ZBrush, dynamesh + different sizes of mesh = different results ?

goekbenjamin

I am not quite sure how to explain what i mean so i will take screenshots for help
Is the size of a mesh important to create "smaller" details while dynamesh is on?

here i have 2 meshes,  "1" is the small one, and "2" is the big one


on "1" i have sculpt a donut and "drag and remeshd it with dynamesh on

- then duplicated the model "1"
- zremesh with target poly count 1,8
- divided it and "Project All" (this step 5x, so i have 5 subdivision), this is the result:




NOW THE SAME ON MESH "2"

on "2" i made the same donut, but here the mesh is not so jagged as on

- then duplicated the model "2"
- zremesh with target poly count 1,8
- divided it and "Project All" (this step 5x, so i have 5 subdivision), this is the result:


You can clearly see how "cleaner" the bigger mesh is (although mesh "1" has more ActivePoints)

Is there somehow an optimal size for a mesh?
Am i basicly understanding something wrong?

 I hope someone can help me, thanks

Brian "Panda" Choi

There is kind of an optimal size for a mesh based on the slider limits.

I personally reocmmend making sure you meshes are sized to the dummy human in Unreal Engine.  Gets a lot of head ache out of the way.

Alex_J

Yes, the size of the mesh effects what level of resolution is needed. There is no rule, just adjust the slider, dynamesh, undo if necessary. You get a feel for it with experience. But it's non destructive so nothing keeping you from trying multiple times to get what you need.

Check out deformation > unify to understand how zbrush works with scale. 

Michael Pavovlich covers this succinctly in his youtube series. Worth watching to get a jump start with the program. Zbrush is kind of weird so I think having somebody show you the ropes is well worth it. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2B0x9TkFuA&list=PLkzopwqcFevYqrk_0MKIaUwrWYILzYsp6

goekbenjamin

Brian "Panda" Choi said:

There is kind of an optimal size for a mesh based on the slider limits.

I personally reocmmend making sure you meshes are sized to the dummy human in Unreal Engine.  Gets a lot of head ache out of the way.

@Brian "Panda" Choi  What exactly do you mean by: "There is kind of an optimal size for a mesh based on the slider limits."
Do you mean the "slider limits" for the brush size?

The "Dummy Human" of unreal engine.. did you mean the "ThirdPersonCharacter"?



BIGTIMEMASTER i used zbrush a time now and i watched Pavovlichs tutorials on zbrush but i did not remember he mentioned something about the mesh size?
Good to know it is just a "experience"-thing, i wishi knew this some hours ago, it drove me like crazy not to know what i did wrong

Alex_J

It may be in his second part of the series, which you have to buy on gumroad. 

Essentially he shows you that yes, indeed mesh size matters, but it doesn't really matter because you can adjust scale at pretty much any point in your pipeline, and he also shows how you can use Unify and gives a basic rundown on how scale works in Zbrush. If you don't already know about the Unify command, I'd suggest reading the documentation about it. Pretty simple stuff -- basically zbrush has a range of sizes it works best with. 

goekbenjamin

Okay this seems pretty important to know, but somehow did not stumble across this "best value is 2"
So here is a Video explaining it:

https://youtu.be/8cdFQTpxiR0

and this explains why to bother with unify

https://youtu.be/VeqX7b5S5AE

@Brian "Panda" Choi @BIGTIMEMASTER
Thanks to inform me about that!

Alex_J

No problem. 

For a long time I always kind of hated working and zbrush, and for the same reasons as your post here. It's just weird and hard to make sense of a lot of times. So I just used it for sculpting and nothing else, and just got in and out as quick as I could.

Finally one day I decided that this was kind of stupid so I just sat down and worked through all of Michael Pavlovich's tutorials -- and it made a world of difference. Now I absolutely love working in zbrush and find new ways to integrate it into my workflows, besides just sculpting. Mike P. uses it a lot for hard surface stuff, which I still don't think I would ever do as it's just too convoluted of a workflow for my simple brain, but it's still nice to know what is possible.

goekbenjamin

Yeah Mike P. really loves his ZModeler  
There is a funny term Henning & Morten from FlippedNormals are always using... they say "ZBrush-Cowboy" to the guys who are ONLY using ZBrush xD

So i guess you bought the gumroad tutorials from him and recommend it? Is the content really that good/informative?

Alex_J

It's the best tutorials for zbrush I've found anywhere. I also think Mike is probably one of the best teachers online I've found. So, yeah for the pretty low price I think it's worth it to buy the part 2 and 3. You'll be pretty comfortable in zbrush after you go through them and they're great refernce. The videos are segmented so I usually go to them before I go to the official zbrush documentation if I need a refresher on how something works. Mike goes fast but is thorough. He always shows practical applications -- and not totally arbitrary ones either. A lot of tutorials go slow, explaining stuff that is obvious to death, but not going into depth where you want it to... so I'm a big fan of Mike's tutorials. 

