Home Technical Talk

Is Akeytsu a good entry point to re-learn rigging and animation?

polycounter lvl 6
Offline / Send Message
bitinn polycounter lvl 6
One thing I have not been able to get deep into over the years is character animation, I have tried both Maya and Blender, and always find the amount of work to make a simple keyframe animation to be enormous and somewhat confusing.

While Akeytsu is by no mean panacea, I am interested to see if it can drastically reduce the busy work that comes with popular animation tool (especially for simpler rigs and animation).

I hope @Vexod14 and people with experience can give me some pointers here, Is it cool to learn Akeytsu before I get into Blender rigging and animation? Thx!

TL;DR: I just realize Akeytsu now has macOS build and I can finally try it :)

Replies

  • Vexod14
    Offline / Send Message
    Vexod14 polycounter
    Hi @bitinn =)

    Short answer : YES

    Longer one : Instead of having to learn tedious stuff, spent all your money with complex tutorials on old softwares which were never made for animators put only patched so "it could work", you can go throughout Akeytsu and find love for animation back again (and for rig too ;))


    From my own experience : I've learnt Akeytsu entirely in half a day. And after a few models rigged and posed in it (call it a warm-up), it took me 20 to 30 minutes to achieve a fullbody human rig with all the basic stuff to start animation. These are some examples made that fast : 




    And I also made a super-rough rig in minutes to show-off how fast and easy rig/skin becomes in Akeytsu :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiXgh40vWYk&list=PLW8Z5DICNruZCnfRqd3oD_7Sg-ECvKMmR&index=2&t=0s
  • musashidan
    Offline / Send Message
    musashidan high dynamic range
    @Vexod14 I don't know, mate, I REALLY tried to get into this program, but the skinning process just drove me crazy. It just seems so antiquated and unnecessarily convoluted.

    I was so disappointed with the skinning workflow as I was really looking forward to animating in this program.
  • bitinn
    Offline / Send Message
    bitinn polycounter lvl 6
    @musashidan is it still the case nowadays? or rather, what would be a good and efficient skinning process nowadays?

    From what I can see, the rigging and animating parts appear to be Akeytsu's main advantage?
  • bitinn
    Offline / Send Message
    bitinn polycounter lvl 6
    Also, really appreciate your response @Vexod14, I hope I get to try it soon and share my experience (too busy lately).
  • Vexod14
    Offline / Send Message
    Vexod14 polycounter
    As shown in the latest video of my previous post the skinning process isn't that complex. But this was done with the old method, now it's simpler. Just select desired joints, your mesh, click on bind and you're done. Literally takes seconds to achieve ;)

  • musashidan
    Offline / Send Message
    musashidan high dynamic range
    Vexod14 said:
    As shown in the latest video of my previous post the skinning process isn't that complex. But this was done with the old method, now it's simpler. Just select desired joints, your mesh, click on bind and you're done. Literally takes seconds to achieve ;)

    Are you Etienne? :) We had this discussion 3 months ago on youtube. I think my other major problem was that you can't customise the viewport navigation(which is pretty crazy)

    Here is what you said in your last reply to me:

    @musashidanmcgrath Hehe yeah indeed these videos may look a bit "slow" if you are eager to learn, I personally learned the whole software in an afternoon years ago when it was still in alpha, at this time there was fewer tutorials but all of them were made by Aurélien himself and it was really quicker to learn. But it also required to be aware of what skin, rig, and animation is and we wanted to allow more newcomers in the industry to understand how all this stuff works. But you're also right about skinning in the end, even if I still feel really good when using it we know there's many ways to improve it (and we're working on this part, ie : geodesic voxel bind will be added soon as well as some UX improvement to avoid users messing up with the usual flow). What I can recommend you to do atm would be to make a good use of our duo skin system, once mastered it offers a faster way to execute a decent skinning and we see a very promising future for this tool =)

    Maybe I will try it again. I don't like feeling like I've been defeated when trying to learn a new 3D program. :D This program really suffers from lack of exposure. I think it would benefit greatly by some proper, production example tutorials by Aurelien himself. I noticed there are a few new videos up since I last looked and I also saw that the program has been updated in an article in CGPress. Still no Voxel or heat map skinning though.

  • bitinn
    Offline / Send Message
    bitinn polycounter lvl 6
    Still no Voxel or heat map skinning though.

    It does have Voxel now, in the most recent release.
  • musashidan
    Offline / Send Message
    musashidan high dynamic range
    Thanks, I might try it again. My trial expired, but they have changed their system to subscription.
  • Alex_J
    Offline / Send Message
    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter
    I'm eager to try this out when I can. I watched the tuts, and I did get pretty confused when it came to the skinning.

