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[RANT]What I really REALLY hate about Blender as a 3ds Max user.

polycounter lvl 5
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Zoddo polycounter lvl 5
I've been a max user for about 6 years and recently started using Blender.
Though I like Blender a lot and don't want to go back to max any time soon for basic modelling, there are a couple of things I REALLY dislike about Blender.
This is why I am making this post, as I have to blow off some steam. Mainly because I don't like it when simple tasks become busy work or "unlogical" in my eyes.

Maybe I don't yet know how Blender fully works, so if you know a good alternative workflow please tell me! :D

Basic Object Creation, Modifiers and Non-Destructive Workflows;
Blender does not have this, like at all. When you create an object/mesh for example a cylinder and you click on that object or something else. You can't adjust the radius, height or subcount anymore.
For simple meshes this isn't much of a problem, but for example creating a sappling tree this is a big deal.
In 3ds max you work with modifier stacks in a non-destructive workflow. So i can subdivide and extrude a cylinder and still afterwards be able to change it's radius and height.

Simple Deform and other Modifiers REQUIRING EMPTIES!
In Blender modifiers don't use the AXIS of the mesh it's aplied to, so you have to use empties..... this is just busy work. Sure the feature can be usefull, but why by default does it not use the object's AXIS when no empty is selected?
Simply curving a subdivided cylinder 90degrees becomes busy work this way, stuff like that makes me want to go back to max...

Curves:
Curves to me here are just confusing compared to the splines in Max, but that's just a personal thing. I hate it that i can't say rather or not a vertices is cornered or bezierd, or adding a vertices on a specific point not being possible unless you subdivide....

I just had to get this off my chest.... I really like Blender and already boughts some addons on the marketplace. Only these things mentioned are a really pain in the ass, that sometimes makes me want to go back to Max.
I recognize that I just have to bite through that hard bullet....

Replies

  • zachagreg
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    zachagreg ngon master
    So just going to post these because these exact things bothered me a shit ton when I tried out blender for the 2.8 release.
    Also look into Speedflow for that

    For the empty thing Maxivz made a couple of tools that help with some of the deformers. https://polycount.com/discussion/comment/2723502#Comment_2723502

    I imagine the other tools could be scripted as well for this behavior. As you said there is value in the option being there but being the default behavior is just annoying.

    As for the splines I think Maxivzs scripts might help a bit in the regard of dragging them out but when it comes down to it Max's spline tools are some of the best there is. So it makes sense you find other's lacking.

    I would also voice these concerns to Blender if possible as well.
  • fdfxd2
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    fdfxd2 interpolator
    Man it's like you've taken the words out of my heart.

    I've the exact same grievances and I've used blender longer than I used max.

    Sorry to say, it never stops being annoying to have to create and an empty object every time you do something as basic as add a mirror modifier.

    Though who knows? Maybe these problems will be addressed in the future releases. Blender has made a lot of progress in a short period of time.
  • guitarguy00
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    guitarguy00 polycounter lvl 6
    Add that there is no pinch option for multiple edge loops and no constrain to face option  =)
  • gnoop
  • gnoop
  • sacboi
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    sacboi high dynamic range
    Noice :) also not forgetting NITROX3D too, these guys are definitely illustrating what can be achieved with a zero $$$ outlay, thereby imo helping to make this app a serious competitor.

    ...however, for me the logo still sucks...a 'lowercase'd graphical hairy bullseye thing' I mean really, couldn't BF have extended their collective design sense just a tad, farther into the 21st century, perhaps?!
  • Udjani
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    Udjani interpolator
    I agree 100% with the parametric primitives, splines, modifieres and others things like a radial array for instance. And i suspect that the blender devs have no idea of the state of blender when it comes to polymodeling, the improvements to basic polymodeling tools are so few and so far apart, and they usually depend upon a lone wolf savior like Howard Trickey who add miter to bevels a few months ago (who is also working to improve booleas). Before that you had a broken bevel miter that would scare the soul of any max user out of their body. 

    But i disagree in your take on nondestructive workflow, blender is much weak on this but no other package do what max does, so much so that this might be the only reason max isn't dead already. kekekek

    Also i wouldn't expect any improvments on this regard so soon, they want blender to have a robust nondestructive workflow but it will be nodebase like houdini and is like 2 years down the line. 
  • jRocket
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    jRocket polycounter lvl 18
    Udjani said:
    Before that you had a broken bevel miter that would scare the soul of any max user out of their body. 
    To be fair, 3ds Max chamfer/bevels were pretty bad until only a few versions back- to the point where you had to buy a paid third-party plugin to fix it.

