Do 3D Artists need to be good at Substance Designer?

PastyPict

I hope this is the right place to ask.

 

There is a bunch of different software for 3D Artists to learn and are advised to learn. As an aspiring game artist, I have learned 3DS Max, Blender, Photoshop, Substance Painter, ZBrush, Unity, UE4, briefly used Mudbox, Quixel, just recently started learning Maya, and intend to delve into Marvelous Designer soon.

Maybe I'm just whinging and being really precious, but I'd say that's a fair amount of software to learn for one role as is, and I recognise there is still more for me to learn in each software despite being able to get projects done at an intermediate level at least, but is Substance Designer a necessity for me as a 3D artist?

 

All materials in Substance Designer that I have made are all pretty crap when not being handheld by one of the courses I bought, and the node workflow for material authoring doesn't seem to play nice with my brain. I did get better after practicing for a while and I'm sure I'd continue to get better if I spend a lot more time with it, but trying to find time in the day outside of a day job to learn all the necessary software is difficult enough as it is. I'm sure most would agree that this is a field that's hard work and takes a lot of practice to become competent in.

I'm fine with using existing materials and blending them, and I've heard that some professionals tried Designer and stopped using it for the same reason and stick to either authoring their materials using more traditional methods like ZBrush and Photoshop/Substance Painter, or they use materials made by other people, like using Substance Source.
I've also seen jobs appearing for Material Artists, Substance Designer Material Authoring, or whatever.

Is this becoming a stand-alone role like Rigging? Is it becoming commonplace to have people whose job is specifically to create a material library for 3D Artists to utilize?

 

If that's the case, does that mean it's acceptable to use materials from Substance Source when texturing pieces for my portfolio?

And do I need to know Substance Designer really well to work as a 3D Artist or 3D Environment Artist in games?

 

Thanks for reading through my long-winded question and any helpful answers are much appreciated.

Taylor Brown

In my experience, not at all. At my company only a handful of our artists (40~ member team) can use SD at an expert level. It's somewhat rare that we even need to apply that knowledge to our projects. It doesn't detract from our work nor is it a pre-req for being hired. More of a nice addition to someone's skill set. Personally, my brain can't think in nodes so I've given up trying despite all the tutorials I've done for SD.

PastyPict

Thank goodness, that's good to know.

Thanks for answering.

defragger

PastyPict said:

... is Substance Designer a necessity for me as a 3D artist?

no, however I would say that Substance Painter or a similar texturing tool is a must.

I'm sure most would agree that this is a field that's hard work and takes a lot of practice to become competent in.

yes, but at the end of the day it's just a tool like any other.

Is it becoming commonplace to have people who's job is specifically to create a material library for 3D Artists to utilize?

yes, especially on large games it makes sense to have specialized devs.

... does that mean it's acceptable to use materials from Substance Source when texturing pieces for my portfolio?

depends. As a character or prop artist when you just need some background to present your work, yes. However the key elements of a portfolio piece should always be your own work.

And do I need to know Substance Designer really well to work as a 3D Artist or 3D Environment Artist in games?

3D Artist - no, but the more the better

Environment Artist - yes

To be able to create your own textures and materials is a necessary skill for an environment Artist IMHO. Doesn't have to be Substance Designer per se but it's pretty much the industry standard nowadays.

Taylor Brown

i'd recommend diving into Substance Alchemist if you haven't already. Even though its development is pretty early days, there is a lot of potential to it and it allows for some pretty interesting (and fun for non-node heads!) material creation

Ashervisalis

I think you're learning too many programs. 3DS Max, Blender, Photoshop, Substance Painter, ZBrush, Unity, UE4, Mudbox, Quixel, Maya, Marvelous Designer, and you're inquiring about Substance Designer? Your question about SD aside, learn either;

Maya or 3DS Max or Blender
Unity or UE4
ZBrush or Mudbox

As someone just beginning, you're spending time learning multiple programs which do the same thing, and it's probably eating into the time you can spend making super cool art.

Regarding your question about Substance Designer; it's not mandatory, but it can speed up your texturing process once you learn it.

PastyPict

@Ashervisalis

Thanks for your response!

I sort of abandoned Mudbox after college and focused more on ZBrush, so I guess I've chosen that one.

