAAA3Wc/NAMefg2nhO0/w990/wacom-cintiq-22hd-06.jpg

zachagreg

With the 27 inch you should be able to attach an ergotron arm but you have to get both a universal vesa adapter and the correct arm that is spec'd properly for the weight of the thing or else you will get subtle drift downward while working. Parallax is also a non-issue for me when sculpting.

From your pic rolling you may also be able to use the same Vesa adapter on it but with some little rubber spacers at the far corners due to the slope of the back.

Blaizer

I own a cintiq 16, and i wish i could have room/space for a bigger one. But what i wish the more, is a cintiq with a better screen, with better response, 120hz, and touch control like the ipad pro. Actual cintiqs are good to get the job done, but not enough for me. If we want to avoid eye strain we need screens with a good refresh rate, without screen noise, good luminosity, good colors, and cintiqs are quite horrible in that aspect.

I use the cintiq with an accessory attached for the different levels of inclination, and it's a must. I paid 470€ in a presale bundle over amazon.es (cintiq16 + slope adaptor). A bigger cintiq will need a flexible and good arm. Wacom's Flex Arms are top notch, but quite expensive.

The parallax effect on newer cintiqs is there, like too many other issues (heat, noise, wavy lines, etc.). I returned a Cintiq Pro 24 because i wasn't happy at all with it. Moreover, the touch functions in Wacom products are a complete garbage. Nothing compared to the touch control of the ipad pro (it's in another dimension). I ended buying a "low cost" cintiq without touch functions. My intuos pro L has it, but i have that option disabled via button (another shit being honest).

And another thing is the cursor lag. With the ipad pro i have Zero lag. The cursor is always under the tip, and It's like painting on glass, a very thin glass. But with all the wacom cintiqs, there's a damn cursor lag, or not enough response time; about 1-2cm of separation.

Pressure levels are quite important if you draw a lot. You don't need to press the tip so hard to get decent results. But for sculpting in Zbrush, 4096 is fine.

Chinese brands and becoming a better option, but can't be compared to wacom's cintiqs. They present the same issues, but all is worse. I don't recommend them. Before buying the cintiq 16, i returned to amazon A Huion Canvas 22 (2019 model), and another Xp-Pen with similar specs. My experience was horrible. Glad i bought them with Amazon.

And about the software we use with a cintiq monitor or similar, i must say i needed to config, adapt all UIs in all the software i use. Some programs like Blender are unfriendly with interactive monitors, so i can't use it with my cintiq. At least, with Zbrush we can change ALL in the interface, and the workflow is designed for tablets.

hope it helps.

mrboat

Thanks Blaizer,

I was just checking today what I needed to have the 27QHD with an ergotron, it goes up to €1700 almost, quite a big investment but "cheap" taking in mind the 24 pro is €1600 where I am living now. I could always buy from Amazon.es (un saludo desde el extranjero) or other mainland one but the shipment cost usually makes up for the price over here.

Thanks about your opinion on chinese ones, as i was thinking on going with the newly released Huion Kamvas 24 Pro or maybe with the cheaper Cintiq 22HD (around €1000 after getting an ergotron and a working VESA mount for the curved back).

Don't know, have to think about it. The price of the ergotron and the fact there is no official wacom stand available anymore (you are basically playing rouletter expecting the erogtron LX HD does the work) is a turn off.

gnoop

I see only way to use it comfortably 

knacki

gnoop that was indeed one of my setups in the past. I like to stand while working time by time a day. I had a big easel anyway, so I placed my Cintiq on it, and the keyboard beneath. You can also step back instead of zooming to get an overall impression. Like with real painting or sculpting.

I have an old 21" Cintiq and I am happy with it. zBrush is fun but 1600x1200 are to small. A smaller screen is no real option, as all UI icons are getting terribly tiny.

Meanwhile I have a eletric table. Build it myself. Got the electric parts from an auction website, some Chinese brand working for some years already. It was 650€ + wood for surface.

It's an 220cm x 60cm base with an L 80x60cm on one end, on which Cinitiq is placed.

It's quite fine.

rollin

@knacki
Damn.. you are forcing yourself to show some pics

slosh

I have a 27' cintiq at home and for work and can't go back to tablets.  They are just excellent to sculpt on.  That being said,  I don't think it is necessary.  Plenty of amazing sculptors just use a tablet.  It comes down to preference and whether you can swing the cost.  Never used any other brand so I can't speak to the quality of anything outside of Wacom cintiqs.  I've owned 20, 24, 27 inch cintiqs in my career and all of them have been fantastic.

poopipe

I too have used cintiqs (and knockoff cintiqs) for many years.

They are better than a standard tablet in every way for both painting and sculpting but as slosh says, theyre not essential. 
If you've got the money and the space then it's unlikely you'll regret buying a decent cintiq (22" or bigger)  - it'll last you years and years too

I have mine mounted on an ergotron arm so I can move it to a comfortable place when I'm using it - £120 and youre done.. 

mrboat

After watching the Huion Kamvas 24 announcement I have decided to buy a cheap traditional tablet (I had nothing at the moment so needed something asap) and wait to see what happens in the following year on Wacom's realm, see if the actual pro models drop in price or if they release a new 27 inches cintiq.

I was almost decided to get the 27qhd but I was not feeling really comfortable with the final bill having in account it's a 5 years old tablet. On the bad side I doubt Wacom is ever going to release a a QHD screen again, and that's my preferred resolution (anybody who jumped into 4k early on as I did will understand).

Thank you everybody. I'll probably update this thread if the day where I get a cintiq or a knockoff ever comes.

mrboat

Hey guys.

They day after buying a traditional tablet I saw a Refurbished Cintiq 16 and decided to cancel my previous order and go with that + a future-proof ergotron.

I was worried about the erogtron minimum weight but there was nothing to worry about, it works flawlessly and it will allow me to upgrade some day to a bigger model.

Said so... wow!
I am writing as a guy who learned to sculpt with cintiqs and never touched one again since 2014 and... wow.

I am really surprised and happy. I can't stop myself from sculpting and testing stuff on my tablet.At first I was worried of UI size but truth to be told ZBrush at least is really competent in this 16 inches screen with 43 button size and 100% scale in windows. I tried to push the device at QHD through Nvidia, and it's not bad at all, although (of course) blurrier.

Again, please take my opinion with a grain of salt, I'm not focused in sculpting but this was a great improvement over traditional tablets both for ergonomics (tablet's in the air with my left hand at the keyboard, no need for buttons in the tablet) and overall use point of view.

Thank you all for your comments, felt I had to add this.