Zbrush 2019 New Features

Ruflse

Dunno if there's a thread about this so I decided to create one.
So, what do you guys think of Zbrush 2019 new features?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rmrq2xt7P8
http://pixologic.com/features/

Basically:
- Zbrush renders but with Photoshop style filters
- Snapshot 3D to create models using alphas with a boolean-like system
- Improved Zremesher
- Being able to organize your subtools into folders
- Improved camera controls, with actual perspective now
- Being able to create a mask using booleans to substract two models
- Being able to create a color palette and save it as a file
- You can now choose to pay for a temporal version of Zbrush
- The permanent version now only supports a single yearly update (?)

Pretty disappointing imo
I just wanted to be able to rotate models without losing symmetry inside of Zbrush I do hope to see at least some experimentation with Zbrush new rendering options for stylized renders, and the folders and new camera options are nice I guess.

Serek

but wait - where is uv peel ?

Ashervisalis

Did past versions of ZBrush include unlimited updates when you owned the program? It would be nice if they had a rent to own payment scheme.

Octo

Ruflse said:

I just wanted to be able to rotate models without losing symmetry inside of Zbrush

Doesn't poseable symmetry allow you to do that? At least if your topology is symmetric.

Zack Maxwell

So wait, will we need to pay to upgrade from 2018 to 2019 now that they've changed the payment structure? That seems like a weird thing to leave out. It also said nothing of an upgrade cost; and if we'll be paying full price each year to upgrade, ZBrush will have just gone from one of the cheaper 3D software to one of the most expensive.

Laughing_Bun

My understanding is that 2019 will be free for existing customers but they are setting up 2020 to start a new payment model. Tis a bummer but godamn they deserve it.

Ruflse

Octo said:

Ruflse said:

I just wanted to be able to rotate models without losing symmetry inside of Zbrush

Doesn't poseable symmetry allow you to do that? At least if your topology is symmetric.

Poseable symmetry is pretty messed up most of the time and you don't get a perfect symmetrical result between both sides, so for me is not an option

Neox

Zack Maxwell said:

So wait, will we need to pay to upgrade from 2018 to 2019 now that they've changed the payment structure? That seems like a weird thing to leave out. It also said nothing of an upgrade cost; and if we'll be paying full price each year to upgrade, ZBrush will have just gone from one of the cheaper 3D software to one of the most expensive.

"ZBrush 2019 is a free upgrade for all registered users. To learn how to upgrade, click here."

didnt find anything for future upgrades yet tho.

but talking about 30 bucks a month as being one of the most expensive tools is a little far fetched. we are speaking about 360 dollar per year. That is not expensive by any means, for a tool as important as zbrush.
They needed to monetize zbrush at one point, I am actually surprised it didnt happen earlier.
They saturated their own market very well, the free updates needed them to grow the market all the time to keep making money and to pay their staff to work on it.

Justo

"Subscriptions receive automatic upgrades as new versions are released"

"Perpetual licenses have a higher cost up front, but no recurring costs. The software is yours forever.  Free upgrades are guaranteed for at least one year from date of purchase but may continue past that at the sole discretion of Pixologic."

https://support.pixologic.com/Knowledgebase/Article/View/298/91/subscription-licensing-qa

Sooo buying perpetual licenses may or may not mean you get more than one free upgrade, but that's for them to decide. Seems to me that until we find out more about it, and how much would these upgrades cost, subscriptions look nicer since they are guaranteed to get free upgrades.

Zack Maxwell

Neox said:

Zack Maxwell said:

So wait, will we need to pay to upgrade from 2018 to 2019 now that they've changed the payment structure? That seems like a weird thing to leave out. It also said nothing of an upgrade cost; and if we'll be paying full price each year to upgrade, ZBrush will have just gone from one of the cheaper 3D software to one of the most expensive.

"ZBrush 2019 is a free upgrade for all registered users. To learn how to upgrade, click here."

didnt find anything for future upgrades yet tho.

but talking about 30 bucks a month as being one of the most expensive tools is a little far fetched. we are speaking about 360 dollar per year. That is not expensive by any means, for a tool as important as zbrush.
They needed to monetize zbrush at one point, I am actually surprised it didnt happen earlier.
They saturated their own market very well, the free updates needed them to grow the market all the time to keep making money and to pay their staff to work on it.

