Art test - Normal maps not allowed?

Ashervisalis

I've received an art test which is asking me to create a jacket for a character. The part of the instructions which stood out to me is that the studio doesn't use normal maps, they just use color and spec maps. Normal maps have been such a large part of my pipeline, I'm unsure of how to simulate details without a normal map. Maybe baking out a curvature map and overlaying it on the color map will help add a tiny bit of detail?

huffer

You can also try the Baked Lighting filter in Painter, bake the normal map like you would usually do and use this filter to add more detail in the color map you'll send out.

slosh

Yea, sounds like they do a lot of handpainting.  I would handpaint a lot of the detail you would get from the normal map.

Ashervisalis

@slosh The weird thing is they focus on realism, so hand painting is a bit of a surprise to me.

I'll check out the baked lighting filter and see what I can do.

slosh

Interesting?  Is it a mobile game?  I suppose you could just do realistic materials and just skip the normal map.  I don't see how this would look good unless characters were tiny on screen.

carvuliero

Sound like most of details have to be in the geometry itself also you can bake AO and multiply to diffuse old gen magic

Why dont you ask them about the normal map ?

Do they want PBR or what other limitation do you have -> is there polygon limit , is it for real time or just offline renders ?

Alex_J

Maybe they already like your art, but want to know how well you can improvise. 

Ashervisalis

@slosh The studio makes DLC for Tom Clancey's The Division, so not mobile. I'm going to have an interesting time trying to figure out how to make this look good.

@Carvuliero Required props include jacket, backpack, gloves, optional watch, optional gear. Limits of 4500 triangles, 512 color and 512 spec map. They specifically states several times in the instructions they do not use normal maps.

I also need to use Photoshop to texture, not Substance, and I need to skin/weight the mesh to the character model they provided. Haven't textured using PS since I was just starting out, and haven't ever skinned or weighted mesh before, so this will be tricky to say the least.

carvuliero

Ok in this case everything smell like old gen texturing cut and paste images or seamless texture overlayed onto UVs

Skinning to something existing is pretty easy just bind to joints that will move it and copy weights from the model below

Ashervisalis

@BIGTIMEMASTER Creating a modern PBR mesh without a normal map would be hella improvising

@Carvuliero Yeah, I've already thought of ways of making it look decent. I'm worried about the meshes which have hard edges and the like, where I can't bake bevels and the like. I guess I don't even need to make a high poly version of anything if I can't even use normal maps, that should make things a little bit easier. Sucks because this process won't let me use curvature.

carvuliero

If you have left triangles to spare you can edge bevel or experiment with normals [soft/hard, I think its called smoothing groups in max] to achieve the illusion you are looking for

Alex_J

Ashervisalis said:

Sucks because this process won't let me use curvature.

How come? 

Ashervisalis

@BIGTIMEMASTER To bake a curvature map, I'd need to create a high poly version, yeah? I might do that anyways.

Alex_J

To get a very useful one, I suppose. But you can bake using the low-poly as the high, which might possibly be of some use. I think I've done that before, though I don't recall how useful it was, or if it would give you the level of control you need. But, it's an option that exist. Then again, just hand painting whatever detail you want on the edges may be just as efficient.

Joopson

Personally I'd probably whip up a quick high, with important details, to grab some bakes to aid in the texturing process. Curvature, AO, Cavity, Position, etc.

gnoop

Are those DLSs  for some special or maybe old platforms? I definitely saw normals map based shading  on  character jackets and backpacks in the game.     Does  the shader use a height map,  I saw a shader example somewhere that did normals on the fly from heights  only

Ashervisalis

@gnoop I'm under the impression its for DLC content for The Division, so PS4 and Xbox One. There was no info about height maps.

@Joopson Are those maps useful in the texturing process in Photoshop?

Joopson

Absolutely, they're useful when texturing in photoshop. Position maps are great if you need to mask details from top to bottom, or left to right. Cavity and AO are great if you need to mask things to only be in or out of crevices on the model, but also great to just multiply on top of the diffuse (especially in a non-PBR texture). Curvature is just fantastic all around for popping out details, and for use as a mask, too.

Basically, anything quixel or substance can use for texturing, you can use for texturing in photoshop, with very few exceptions.

Ashervisalis

@Joopson Thanks Andrew, I'll make a high poly and try to figure that out in PS for the test. I feel like whether or not I get this job, I should probably sit down and learn texturing with Photoshop in case this ever happens again.

Neox

could you possibly ask for a reference texture? I mean there are blind tests, which i usually do not like as the production reality is far from those, but well its about testing how you handle when you are on your own. And then there are tests closer to the actual production. Either way, asking shouldn't hurt.

Ashervisalis

@Neox They provided a bunch of reference images. If you google image 'The Division', basically all the images of guys wearing jackets were included in the reference file. The modeling is meant to be somewhat stylized, but they want the textures simulating real world materials as best as possible. This confused me quite a bit because when I opened up the base model, it was a super stylized, giant headed model.

I feel like its a bit of a crazy low poly count. 4500 polygons which need to include a hooded jacket, gloves, a watch, a backpack, and any additional gear I see fit.

Brandon.LaFrance

huffer said:

You can also try the Baked Lighting filter in Painter, bake the normal map like you would usually do and use this filter to add more detail in the color map you'll send out.

I think @huffer is on the right track here. Painter's Baked Lighting Filter is the way I'd handle it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHQfYklBVTY

You build up your materials as you would normally do in Painter, then just slap on the filter, set up your lighting, and export your diffuse texture. It doesn't just bake in diffuse light, but also bakes in all of the other material properties based on your lighting setup - capturing specular reflections based on your materials roughness and metalness values.

Add3r

It is not uncommon for art tests to be somewhat out of left field, unrelated to exactly what the studio is working on, as well as being focused on fundamentals without procedural tools.  The past couple of art tests I have completed before taking my current position were a total 180 from what the studio was actually working on and largely from what I also personally specialized in.  In hindsight it was to see if I was a well-rounded, competent artist that could cope with change and if need be, create art out of my comfort zone.