The Rockstar Employee controversy

fdfxd2

Kind of surprised that there's no thread on this but,

https://comicbook.com/gaming/2018/10/17/harsh-rockstar-games-working-conditions-red-dead-redemption-2/

https://mashable.com/article/rockstar-games-red-dead-redemption-2-crunch-explained/#YA9bMLVAbOqC

I'm a bit shocked by the complete apathy shown towards the game developers by the "fans" of the series, I know it's just a small subset but still

CarlCraft

The first I heard of this was how the writers of RDR2 worked 100+hour/weeks in the final stretch, and what I could gather from it they were doing it by own choice. Since then I only thought of all the Rockstar drama as misleading, since it were only a few people doing it for a smaller period of time by their own choice.

But here it seems I was wrong. I can honestly say that I have heard very little of how it's like working at Rockstar. I think it's pretty easy to get a general understanding of how it's like at the bigger places but Rockstar has always flown under the radar... I think a lot of people assume great games > great workplace (maybe not game devs, but gamers), but that obviously isn't the case. I'm glad people are brave enough to speak out about this stuff, knowing the risks.

garcellano

Don't know what to say. I'm sure we've heard stories like that, even 10 years ago. If I was working under a company like that, and an article like that popped up, to be blunt, I would zip my mouth and just be like "no comment" throughout all this. Might be fine with former devs, maybe, but like many, you know what you're signing up for, the moment you join the studio.

As far as the hours, gawd, idk. I'm reminded of the Life as a VFX Artist story. I just hope whatever happens, it pays off for them.

Alex_J

One person says one thing, another person says different. As an outsider, what can you say? If most people are quiet, I assume that means whatever difficulties they faced were worth it in the end. Or there really is somebody holding a gun somewhere...

If you want to know, "does the company suck?" I'd look and see how long their employees stick around. High turnover is a red flag. 

Also, when you go to your job interview, the entire purpose of the thing is not for you to sell yourself to them. That is your chance to interview the company as well. I've never been to a job interview where I wasn't asked, "do you have any questions?" You might have some generic questions to ask that you expect to make yourself look eager and well-studied, but this is your chance to ask the important questions. "When facing a tough deadline, what do you do to balance out the work?" "Would you say you're strict with your sick/leave policy?" "Can you tell me what it was like pushing ____ latest title out the door?" 
If the interviewer seems disingenuous, verify by seeking out current or past employees and asking them what the companies about.

VelvetElvis

I thought Rockstar has had a long history to insane crunch hours on most of their projects. The reason you may not hear about it is Rockstar is pretty good about suppressing bad media. They are excellent at controlling their own media. Even good media, when is that last time you saw an art blast from Rockstar on Artstation?

Nothing will stop them if they have a line of slaves waiting at their door to work 120 hours a week just to put Rockstar and GTA or RDR on their resume. Places like this don't give a shit about high turn over if you literally have hundreds of people that can start tomorrow to replace the people you lost. People who will work longer and for less money as well. 

If you want to change this, you need to start back at the schools. Educate the future developers that 100 hour work weeks are not okay. Educate them that while crunch may be necessary as you get near the end, endless crunch is a sure sign of a failure in project management and planning. Educate them that having a AAA title on your resume is no good if you have a stroke or heart issues by the time you are in your 30's.

Kwramm

The 2000's are calling - they want their "being proud of crunch culture" attitude back. Managers in the games industry should know by now that mentioning anything that could be interpreted as "we crunch" is surely going to backfire.

RyanB

Kwramm said:

The 2000's are calling - they want their "being proud of crunch culture" attitude back.

Ah yes...when I worked 70 - 100 hours a week.  So young...so naive...

another caveman

I don't get the reddit comments tho..About child labor and all...Like yeah but where are we going with these arguments....?

Brian "Panda" Choi

@another caveman
it might be legitimately a 'non game devs don't get game dev" issue on some fronts.

Wesley

VelvetElvis said:

Nothing will stop them if they have a line of slaves waiting at their door to work 120 hours a week just to put Rockstar and GTA or RDR on their resume. Places like this don't give a shit about high turn over if you literally have hundreds of people that can start tomorrow to replace the people you lost. People who will work longer and for less money as well.

I haven't really seen a high turn over. One thing that I found surprising when I started was the amount of people who had been at the company 15+ years. I've been there for just over 6 years now and I understand why now. During this time I've heard stories of devs working far more hours than I have at other studios and in some cases other studios having huge layoffs/closures (including studios who had only enquired about me working there shortly before, too!).

No one is going to claim it's all 100% perfect, but it's been a fantastic place for me. I'd maybe check out some more recent articles about this now that employees have been allowed to talk about hours. It varies across the board, some worse than others, often depending on studios and departments. For the most part it is pretty good; and has been getting better. The optional hours asked for RDR were fewer than GTAV, for example.