    Can anybody say anything more specific than it's really fast to learn? Like, Joe learned it in an afternoon, so what? Maybe Joe is a damn genius. Which specific parts of common rigging and animation workflow are improved? How and why?
  • pior
    Offline / Send Message
    pior grand marshal polycounter
    The demo licensing/time limitation is imho pretty annoying. I was in the beta and had access to an earlier trial but despite all that I still can't try the latest version. Why not simply make the demo(s) license last forever, just without the ability to save ?
  • Vexod14
    Offline / Send Message
    Vexod14 polycounter
    @musashidan Yep I'm Etienne (not Joe ;) Even if I like that name too) and to be honest I can't make you love or not this software, I can just say that as a past user of 3dsMax/maya for rigging/skinning/animation Akeytsu felt more intuitive and powerful to me, especially when it comes to make games. Star Wars - Redemption has been possible thanks to it. I do everything in it except most animations, so every soft I use needs to be efficient and permissive. Please note that we're not affiliated with Nukeygara by any way, despite I started working for them months ago. The project is simply older than this software ;)

    Voxels are indeed here since last (October 2019) update, and skinning workflow has been also simplified. Akeytsu is already a great tool for most productions but we know it lacks some specific points, so we're constantly working on improving UI/UX and adding necessary and/or new features

    @Alex Javor I'm not a "genius", but I had some experience in rigging/skinning/anim on 3dsmax/maya, learning Akeytsu was easy for these reasons I guess. But also, I recently taught a masterclass at Emile Cohl (Lyon) to traditional 2D animation/illustration students who never touched 3D, and results were : after 2 hours they were up to animate and some of them understood how riiging could be done in Akeytsu, then they spent the rest of the day doing animation and since they were already good in 2D, Akeytsu just allowed them to do the same with 3D models, ranging from a simple ball with two legs to UE4 Mannequin. Second day I wanted to see how they could animate a more complex character. I gave them my little "e-LysE" (https://www.artstation.com/artwork/0g0rK) and they tackled excellent moves on her. 2 days, with 3D newbies. Enough if you go with Akeytsu. I won't bet on it with a Maya or 3dsMax.

    @pior Maybe ask to sales@nukeygara.com , your point is good but maybe there's some issues that could come with such "free" licensing mode, but I understand your idea, testing features rapidly before going to subscribe. Simply ask us ;)
  • musashidan
    Offline / Send Message
    musashidan high dynamic range
    @Vexod14 Thanks Etienne. Maybe you could do a feature length tutorial on the new skinning system just like you showed those 2D artists. I've been rigging/animating in Max for over 10 years and I still found the skinning in Akeytsu to be just strange. :) I really do need to give it another go.
  • Vexod14
    Offline / Send Message
    Vexod14 polycounter
    @musashidan A tutorial is planned so everyone could benefit of what Akeytsu is capable of. I'm a 3dsMax guy too but I really never found animating in it "fun" or "good", just too technical, too slow, which Akeytsu avoids/solves like a boss. Max remains my favorite software for hardsurface, game art modeling and UVs but I can't seriously think about making skin/rig or even anim in it, or if so it's just to support modeling tasks ^^

    Edit : not only one tutorial just about the skinning but about several tasks, such as animating a run cycle for example, but we need to take the time to achieve these and we are pretty busy at the moment (being a small team making huge stuff is always a...colossal task)
  • Alex_J
    Offline / Send Message
    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter
    Well im excited to check it out. Thanks for reply.

  • musashidan
    Offline / Send Message
    musashidan high dynamic range
    @Vexod14 That would be great. Just what Akeytsu needs to get more people involved. Yes, you're right, Max rigging/anim tools are very dated now. I been learning Blender 2.80 these last few months and it was actually at that time I was looking for a new animation workflow to UE4. Blender and the autorig pro addon are a great solution I've found, but I'm still very much interested in Akeytsu for a pure animation environment. :+1:
  • pior
    Offline / Send Message
    pior grand marshal polycounter
    ... "to traditional 2D animation/illustration students who never touched 3D"

    TBH this kind of user feedback can be very misleading, as people unfamiliar with the regular ways of doing things will likely have a very high level of tolerance to convoluted workflows ... because of the fun of discovering something completely new. Whereas anyone who's done skin weighting for production will want to be able to precisely select verts with a marquee and a lasso selection tool, assign them .25/.5/.75 values, and so on. It's a bit like the difference between a teenager spending hours in FN Creative having a blast placing rocks manually with a gamepad, and an enviornment artist working at lighting speed in a regular 3d program or engine.

    I can only speak for myself here but I find it extremely frustrating when software attempts to shove in some so-called "innovative" ways of doing thing *without* also offering the robust/traditional way. As a matter of fact this was my biggest gripe with Akeytsu when trying out the betas/demos earlier : the SimonSays controller with big RGB buttons for XYZ bone rotation sure seemed innovative in theory but in practice I just found it to be very cumbersome and quite slow to interact with imho, and IIRC it wasn't allowing screen-space rotation which made posing really stiff. The same applies to any cryptic icon, menu, and so on - the software seems to be suffering from being somewhat stuck in its own echo chamber. To an extent (and I understand that it might sound like a bit of a stretch !), even the weird exotic name contributes to that feeling. Kinda gives the impression that there is one weird guy at the top, very set in his unique ways and creating his own perfect and unique tool :D

    Ironically I feel like I am right in the target audience for the software (doing mostly 2d work but with a background in 3d, doing some game assets in my free time sometimes with a need to do simple poses and animations) but the app just feels too alien - or at least it felt like so when I last tried it.