I agree they deserve to start getting recurring payments, but $900 a year is insane. The only software I'm aware of with a higher cost comes from Autodesk. Even Modo, which is full-featured 3D software with sculpting, modeling, texturing, rigging, animating, rendering, etc is only $400 a year after the initial purchase.
I'm hoping they just left out upgrade costs because they have no plan in place yet for it.

Wesley

Where are you getting 900 a year from? It’s 900 forever. If you’re talking about getting constant access to the latest then it’s 360 a year, which doesn’t seem that crazy to me?

The idea that people are mad with zBrush after 20 years of free updates is amazing. 

RaptorCWS

Zack Maxwell said:

Neox said:

Zack Maxwell said:

So wait, will we need to pay to upgrade from 2018 to 2019 now that they've changed the payment structure? That seems like a weird thing to leave out. It also said nothing of an upgrade cost; and if we'll be paying full price each year to upgrade, ZBrush will have just gone from one of the cheaper 3D software to one of the most expensive.

"ZBrush 2019 is a free upgrade for all registered users. To learn how to upgrade, click here."

didnt find anything for future upgrades yet tho.

but talking about 30 bucks a month as being one of the most expensive tools is a little far fetched. we are speaking about 360 dollar per year. That is not expensive by any means, for a tool as important as zbrush.
They needed to monetize zbrush at one point, I am actually surprised it didnt happen earlier.
They saturated their own market very well, the free updates needed them to grow the market all the time to keep making money and to pay their staff to work on it.

I agree they deserve to start getting recurring payments, but $900 a year is insane. The only software I'm aware of with a higher cost comes from Autodesk. Even Modo, which is full-featured 3D software with sculpting, modeling, texturing, rigging, animating, rendering, etc is only $400 a year after the initial purchase.
I'm hoping they just left out upgrade costs because they have no plan in place yet for it.

They are not going to list an upgrade price if they are not requiring people to pay for an upgrade. and if/when they do start it probably wont be the full price of the software. I really dont want to pay for upgrade either but its hard to complain when I have not had to pay for one for since I bought the software in 2011

Aabel

I hope they do start charging for upgrades. It will create some accountability to their customers in the development roadmap.

onionhead_o

Is anybody got the update yet? Im still waiting for my 2019 version?

pior

Regarding the future cost of upgrades : it's also good to remember that even if an update is free, that doesn't mean that it is a necessary upgrade. So the same goes for this new business model : even if the upgrade from 2019 to the next one turns out to be something like 100USD or so, the perpetual 895USD license is still the one to go for for a daily user. Because you can just buy it once, and keep using it for, well, forever at no additional cost - without being forced to upgrade, and without necessarily having to shell out 100USD for the next update.

If anything I highly doubt that they will count each year as a paid upgrade. I'd speculate that the next big one (requiring a paid upgrade) would be 2021 or so.

In other words : no, you don't need the most recent version of a software to make great work. Once factoring the time and energy lost because of bugs inevitably slipping through fresh releases, the time it may take to port one's ui and shortcuts, and other small annoyances quickly piling up, it's safe to say that upgrading every time there is a new version out there is a net negative. It's always been true for Max and Maya, it's always been true for OS releases, and it's always been true for Zbrush.

Now admittedly this 2019 release alone seems interesting just for the new camera (although it's safer to keep one's expectations low for that one). Can't wait to try it ... but only once they patch all the bugs of this initial release first, probably in a couple months or so. Until then 4R7 is still pretty solid

thomasp

Aabel said:

I hope they do start charging for upgrades. It will create some accountability to their customers in the development roadmap.

Accountability like we have regularly seen from other developers - where old bugs from a decade ago still linger? But! Look over here! - we bought out some plugin for you that we will integrate - ohh the possibilities! Also, we are going to deprecate it in a version or two...

As for Z: the ability to organize subtools in folders is worth the upgrade to me, that's my most wanted feature since whenever. As usual I'll wait it out till a few point releases have been published - I do like my experience to be hassle-free.

Aside from that I only do upgrades when there's a real need (still on 4R8 here) so I think going forward the perpetual license sounds fine with me.