    To me, the worse part about Blender is the UV tools.
    • The auto-uv's a good enough, but it always puts things in weird angles.
    • The UV packing is terrible for efficient game uv layouts.
    • There is no quick way visualize UVs on the 3d object. You have make a checker material manually.
    • The grab/rotate/scale tools really need a "Preserve UVs" option like the slide edge tool has. There is no way to "relax" UVs outside of the relax brush. Why it is a brush and not an operator that works on selected uvs???.
    I'll still use Blender, I just wish it were better in these areas.
  • Zoddo
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    Zoddo polycounter lvl 5
    Add that there is no pinch option for multiple edge loops and no constrain to face option  =)

    that there's no edge constraint option is just mind boggling.... now i have to straighten edges by HAND!
  • Zoddo
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    Zoddo polycounter lvl 5
    gnoop said:

    this is not what i am talking about at all.....
  • coven
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    coven polycounter lvl 6
    jRocket said:
    To be fair, 3ds Max chamfer/bevels were pretty bad until only a few versions back- to the point where you had to buy a paid third-party plugin to fix it.

    We didn't buy tech for chamfer/bevels. We completey rewrote it. Scrapped a lot of the code that was there, and introduced over 20k lines of code for all the new shiny stuff. :)

    Chamfer/bevels are very complex. There are a lot of edge cases that pop up where they don't work as expected, that you have to take into account. I hope what we did is working well for those that are using it. If not, we actively fix things as we find them. If you do find a case where they aren't working as expected, you can let us know and we'd be happy to take a look.

    EDITED: Sorry I misread the above post. You had to use a plugin before. Not that we purchased a plugin. Got it. :)
  • DavidCruz
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    DavidCruz interpolator
    jRocket said:
     about Blender is the UV tools.
    What do you use now or your processes? TLDR; i just want more options, i do it manually.

    I tried blenders auto-uv's and some plugin, i do it all manually still - just asking if there maybe some solution that people find absolutely amazing compared to manually placing islands (that saves time), i also manually unwrap.

    TBH i rather not fiddle with islands if there is a packer that does what needs to be done, even if it takes a reference, uv of say (character) or a couple and computes how others packed their uv's to be "optimal', and reconfigures my uvs to those references (idk how coders do it, seems like 1 script is floating around, they all end up looking very similar)
    Big(bottom) to small packed islands(top), looks very automated. idk, feel like manual is the best option.
  • RN
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    RN sublime tool
    DavidCruz said:
    Big(bottom) to small packed islands(top), looks very automated. idk, feel like manual is the best option.
    That's probably to do with the packing algorithm, most sort the pieces by area and pack them from largest to smallest because it's more efficient in this way, you can fit smaller pieces in the gaps around the larger ones.
  • gnoop
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    gnoop polycounter

    Zoddo said:
    this is not what i am talking about at all.....

    Well , 

    " When you create an object/mesh for example a cylinder and you click on that object or something else. You can't adjust the radius, height or subcount anymore." 

    Those videos  show you totally can starting not from a cylinder but rather an edge.   With screw or bend modifier then curve modifier  again .

    For the tree you could make its trunk and branches, kind of a skeleton, from edges only  then use skin modifier and SHIFT+A to adjust  how thick each branch is , then subdivide, then  scatter small brunches through particles .   All having it perfectly editable by initial edge "skeleton"

    Of course MAx provides more  especially with its Max Creation Graph. 
    I personally lack UV as a modifier sometimes and ability to adjust UV  in Blender  curves .    Agree about  empty  objects too, It makes Blender rigs too complicated  sometimes  still many Blender modifiers works perfectly well with object center too.

    Although few things Blender does more convenient IMO.  For example shrinkwrap modifier or ability to project UV from one mesh to another. I use it constantly  and Max "projection" modifier while does it too, is never reliable. 

    Also Arrays.  Max didn't have anything close for  years and as far as I know (I am no more subscribed to Max)  can't shift UV in arrayed meshes  the way it would merge into non split by UV stripes.  Well, without going deep into MCG that I personally find even more artist unfriendly and puzzling  than Houdini .    

    ps. I loved ShaderFX when it was stand alone plugin . Was my favorite part of Max . Then they incorporated it and IMO made unusable.    Now I use exclusively   Blender shader network when I want to show an example of what I want  to shader coder . 2.7 version even has an addon that exports you material as glsl code.







  • elias leoanrd
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    elias leoanrd polycounter lvl 9
    Oh man i feel your pain!
    I've got 8+ years of experience with 3Ds Max and Zbrush, Also a few years with Maya and Mudbox and obviously constantly learning other software like Substance Painter, Designer, Cinema 4D, 3D Coat, World Creator, Unity, Unreal and so on... so I'm used to getting over that learning curve over and over again, and no software is perfect but wow, Blender is giving me a really hard time. I get it it's free, so i feel bad complaining, but it's by far the least intuitive piece of software I've used.
    I feel like a lot of simple actions that normally can be done with a few clicks or button presses, in Blender I have to use weird workarounds that take ages and are very finicky and loose. I just don't get it why they just don't want to look at good software and copy whatever works and maybe improve upon it, they try to reinvent the wheel but make it square.
    It just amazes me that in retrospect even Zbrush has a better UI
    The above mentioned topics are all very relatable, i'd like to add: wtf is up with no backface culling, or rather always backface culling unless you use the wireframe view
  • Axi5
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    Axi5 interpolator
    What version are you using? Blender's UI in the latest versions is very good IMO
  • poopipe
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    poopipe grand marshal polycounter
    I was moving myself from Max to Blender because I didn't want to pay for Max, I have free non-commercial Maya but I would rather pay for Max or learn something new than subject myself to that shit outside of the office. 
    Anyway, I tried loads of the plugins and tools, endured the rabid evangelism and atrocious tutorials on youtube and I got myself to a point where I'd rather use Blender than Maya for modelling
    then
    Max became available on subscription for a reasonable price so I gave Autodesk some money, deleted blender and have never looked back. 