But for Maya, 3DS Max, and Blender, while I already know how to use 3DS Max, I have overall spent more time in Blender, so I am much more familiar, comfortable and efficient with it.

The reason I started learning Maya and try to stay up to date with 3DS Max is because Blender users are seemingly only just starting to be taken slightly more seriously by a small amount of Autodesk users (from what I have seen anyway), and as far as I am aware most companies either don't take Blender seriously or they consider it too much of a risk to hire someone who is primarily a Blender user and not Max/Maya. I've even been told by young and old 3D artists that at some point, Blender users need to abandon Blender to be taken seriously and to have a chance of being hired. But for financial reasons I have been using Blender over Max/Maya for an indie game project I've been working on, so that takes time away from practicing the more accepted industry standard software.

However, I've also heard from others that Blender will be more, or just as accepted in the near future, but that is taking a lot longer than claimed.

Alex_J

I'd say forget about learning programs. Learn problems and how to solve them.

For instance, problem: I need to create a realistic character to be animated in a game in unreal engine.

Then question is, what's the most efficient path to get that job done? Then you realize the question isn't "do i need to know SD?" It's, do i have a problem that SD might help solve?

If you focus on the tools without understanding the problem you can spend tons of time "learning" but developing little practical application power.

Whether you use blender or maya don't matter. Once you understand the problems of 3d, learning how to apply a different tool is easy.

Ashervisalis

@Alex Javor You can't say someone learning 3D art should forget about learning programs. An artist should figure out what they want to specialize in, find out what the current industry standard programs required for this are, and learn them.

I'd also say choosing Maya over Blender is a better decision if an artist's goal is to land a job, so it would matter. I've heard people on this forum say the tools you use don't matter, it's the end result that matters, and a good artist can be taught the tools required for a job. I have, however, had interested recruiters suddenly break communication with me just because I wasn't experienced in using 3DS Max, so that advice can go out the window.

Hate to disagree with ya, but I needed to

Alex_J

I think you simplified and misunderstood. The program is the tool. You can't not learn it.

But learning to swing hammer is not the same as learning to build house.

But you don't learn to build a house by having carpenter show you one tool at a time and telling you what it does. You learn by seeing the problems that exist and then it's very easy to understand how the tools solve these problems. It's why project based tutorials stick with youu and "here's everything inside maya" tutorials do not.

And my tip to you -- if somebody ask if you know 3dsmax, just say yes. You aint gonna start the job within a week and you can learn in the meantime. I've done this many times and never backfired.

poopipe

Pro tip. 

If someone asks you if you know how to use max and you don't.   Say "no, but I can learn"

If you bullshit me in an interview you're probably not going to make it to the end of your probation period. And with the nature of the industry  there's a fair chance someone at the next place you try will know me.. 

Alex_J

Yeah but that pro tip is gonna lose him the job. Because somebody else is gonna say, "hell yeah I know 3dsmax." 

Probably they are telling the truth. But maybe they aren't. And you never gonna know because when they show up for work, they'll know 3dsmax. And whats the difference? They got the job. Sorry to say, but honesty is rarely the best policy. Not in an environment that is, from teh top down, not based on honesty. Performance is the best policy. You do the work, you do the work. Nobody cares what you did to get there. So if you know you can perform, get your ass in position to do so.

It's only BS if you don't do the hard work to make sure it doesn't become BS. It's a tactical risk. If you don't have complete confidence that you can learn 3dsmax in time before job starts, don't be foolish and make the lie.

We all are part of the team and have responsibility towards each other. The leader has more than others. Every day they make decisions that will benefit or harm the people around them. It's a lot of pressure. If you want to be the best leader you can be, you must learn to work under pressure and take risk. The difference between the best leaders and the others is if they take more smart risk, and less dumb risk.  Always a balancing act. Like anything else, learning to manage pressure and risk takes practice. The best time to practice is when your failure has minimal impact on others.

Important question to always ask, "if I fail, who gets hurt and how much?" If the pain is only on your end, take the risk. You gonna benefit.

CrackRockSteady

Alex Javor said:

Yeah but that pro tip is gonna lose him the job. Because somebody else is gonna say, "hell yeah I know 3dsmax." 