Zack Maxwell

VelvetElvis said:

I thought Rockstar has had a long history to insane crunch hours on most of their projects. The reason you may not hear about it is Rockstar is pretty good about suppressing bad media. They are excellent at controlling their own media. Even good media, when is that last time you saw an art blast from Rockstar on Artstation?

Nothing will stop them if they have a line of slaves waiting at their door to work 120 hours a week just to put Rockstar and GTA or RDR on their resume. Places like this don't give a shit about high turn over if you literally have hundreds of people that can start tomorrow to replace the people you lost. People who will work longer and for less money as well. 

If you want to change this, you need to start back at the schools. Educate the future developers that 100 hour work weeks are not okay. Educate them that while crunch may be necessary as you get near the end, endless crunch is a sure sign of a failure in project management and planning. Educate them that having a AAA title on your resume is no good if you have a stroke or heart issues by the time you are in your 30's.

Or unionize. Preventing stuff like this is one of the major reasons they exist. Companies can get away with all kinds of crazy stuff if countless desperate fools are perfectly willing and able to put up with it.

CrackRockSteady

Wesley said:

VelvetElvis said:

Nothing will stop them if they have a line of slaves waiting at their door to work 120 hours a week just to put Rockstar and GTA or RDR on their resume. Places like this don't give a shit about high turn over if you literally have hundreds of people that can start tomorrow to replace the people you lost. People who will work longer and for less money as well.

I haven't really seen a high turn over. One thing that I found surprising when I started was the amount of people who had been at the company 15+ years. I've been there for just over 6 years now and I understand why nmow. During this time I've heard stories of devs working far more hours than I have at other studios and in some cases other studios having huge layoffs/closures (including studios who had only enquired about me working there shortly before, too!).

No one is going to claim it's all 100% perfect, but it's been a fantastic place for me. I'd maybe check out some more recent articles about this now that employees have been allowed to talk about hours. It varies across the board, some worse than others, often depending on studios and departments. For the most part it is pretty good; and has been getting better. The optional hours asked for RDR were fewer than GTAV, for example.

It's worth noting that you work at Rockstar North in the UK where there are labor laws that prevent some of the abuses we hear about coming out of studios in the US.  (Specifically, if my understanding is correct, there is no such thing as "at will" employment)

Wesley

You can find people from the US studios out there talking about their experiences. Like I said, no one is pretending everything is perfect. But the weird reputation R* has seems, from my experience, undeserved.

CrackRockSteady

Wesley said:

You can find people from the US studios out there talking about their experiences. Like I said, no one is pretending everything is perfect. But the weird reputation R* has seems, from my experience, undeserved.

That's totally fair, I'm sure there are plenty of stories out there from R* employees who have had wonderful experiences.

Personally I have never worked there and have no firsthand experience.  But I know several people who worked at R* studios in the US and all of them had pretty bad things to say about their time working there.

The existence of people who have had positive experiences working there doesn't negate or diminish the experiences of people who endure abuses by their employers.

Count Vader

There wasn't a thread about it because most people on here/most 3D art people in general have the attitude that they are 'lucky to be doing what they do' for a job, and would 'be in another field if they cared about money or a decent work-life balance,' so to them working 100 hour weeks is totally fine. 

As long as people keep having these attitudes, companies like R* will keep preying on them.

NikhilR

Count Vader said:

There wasn't a thread about it because most people on here/most 3D art people in general have the attitude that they are 'lucky to be doing what they do' for a job, and would 'be in another field if they cared about money or a decent work-life balance,' so to them working 100 hour weeks is totally fine. 

As long as people keep having these attitudes, companies like R* will keep preying on them.

I did read in the article that a lot of the seniors chose to do a lot of overtime, though they get payed very well.
Not to say the pay was their motivation.

Alex_J

Count Vader said:

As long as people keep having these attitudes, companies like R* will keep preying on them.

Without knowing the full situation, it's probably best not to accuse anybody of anything, but here are a few of my thoughts: 

1. An employer/manager taking advantage of young peoples high levels of motivation is not necessarily predatory behavior. Again, without knowing the full situation, it's probably best not to make any accusations or assumptions. If one or a few people come out and make claims of predatory behavior while the majority stay quiet or speak against, in my experience that's indicative of personal issues between people, not endemic management issues. Not always true of course, just my experience. But my work experience is in totally separate professions, so it's worth whatever it's worth. Main point is, don't take peoples word at face value, but do treat everyone fairly, no matter what their position is.