    Blender is a great thing but the UX is fucking awful and the ecosystem (like most open source projects) is a mire of inconsistent and half-assed tools.  I just don't have the time or will to deal with it when #30 a month gets me something I don't have to dick around with. 


  • gnoop
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    gnoop polycounter
    I have just run out of a year of MAx subscription.   And having  a tough time  justifying  another year.    Had been using  MAx for decade before switching   to Blender .     MAx was so monstrously  awful,  slow and crashy  around 2008     Blender had been a huge win, especially in UV department, even before all its new cool things and new UI.   

    Been subscribed to MAx  from time to time since on monthly basis .    Yeah.  Max  is a lot better now  and eliminated all the gaps behind Blender  that had been making Blender a better choice imo.    And several things  are  somewhat more flexible   in Max especially with a few extra ( and expensive) 3d party plugins.

       Still   Blender  feels  so  much more at home for me now  I hardly used that  year of  Max subscription at all and it didn't stop to annoy me by how convoluted  everything is in it.   
        During that year I only once managed to get the view port show me something close to Blender Evee and gosh how hidden it is all there.  I haven't memorized it well and now could't  recollect how I did it.     Everything in Blender seems few clicks less than in MAx .  Simpler . Easier. More Efficient . More modern and well thought .  
         
          I wasted a huge amount of time trying to learn MCG  since I thought it's a possible advantage over Blender.   What an undecipherable  black hole it is . Gave up by now totally.        Blenders geometry  nodes  seems so much more promising and easier to work with  even being pretty limited actually.    Tried to connect my beloved Octane render to MAx . Gave up either ,  so tired of skipping hoops.    Tried to  switch to Arnold.  Nope . no way.     
       Sometimes I feel that so called Industry standard tools are specifically made to make an artist life miserable .  And Blender is a natural selection born thing  to oppose it .
       
  • thomasp
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    thomasp hero character
    Random crashes when doing simple things, loooooooooooooooooooong startup times, crazy ballooning filesizes and a viewport that sometimes corrupted the display are what I remember most from 15 or so years of using Max. But the worst thing to me nowadays is having to click rather precisely on a gizmo all the time to move things or exactly hit an edge to make a selection. So much more fluid to work in Blender. It appears I went from die-hard Max user to officially Max-incompatible. Subscriptions made me do the switch, thanks - so much better now. :)

    Having no Edge/Face constraints is my personal worst about Blender. Can't believe nobody has gotten around to adding those (yes I know about the recent feature in Machin3tools but it's only a subset of what these constraints are useful for).

  • gnoop
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    gnoop polycounter
    thomasp said:
    Having no Edge/Face constraints is my personal worst about Blender.
    I never used face constrain  a lot in Max ,  only  edge one usually and after switching to Blender I instantly loved its "slide" counterpart where you could instantly  move a vertex or edge  along any of adjacent edges   with double GG    and contrary to Max  you can do it outside of a mesh shape with Alt pressed.   
      Never figure out how to do it in Max  and it's supper annoying now  when I try to model something there.        

    Also  surface shading  through smooth groups  have always looked super weird for me .  Some people consider them  a convenience and use  special  extra loops techniques  to get rid of shading artifacts . I have never understood that.   Imo it's a pain in  ...   especially for some non-co-planar/cylindrical  things . 
     Max never cared to make an easy and simple normals editng or transfer.    And vertex normals is a huge part of any low poly modeling. 


  • Noors
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    Noors greentooth
    poopipe said:
    Blender is a great thing but the UX is fucking awful and the ecosystem (like most open source projects) is a mire of inconsistent and half-assed tools.  I just don't have the time or will to deal with it when #30 a month gets me something I don't have to dick around with.
    Funny, not a long time user, but to me Blender UX is far better than max. No install, starts in 3 seconds. UI is clean and intuitive. Lots of nifty modeling tricks. The sculpting mode is great. Almost at mudbox level already. EEVEE is great. Unwrapper is garbage, but so is max unwrapper. Some legacy stuff still feels alien or poor but the improvment since 2.7 is huge. Now you also have to accept to not work the exact same way you're used to.
    We're lucky to have this piece of software, and for free. Love it.

  • kanga
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    kanga quad damage
    Used max for about 20 yrs. Yeah long loading time but if you are using it all day (and it only crashes twice a year) then that isn't too hard to take. Loved the layer stack, but then again who doesn't? All round a super piece of software with a great user group.

    Been using and doing Blender instruction for companies for the last few years and I don't get the UX comments. I don't get the primitive initialization or non destructive modelling crits. It's my experience that GNU and commercial software are on the same high level quality wise these days.
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