Aabel

thomasp said:

Accountability like we have regularly seen from other developers - where old bugs from a decade ago still linger? But! Look over here! - we bought out some plugin for you that we will integrate - ohh the possibilities! Also, we are going to deprecate it in a version or two...

Pixologic does have history of going down development dead ends but they are no where near as bad as Autodesk. Well not yet anyway.

cryrid

I don't see what all the hoopla about future upgrades is for. They've been saying for at least two years now that they might eventually start charging for them after twenty years of free ones. They're not charging for at least another year, and they're certainly not charging $900 for one. We don't even know that an upgrade will cost the equivalent of a yearly subscription, existing users might only cost $40 for all we know. And even then its optional as Pior stated 

onionhead_o said:
Is anybody got the update yet? Im still waiting for my 2019 version?

It's not due to be released until 12pm PST today, so another 30 minutes or so. 

onionhead_o

finally download it, but unable to activate it. great!

knacki

After some problems, they fixed the activation

Neox

onionhead_o said:

finally download it, but unable to activate it. great!

why so impatient? it is to beexpected that it will have bugs that need a hotfix anyways...

@pior
i dunno, as soon as you work _with_ your clients not just for them, my experience, you are locked to whatever version they use, if you don't always wanna go the sorta unreliable route of export and reconstruct.
to be fair clients always update all the time, ours are on 4r8. but i am still on 4r7 if I just work without the client being involved  

pior

Right right ! 100% agreed. I should probably have mentioned that I meant it more for the cases when one has full control over one's pipeline. Thankfully enough Zbrush data is "raw" enough, allowing for easy enough transfer/subdiv recreation too. But yeah, no perfect solution here for sure.

FourtyNights

@pior Wait, so 4R7 is the most stable ZBrush after all? I'm about to buy a ZBrush soon to leave my old 4R6 (you can guess why I'm using that old, 'cos I'm planning to BUY it now, lol...) behind for once and all... but I remember even hearing about 2018 being slow performance-wise, so I'm kind of worried a bit, to spend 895 for 2019, which may have even more bugs.

EDIT: I've used 4R7 at work briefly, and yeah, it was pretty solid.

pior

Well I cannot really make any definitive statement on that topic because I don't use the app that much - just for some support sculpting here and there, and not very often. I just decided to stick to 4R7 after experiencing issues with an early release of R8, and not being convinced by the usefulness of the new manipulator and new booleans. Also because I wouldn't want risking the Blender Goz bridge to break. Just another case of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" really

FourtyNights

@pior The only drawback with 4R6 I'm using, is it being a 32-bit, so it can't use RAM more than 4 Gb, but other than that it has provided me all the features I need. Yet I haven't had many performance issues either, but a 64-bit ZBrush could boost things a lot, I think.

I've also heard that crashing and unstableness with never ZBrush versions starting from 4R8 is mostly about using newest fancy tools and settings, while the basic core toolset, the roots of ZBrush is working fine without problems for many people.

Most of the time I'm just sculpting characters and their anatomy from a low poly basemesh with subdivision levels, with few quite basic brushes. Other more like special features of ZBrush I use are:

- polygroups

- lazy mouse

- 3d layers

- morph targets & morph brush (usually together with 3d layers for non-destructive workflow)

- fibermesh (mostly for creating bakeable hair, eyelashes and eyebrows)

Also some Smart ReSym when working one side at a time, for example. But in general nothing too fancy (might have forgotten something, but you get the point). I'm not even using dynamesh much, I don't like it. And to be honest, I haven't craved for any new features added after 4R6, except the upgrade to 64-bit.

So, I'm looking forward to see some experience from people starting to use 2019 soon.

onionhead_o

I apologize for me haste. From my Brief test with 2019. I haven't been able to get the Nice remesher results as shown on the presentation video. I mean overall the algorithm is better. its just its still not as perfect as they have made it sound like. It seems to not like complex meshes with mixed resolution. like tiny details mixed with broad shapes mixed with long thin polys. sometimes it will even try to round the corners of the polygrouped areas. I suspect that it work best with meshes with no bevels at all. also too many polygroups seems to throw it off as well. I could be missing some special setting.