Probably they are telling the truth. But maybe they aren't. And you never gonna know because when they show up for work, they'll know 3dsmax. And whats the difference? They got the job. Sorry to say, but honesty is rarely the best policy. Not in an environment that is, from teh top down, not based on honesty. Performance is the best policy. You do the work, you do the work. Nobody cares what you did to get there. So if you know you can perform, get your ass in position to do so.

It's only BS if you don't do the hard work to make sure it doesn't become BS. It's a tactical risk. If you don't have complete confidence that you can learn 3dsmax in time before job starts, don't be foolish and make the lie.

We all are part of the team and have responsibility towards each other. The leader has more than others. Every day they make decisions that will benefit or harm the people around them. It's a lot of pressure. If you want to be the best leader you can be, you must learn to work under pressure and take risk. The difference between the best leaders and the others is if they take more smart risk, and less dumb risk.  Always a balancing act. Like anything else, learning to manage pressure and risk takes practice. The best time to practice is when your failure has minimal impact on others.

Important question to always ask, "if I fail, who gets hurt and how much?" If the pain is only on your end, take the risk. You gonna benefit.

Trust me, people who have been professional 3d artists for years are going to be able to tell if you just spent the last week or two desperately trying to pick up a program that you don't know.  It's going to be painfully obvious that you don't actually know the software, and like poopipe said, you probably won't last to the end of your probation period, and likely someone at the next studio is going to hear about how you're the guy who lied about knowing software and got the boot before your probation ended.

So actually it'll cost you that job you thought you had, and maybe the next opportunity too.

When someone asks in an interview if you "know X software", they're not asking if you have the sort of cursory knowledge of the software that you can pick up over the course of a week.  They're asking if you have the depth of knowledge that comes from months or years of using the software day in and day out.  It is extremely easy to tell the difference once someone starts working for you.

If your work is good, an interviewer is going to care a whole lot less about the fact that you don't know the software as long as you're able to learn, than they are going to care that you lied to their face during the interview.

Alex_J

great points!

PixelMasher

yea I totally agree. for my first job in the interview they asked me if I knew maya, and I told them I have never used it but am pretty comfortable with the 3d modeling skillset and view different softwares as just tools on the belt. I told them I felt I could comfortably ramp up in maya within a few weeks. 

they were totally cool with that and gave me an art test to do, which i did in max and they liked the results so they hired me. I was a jr so they knew I was going to take some mentoring and have a longer ramp up period, but they paired me with a senior artist for my first month and it was smooth sailing from there.

Tools are just one sliver (5%??) of the hiring process and probably the least important part. I would rather hire someone with an awesome personality and attitude who only has used modo before even if the studio is max based, than some 3ds max genius who has a huge ego or is super weird/awkward to interact with on a daily basis. as long as they show the ability to create technically efficient models and show wireframes that clearly demonstrate they know how to model an object, their software package prefferences are pretty much the last in line in determining if the thumbs up or down to hire the person after interviewing.

I don't think I have ever even heard the reason for not hiring someone be " well they were super awesome and clearly talented, but they didnt know max!" 

I know it's going to be brought up:  what if you have 2 people who are the exact same in terms of skill except one person knows the studio software!? in my 12 years of working in the game industry and being pretty involved with the hiring processes for my departments this has never happened. peoples personalities are usually wildly different and there is always 1-2 standouts in a group of 10 applicants who are brought in for interviews. portfolio gets people's attention and gets you into the interview, and your personality is more often than not the clincher that gets you the job, not knowing max/maya. And if you are applying to be a materials artist, yes you should obviously be really good at substance. 

PastyPict

@poopipe, @Alex Javor , @CrackRockSteady

Thanks for the advice. My problem wouldn't so much be bullshitting in an interview. I would be concerned that I would be too honest if anything, or more importantly, not selling myself, which is definitely a skill I will admit I need to work on, and that's feedback I just recently got from my new day job.

@PixelMasher

Okay, cool. That's relief to know that the software is considered less important that the personality and the ability to make good art.
I'm not aiming for being a material artist though, more of an environment artist, and trying to find time to do character art in my spare time in case anything comes of that. But I have seen numerous jobs on Artstation for environment artists where Substance Designer is listed as a required skill.