Zbrush Cowboy is in reference, I think, to people who make sculpts but don't do the work of turning an asset into a game model. Or maybe people who are great sculptors but don't uinderstand how to do clean, basic block modeling. I wouldn't get to hung up on stuff like this... just learn the tools available to you and make models how you see fit. There is times when block modeling first makes sense, there is times when working 90% in zbrush makes more sense.

goekbenjamin

there is something i still dont understand.
When the optimal Size is "2" is it bad to use a larger scale?

i start with a sphere of size "2" (which is optimal),
then working on the head and at some time i model out the chest of the head,
than the size isnt 2 but greater than 2 (logicaly)
so the "2" doesnt apply always right?

@Brian "Panda" Choi said:

There is kind of an optimal size for a mesh based on the slider limits.
I personally reocmmend making sure you meshes are sized to the dummy human in Unreal Engine.  Gets a lot of head ache out of the way.

Okay but when i export the mesh as fbx and import it into zbrush the "size" is about 4
Did you mean another mesh?

cryrid

Additionally, if you use the Gizmo deformer to Dynamesh ("Remesh by Dynamesh") then the scale shouldn't matter as much. Zbrush should account for it, and will let you dial in the number of polygons to aim for instead of a standard Dynamesh resolution value. 

kanga

I think what is confusing you is that the optimal size for a model is probably 2. Im guessing that is the finished size. I base that guess on the size of a unified finished character, because after unifying the character it is the same size as the default dynamesh ball from the startup library. You can test this out if you want.

I use zspheres to start a character because I like to go up and down with subdivision levels while sculpting. The start size of a zsphere is the ideal size of a human head in zBrush and the finished character (once dragged out of the initial sphere) is about the same size as a unified dynamesh character, if you model the dynamesh figure by dragging out the torso and limbs like you would with zspheres.

So the confusion comes in when using a standard sized dynamesh sphere as the start size for the head of a model. Ive seen tutorials where the artist does just that and completes the character without worrying about the size and without having problems with brush or slider sizes. It would be a different case though if you were modelling a large item like say a building. In that case I would unify an item like a door for example and base the rest of the model on that size.

The above videos you posted pretty mush explain all you need to know about working in an optimal size in zBrush.

goekbenjamin

kanga said:

I think what is confusing you is that the optimal size for a model is probably 2. Im guessing that is the finished size. I base that guess on the size of a unified finished character, because after unifying the character it is the same size as the default dynamesh ball from the startup library. You can test this out if you want.

I use zspheres to start a character because I like to go up and down with subdivision levels while sculpting. The start size of a zsphere is the ideal size of a human head in zBrush and the finished character (once dragged out of the initial sphere) is about the same size as a unified dynamesh character, if you model the dynamesh figure by dragging out the torso and limbs like you would with zspheres.

So the confusion comes in when using a standard sized dynamesh sphere as the start size for the head of a model. Ive seen tutorials where the artist does just that and completes the character without worrying about the size and without having problems with brush or slider sizes. It would be a different case though if you were modelling a large item like say a building. In that case I would unify an item like a door for example and base the rest of the model on that size.

The above videos you posted pretty mush explain all you need to know about working in an optimal size in zBrush.

So when using a zsphere ( with the initial size of 2 as a base (which will be the head) and block out the rest of the body, the size of the whole mesh (in this case head + rest of body) will simply be bigger than 2. 

This means simply i can append a zspheres with size of 2 and resize my model until the head is about the same size of that sphere?! (which than has the size of about 12!)

Alex_J

If you have issues with brush sizes being too small or too large, you can adjust the maximum range of the brush in pref > draw, you can unify your object, you can scale up or down... really doesn't matter. Just adjust any of these to get something you can work with in zbrush. 

kanga

goekbenjamin said:

...

This means simply i can append a zspheres with size of 2 and resize my model until the head is about the same size of that sphere?! (which than has the size of about 12!)

Yeah you could do that, or simply layout your figure in dynamesh, then hit unify under the deformations tab in the tools menu.

goekbenjamin

kanga said:

goekbenjamin said:

...

This means simply i can append a zspheres with size of 2 and resize my model until the head is about the same size of that sphere?! (which than has the size of about 12!)

Yeah you could do that, or simply layout your figure in dynamesh, then hit unify under the deformations tab in the tools menu.

Thanks @kanga but

after dynamesh:
zremesh, unify, subdivide and sculpt
OR 
unify, zremesh, subdivide and sculpt (i guess this one?)

those problems didn't appear the first time i finished a sculpt in it  :-D

kanga

Hi goekbenjamin.  I dont think it makes a difference. Try em both.