Alex_J

I've played with some of the new features and I think I'll stick with 2018 as I don't feel like setting up my config files again. Not all of it transfers cleanly as the menus have changed.

Folders is the only thing I was really excited about but they are still kind of wonky and don't really seem to give me the workflow ease I was expecting. They just allow you to do things you could already do but in a different way, and I've already got ways for doing those things down. It would be nice if all applications moved towards a standardized method that was based on your basic file explorer setup.

Zremesher... is this very common to use in a production environment? I never see a reason to use it for character art. As such I don't even bother to check it out.

CheeseOnToast

Pior, you're really missing out on some good stuff with the manipulator. It's not just a more conventional way of moving/scaling/rotating. There's a whole bunch of deformers built into it, as well as the ability to manipulate multiple subtools once, at any subdivision level, without using transpose master. Plus you can still switch back to the old transpose lines if the task at hand is better served by them.

Brian "Panda" Choi

@BIGTIMEMASTER
Zremesher is nice to get a quick low LOD version of a sculpted mesh that didn't come in with an original low LOD

Alex_J

i know that... but say for character work, do you typically work with zremeshed stuff over doing retopo manually? It seems like I always want to do it manually so I can control things which make the whole process easier. Like, if I build the low, then I can design it to be easy for UV's and texturing, whereas if I just zremesh... well I think I'd end up just building it again unless it was like a box or something.

But clearly a lot of people are using it. I just don't understand where exactly it fits besides for something like concepting.

edit : sorry i didn't realize you wrote LOD version, and instead thought you meant just get a quick low version, presuming that would be like your game res model.

Brian "Panda" Choi

Naw, just a LOD that's useful for keeping things unstressed on the PC while sculpting

Noren

Justo said:

Sooo buying perpetual licenses may or may not mean you get more than one free upgrade, but that's for them to decide. Seems to me that until we find out more about it, and how much would these upgrades cost, subscriptions look nicer since they are guaranteed to get free upgrades.

If you don't currently own Zbrush and have to buy a new version, a 2 year subscription (4 x 6 month) doesn't look that much better, and while they might be preparing to charge for upgrades, which I can't blame them for, there is a good chance you'll get updates longer than than. (I might be wrong, but I don't think there even was a guarantee for any specific timeframe for free updates so far. We just got free updates). Plus you can use your version forever. Subscription makes only sense if you plan to use Zbrush predictably sparingly or can't afford the perpetual version at the moment.

thomasp

FourtyNights said:

@pior The only drawback with 4R6 I'm using, is it being a 32-bit, so it can't use RAM more than 4 Gb, but other than that it has provided me all the features I need. Yet I haven't had many performance issues either, but a 64-bit ZBrush could boost things a lot, I think.

If you haven't had an issue so far then it may not be worth to upgrade. The experience is all very dependant on how you work anyway. E.g. 4R7 has been the worst version by far for me - crashing at even the simplest of tasks. That version cured me from staying up to date.

4R6 was fine here, probably best overall: aka not crashing in weeks - but too limited when it came to working with larger files.

Laughing_Bun

Am I the only one who finds the subtool menu really annoying now. I can only see about 4 tools at a time... Is there anyway to elongate that menu so I can see more?

Alex_J

yeah it's got a slider on top to adjust the length of it.

I don't really like the new menu either. Where did auto collapse go? I suppose it's not necessary to use the start groups anymore, but I was kind of use to that. The new menu is like halfway between a normal menu and zbrush weirdness, so it just kind of throws me off.

musashidan

I can't believe people are whinging about the new pricing scheme. It's about time Pixo made some extra cash. I've been using it since ver1.52 and haven't had to pay a single extra penny since. 

Plus the rental system is great for those that can't afford to buy outright and don't use it every day.

As for the features, the camera is a nice addition but ZB still uses its own weird scale units so being able to port cameras between ZB and all the other DCCs is a half feature without maintaining proper 1:1 real world scale. There's still a 1:100 factor between Max, for example.

Folders is something we've been asking for for years, but the subtool palette is still clunky and fiddly to use. An outliner like Max/Maya/Blender 2.80 is loooong overdue.

poopipe

Ashervisalis said:

Did past versions of ZBrush include unlimited updates when you owned the program? It would be nice if they had a rent to own payment scheme.