    For instance the mere fact that videos of the program in action shows a 1995-style interface with no straightforward "File" menu (which is where anyone would expect to find the FBX importer and user preferences and settings) sends a bad signal imho.

    As for tutorials : video tutorials always sound trendy, but please focus on text/screenshots based documentation and quickstart docs first as having to learn a technical tool through linear video tutorials has to be one of the most frustrating thing ever.

    Sorry for the wall of text - I hope this makes sense !
  • Alex_J
    Offline / Send Message
    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter
    @pior

    Thanks this is kind of thing I'm interested to read. I watch the mouse cursor in videos going from selection to manipulator for each tweak, seems tedious as hell. But sometimes in videos people do things the slow way on purpose so I still curious.

    No screenspace gizmo sounds like no go to me. Also some time is taken to explain solutions to problems that aren't really problems. The whole weird manipulator thing is meant to reduce hunting for thin axis handles... in Maya the entire gizmo is highly modifoable. I got a big fat one with extra space for preselection. Makes selecting very fast while still accurate. So the entire thing seems to be designed for somebody who has issues that I dont.

    My main concern is, for intermediate user with basic experience in Maya, will this be like current workflow, but streamlined? What I don't like is something novel, with its own weird viewport controls and all that. I just want refinement to the common workflow.


  • musashidan
    Offline / Send Message
    musashidan high dynamic range
    @pior My thoughts exactly. I did discuss this on YT comments a few months back with Etienne above, do I didn't want to go over it again, but yes, that manipulator was an absolute pain in the arse. That and the fact you can't customise the navigation hotkeys is a nightmare. You end up stuck with that unintuitive gizmo and weird middle mouse button navigation that is alien to any other application. This was unbelievably frustrating for me when I tried it and I just dropped it.

    Compare that to animating with a Blender rig, where you can disable axis for FK and just hit R anywhere in the viewport and know exactly what is going to happen without even thinking about it or having to look 2 places at once. Also screenspace movement/rotation in Blender, and hotkey translating in general is so good that it can be hard to go back once you get used to it, :)
  • Vexod14
    Offline / Send Message
    Vexod14 polycounter
    @bitinn Have you tried Akeytsu ? I'm here if you have any question ;)
  • Vexod14
    Offline / Send Message
    Vexod14 polycounter
    New version is out ! Take a look at all its gorgeous features here : https://www.nukeygara.com/blog/december-2019-release

    Made with love ♥
  • bitinn
    Offline / Send Message
    bitinn polycounter lvl 6
    @Vexod14

    I will have some time to check it soon, will report back :)
  • monster
    Offline / Send Message
    monster polycounter
    I just tried the demo for a few hours. I used the manual, but didn't watch any videos. I've been animating in 3D for 20 years now, and workflows have remained largely unchanged. So I'm always on the lookout for the "Zbrush of Animation".

    There are all the cons I bumped into while trying it out:
    I've got 3 4K monitors, but I can only use one.
    The overlay of the curve editor looks and feels messy.
    I had one object that was an invisible wireframe. And I never figured out to change the material.
    The 3d manipulator needs a more forgiving activation range. Instead of moving or rotating an object I ended up orbiting the camera.
    The 3d manipulator is too big and in my way. 
    The rotate manipulator should have full circle in all axis. It needs a screen space rotation axis. It has a weird tumble for middle click and drag. And an option for linear rotation instead of the crank style rotation.
    Not a fan of the colored manipulator puck. If I'm looking at the puck I'm not looking at the character.
    I usually prefer text over icons, and there are a lot of icons. And the tooltips take a while to pop up, and sometimes don't pop up.
    Paradoxically, I want a graphical biped picker and not a list of joints.
    I didn't realize until after about 2 hours that the logo in the top left was the file menu.
    I clicked the ? on the cycle maker and the program froze. I had to use Task Manager to end process.
    I skinned a character and made a run cycle. It didn't feel like a breakthrough in workflow that I've been craving.
    I felt like it was a series of "Why is this the workflow?" Skinning to half a skeleton and then mirroring the joints feels weird. The timeline has way more information than I need.
    I appreciated the skeleton presets. But the how to use page for them glosses over a few crucial pieces of info. What info? Exactly.

    If there are plans to be able to support multiple monitors and a dedicated curve editor window, I'll try it again at that time.
    But the biggest deal breaker for me recommending it to my studio is there is no scripting language supported. 
  • Vexod14
    Offline / Send Message
    Vexod14 polycounter
    Hello there ! There is actually a special offer on trial versions if you want to test it more further ♥


  • Vexod14
    Offline / Send Message
    Vexod14 polycounter
    A few news here : https://polycount.com/discussion/comment/2723247#Comment_2723247

    Btw, we've made a brand new trailer that shows past year 2019 improvements as well as a few "basics" of akeytsu ;)

     https://youtu.be/nKUHED36SpM
Sign In or Register to comment.