2. Young people (or any people lacking experience) can be naive and thus are easier to prey upon. Decent people don't like to watch others suffer, so there is two options. Enact legislation to protect against predatory practices, and educate others with best practices to defend themselves against predators. Both are viable and necessary steps to making a better workplace. What you don't want to do demonize people, because then you've started a war. And nobody wins wars. Everybody loses.

You have to understand that most of the time, the people in charge mean to do right, and even if they don't, you still treat them like you expect them to. Just like if your subordinates aren't doing well, you don't just call them shitbags and throw them out, right? You exercise patience, you get to know them better, and you try to find a way to get them to understand your expectations and get them motivated to meet them. Likewise, just because somebody is in charge of you and they aren't meeting your expectations for a leader doesn't mean you should write them off. You train them how to treat you. Usually people with more experience understand how to do this in a professional way that builds a strong team, but you have to go one step further and make sure the newer people are learning how to asset themselves in the same way. It takes a village, as they say. If you have an "every man for themselves" outlook, don't get upset when the wolves are having a frenzy.

Let me tell you, every single person on a team, whether its five people or 500, can make a major impact on the culture of the organization. People don't realize this. So if you make it your mission to improve your workplaces culture, you will see results. The key is to assess your methods -- no different than you do with your modeling. Maybe your first idea is to get up in peoples faces and tell them exactly how you feel. So you try that, and maybe it doesn't work out how you planned. Does that mean the place is just doomed? No, you just need to try a different approach. 

So I'm not victim shaming, but I do advocate that the single most effective thing a person can do to ensure they are not victim to predatory behavior and also ensure their peers are not either is to band together and discuss it. Make a plan, execute, and keep working until you meet your goals. But don't define allies and enemies. Everybody is on the same team, so the plan has to be "how can we get everybody to benefit?"

Count Vader

BIGTIMEMASTER said:
Decent people don't like to watch others suffer, so there is two options. Enact legislation to protect against predatory practices, and educate others with best practices to defend themselves against predators. Both are viable and necessary steps to making a better workplace. What you don't want to do demonize people, because then you've started a war. And nobody wins wars. Everybody loses. 

Well, educating others (e.g. the game dev/art workforce) on how to best defend against predatory practice would entail explaining to them that they should value their time, talent and energy, and not act like a company like R* is doing them a favor by allowing them to work for them. 

I think once that happens, and people start saying 'I'm not taking this job unless I get proper benefits/OT comp/decent salary/etc etc' companies are going to be like 'oops guess we can't  make games anymore until we enact some better labor practices!'

It's like @VelvetElvis said above, "Nothing will stop them if they have a line of slaves waiting at their door to work 120 hours a week just to put Rockstar and GTA or RDR on their resume.

It really is quite ridiculous, the degree to which game dev/art people have internalized the notion that their time and effort is essentially worthless. I can't think of another industry where this is the case. A video editor, graphic/motion designer, or a plumber would NEVER think of working an extra minute of overtime for free. 

Alex_J

The military is full of motivated young people who happily have signed their life away. Sometimes literally. Problem is, once you realize you've been duped, there is nothing you can do but wait to get out. 

But yeah, like you said, seniors in the industry doing their best to put the good word out and effect the mindset of new people coming in is definitely a good step forward. But nothing happens overnight.

Count Vader

BIGTIMEMASTER said:

The military is full of motivated young people who happily have signed their life away. Sometimes literally. Problem is, once you realize you've been duped, there is nothing you can do but wait to get out. 

Exactly, so you do your research prior to getting in. The institution/corporation/industry that is duping you isn't also going to take on the responsibility of educating you about the fact that you're probably gonna get duped. They're not your friend, they aren't concerned with your well being or health. 

But yeah, the issue is that of course 20 year olds who dream of working in games aren't going to be super diligent about weighting all their options and doing industry research to determine if it's really worth it or not. 

NikhilR

Count Vader said:

BIGTIMEMASTER said:

The military is full of motivated young people who happily have signed their life away. Sometimes literally. Problem is, once you realize you've been duped, there is nothing you can do but wait to get out. 

Exactly, so you do your research prior to getting in. The institution/corporation/industry that is duping you isn't also going to take on the responsibility of educating you about the fact that you're probably gonna get duped. They're not your friend, they aren't concerned with your well being or health. 

But yeah, the issue is that of course 20 year olds who dream of working in games aren't going to be super diligent about weighting all their options and doing industry research to determine if it's really worth it or not. 

I also think it depends on what they're joining a games studio to do. 

Meaning yes they want to work on games, but many newcomers can stagnate in a role and remain satisfied because its cool to have their name on a game. They could potentially move to another department but don't have the motivation to do so.

The ones that are more ambitious and push their art despite getting their foot in the door are the ones that stand to better their situation since then they have the opportunity choose to be more than just a number.