Yes. 
I haven't given them any money since I bought Zbrush3 which must be 11 or 12 years ago now. 

FourtyNights

Alright, so I finally bought ZBrush 2019 last Sunday, and I'm a happy owner now. After using 4R6 for almost 5 years, the newest version still feels the same which is awesome. Super easy to switch and jump right in.

The only slightly weird thing is that some functions need double clicks, like turning the "dynamic" setting off from brushes or opening/closing dividers, while it was just a single click in 4R6.

Davision3D

- I think the Non Realisitc Rendering feature is pretty cool but then again it is not like it fakes it well enough to be mistaken for tradional art. Also there are bugs in some of the Presets. (I posted quite a lot tests here including trying turnarounds with it: https://twitter.com/TocoGamescom)

- Actual cameras are nice but does they really solve that weird perspective thing that makes it always look different than in other programs?

- Folders are great, finally!

- I have not tried the Snapshot 3D thing yet but I also never really did hard surface high poly stuff in Zbrush and I'm not so sure if many people are interested in this. It looks very useful though, when you are into that sorta thing in Zbrush.

Overall I'm disappointed simply because they seemed to have fixed nothing. Sculptris Pro still has the same problems and it looks like performance got worse. Is anyone here into Sculptris Pro? I love the very fast workflow it allows but it seems it did not catch on with many artists. The biggest issues I sill have is with using layers and polypaint, lots of issues there that seem to never get fixed. Its also not a very stable version, well, seems to be like 2018 in that regards.

Also, this

- Being able to create a mask using booleans to substract two models
- Being able to create a color palette and save it as a file

But still no way to save masks? (The need for UV and save as texture is crap and layers have problems)

mazz423

Some of the core features of the new version look pretty enticing, haven't yet gone for my upgrade from 2018 but may well soon, having proper camera settings is nice and finally getting subtool folders is very appreciated  I do wish that they focused more on stabilization and long term core changes to the software, although that being said I seem to have gotten lucky and have found 2018 far more stable than 4r8, that version crashed on me more than any previous version.

On the subject of monetization, I really have no issue with the potential of having to pay for an upgrade in the near future (sure would be great to get a decent discount ) but I bought my copy of zbrush back when it was R3 I believe, and haven't had to pay for an update or upgrade in over 10 years, so I could stomach forking out a couple hundred quid toward a new version or switching to subscription.

musashidan

FourtyNights said:

The only slightly weird thing is that some functions need double clicks, like turning the "dynamic" setting off from brushes or opening/closing dividers, while it was just a single click in 4R6.

Yeah, the double click dividers got me too, but I was delighted because it used to drive me nuts closing/opening them by accident all the time.

root

$30/month zbrush means I can afford zbrush now.

Laughing_Bun

Davision3D said:

Overall I'm disappointed simply because they seemed to have fixed nothing. Sculptris Pro still has the same problems and it looks like performance got worse. Is anyone here into Sculptris Pro? I love the very fast workflow it allows but it seems it did not catch on with many artists. The biggest issues I sill have is with using layers and polypaint, lots of issues there that seem to never get fixed. Its also not a very stable version, well, seems to be like 2018 in that regards.

I never use sculptris pro for actual sculpting but it is a super handy tool to work with models that don't have backfaces, or areas that get wonky geo. Certain scenarios dynamesh doesn't work so having another option to manipulate geo is very nice. Really helpful for processing scan data and that sort of thing.

Davision3D

Laughing_Bun said:

Davision3D said:

Overall I'm disappointed simply because they seemed to have fixed nothing. Sculptris Pro still has the same problems and it looks like performance got worse. Is anyone here into Sculptris Pro? I love the very fast workflow it allows but it seems it did not catch on with many artists. The biggest issues I sill have is with using layers and polypaint, lots of issues there that seem to never get fixed. Its also not a very stable version, well, seems to be like 2018 in that regards.

I never use sculptris pro for actual sculpting but it is a super handy tool to work with models that don't have backfaces, or areas that get wonky geo. Certain scenarios dynamesh doesn't work so having another option to manipulate geo is very nice. Really helpful for processing scan data and that sort of thing.

Haven't even thought of scan data and fixing meshes, I can totally see that being very useful! Except when Sculptris Pro is the thing that creates a horrific polygons mess https://twitter.com/TocoGamescom/status/1101546148391800833

I found this guy seemingly creating lots of his amazing detailed sculpts with Scultris Pro: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/l254e

You need a beefy PC for that though and I found a lot of the brushes just work bad with it. I treat it very much as fast sketch sculpting without using any smoothing also because my PC needs to be better.

zachagreg

I liked Sculptris Pro a lot in the 2018 release. Having really fast clay buildup, move, and morph was awesome for building out organic shapes quickly. Now it's an unusable mess, I don't know what exactly happened but turning it on tanks performance really fast now with 2019. I do make use of the new zeremesher because that in tandem with the PolyGroupIt provides some really nice fast control over building out stone walls and the like with fairly clean topology.

Folders are nice but I haven't used them too much yet so people saying they're clunky worries me. I feel like folders by nature shouldn't be that way. Couldn't give a damn really about the rest of the stuff.

lotet

Serek said:

but wait - where is uv peel ?

I second this, any news on the UV tools they showed earlier?

pior

@zachagreg : that actually sounds pretty cool (re. Sculptris pro 2018).

What would be the best/recommended way to get 2018 up and running without messing up a previous installation ? I'd like to keep my 4r7 in its exact state, while experimenting with 2018 (not 2019).

Asking this here because IIRC the official Pixologic help pages on upgrading  do contradict what the app itself suggests - hence I'd rather follow practical user's advice rather than relying on potentially outdated or erroneous information. Thanks !

gnoop

I would say I would long abandoned  Zbrush  if not its free updates.   And I recall I first tried to persuade the company I  worked for  to buy it around 2000. It was quite expensive then  before dropping to $200.

It IMO turned into kind of lookdev application for nice pictures unrelated to job tasks.  

    My last excitement and then disappointment was introduction of multi mesh scattering.   As always they did it most weird and inconvenient way ever possible.  Then one more time with Keyshot , same disappointment.

  I just no more following their news , just not believing anymore  anything useful would come out.   Not their fault probably,  just a limitation of approach and concept. But they could replace useless materials to modern PBR ones with materiel vertex channel as a spec /roughness one at least .  

zachagreg

pior said:

@zachagreg : that actually sounds pretty cool (re. Sculptris pro 2018).

What would be the best/recommended way to get 2018 up and running without messing up a previous installation ? I'd like to keep my 4r7 in its exact state, while experimenting with 2018 (not 2019).

Asking this here because IIRC the official Pixologic help pages on upgrading  do contradict what the app itself suggests - hence I'd rather follow practical user's advice rather than relying on potentially outdated or erroneous information. Thanks !

Some of the folders have changed places to the ZData folder, most of the UI stuff I believe is now located in the ZData folder. I can give you a more precise answer when I get home on that. All of your ZAlphas, ZBrushes and what not should only need to be relocated to the corresponding 2018 folders. I'm sure @cryrid can be more of a help than I since I still follow their advice off of the old Zbrush Custom UI thread.

Blond

Hopefully, if it is confirmed that users will have to pay for upgrade licenses, I hope they`re going to get some form of discount or deduction..Anyway, I'm not a ZB users but damn does this software looks powerful..

Davision3D

I kinda want to go back to Zbrush 2018 because of the Sculptris Pro performance but I guess that is not really a option with the crappy license system.

pior said:

@zachagreg : that actually sounds pretty cool (re. Sculptris pro 2018).

What would be the best/recommended way to get 2018 up and running without messing up a previous installation ? I'd like to keep my 4r7 in its exact state, while experimenting with 2018 (not 2019).

Asking this here because IIRC the official Pixologic help pages on upgrading  do contradict what the app itself suggests - hence I'd rather follow practical user's advice rather than relying on potentially outdated or erroneous information. Thanks !

Make sure to save your hotkeys to a file. I made the mistake to not do that with my transition to 2019 and had to redo them. Otherwise, taking over brushes and materials is no problem with copy paste in the same folders. But having multiple version activated does not work, you always have to deactivate the previous versions before you can activate a new version.