Tomahawk

polycounter lvl 4
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FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
Hello Everyone. 
I want to create a Tomahawk and I hope to get some feedback along the way :smile: All Comments and Critiques welcomed. 
I've worked on this for a little bit before posting it, but I'm not too far along so if I need to makes some changes it won't be a big deal. 

Ref:


Base Mesh
I made the handle have a little bit of a curve. I think its more visually interesting than a straight cylinder.  


Made a few modeling edits and put it in Zbrush. Still very early into the Zbrush work. 

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  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    Small update:
    Worked on the wood and leather straps. All C&C welcomed. 

  • Brian "Panda" Choi
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    Brian "Panda" Choi hero character
    Looking solid.  I think a  lot of this work is going to be textural quality, so get ready to kick butt then.
  • Optimus
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    Optimus triangle
    Looking good so far, has a sort of hand painted feel. As brian said, texturing should be high quality for this type of weapon.
  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    @Brian "Panda" Choi and @Optimus Thanks for the feedback. I'm looking forward to texturing it. 

    Update:
    I mostly worked on the blade this time, I still feel like it needs something. Did a little bit of work on the leather and handle as well. I'm gonna go for another pass with the blade to see if I can push it farther. 
    All C&C welcomed. 

  • Optimus
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    Optimus triangle
    Better, but the tip of the axe looks like wood, maybe add less "scratches"?
  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    @Optimus Thanks! I took out some of the smaller scratches but left the bigger ones. 

    Update:
    I'm happy with the sculpt and I think I can call it done. I focused mostly on the blade but went over everything again to added an extra level of polish. All C&C welcomed. 


  • Optimus
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    Optimus triangle
    Almost there, i'd suggest adding more of a leathery look to the straps. Also, the engravings are a little too sharp/rough. Make it look like it is blended with the wood, kind of like in this photo:
    \
  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    Update: I got some good critiques on the leather wraps, so I mostly focused on that this pass. I took out a lot of the waviness and I pulled the edges up. I also added some damage. I'll probably work on it a little bit more but I think it looks a lot better. 

  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    Update: 
    I got rid of that top leather part next to the blade. (Got some feedback where they said it looks like its floating on top, I agreed) I've reworked the leather a little bit more and I blended the wood designs with the wood. I think I can call the sculpt done now. (Hopefully) All C&C welcomed. Thanks

  • BIGTIMEMASTER
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    BIGTIMEMASTER polycounter
    The wood and leather is beautiful, but your metal axehead appears to be made from wood. I'd study lots of photos of axes to get a better idea of what worn metal looks like. I wouldn't bother trying to sculpt rust pitting as that can be done much easier with textures. 

    Steel is pretty durable. You can see here what a chipped edge looks like. It might not look like much, but a small chip like that makes a big effect on the tools effectiveness and cannot easily be remedied.
    Image result for chipped axe

    A very worn hatchet. Rusted and the edge is very chipped. I'd guess that most of this kind of detail would best come from textures. Only silhouette changing detail -- like the chipped edge -- is something that requires sculpting.
    Image result for chipped axe
    A very old axe. As you can see, little damage is actually done to the shape of the metal, though heavy wear on the finish definitely informs you this thing is old. 
    Image result for used axe
  • Joopson
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    Joopson Polycount Sponsor
    Something else to keep in mind is how the axe head is held on.

    Many tomahawks will have a tapered wooden handle, fattest up by the axe head, skinniest down at the end of the handle, so as you swing, the head only gets tighter.

    In the case of yours, it seems more likely that it would be wedged. This is done by carving the top of the handle to fit the axe head, and inserting a wedge (of either wood or metal), to keep the handle tight in the head of the axe, and stop it from flying off in use.

    Something like these:

    Wooden wedge:


    Metal Wedge:

  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    @BIGTIMEMASTER Thanks for the feedback. The reference images were a big help. Thanks
    @Joopson Thanks for the information, it was very helpful. 

    Update:
    I worked on the blade to hopefully make it look less like wood. I took away the shallow pitting and added deeper pitting. I rendered the blade with a metal material to hopefully sell it as metal. I also worked on the leather and the wood design. I tried to make the wood design look less perfect and added more chipping and deepness. 

    I think it looks a little bit better than the last update. I do need to fix 1 more thing on the blade before I call it done. I need to smooth out those little dots. 

    All Comments and Critiques Welcomed. Thanks
  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    Hello, Holly Molly its been awhile. Finally got some time to work on this. 

    Update: I reworked the top leather cross strap. I think this is the best thus far. I think I can call the sculpt done. All C&C welcomed. 
    Thanks in advanced. 

    Low Poly.

  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    Small Update: 
    I smoothed out the leather to make less wavy. All C&C welcomed. 
  • MarcoAntonio
    Great work with the HP!
    Your low poly could take some more work. I see a loooot of polygons that you could take away, especially from the head:


  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    @MarcoAntonio Thanks for the feedback. Yea I could have definitely take away some polys. Thanks.

    Update: I've baked the maps and starting texturing (WIP). This is gonna be difficult and fun. Good learning experience. Looking for some feedback along the way. All Comments and Critiques are welcomed. 
    I'll post more and better pics soon. 

    (WIP)

  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    Did a little bit of texture work on the Tomahawk. Still a WIP. All comments and critiques welcomed. 

  • MarcoAntonio
    Looking quite nice! However, those color are just too saturated. Especially the wood, that color doesn't quite fit it.
  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    @MarcoAntonio Thanks for the feedback! I showed my WIP to a co-worker and he basically echoed the same feedback you gave. I wish I would notice these type of things more. I just saw a nice redwood against a more saturated leather. Although I did make the edit and it does look better. I've got to be more aware of these things :smile:

    Update:
    I worked on the leather wraps and desaturated the wood. I added some darker and brighter areas to the leather. I also added some stress cracks. I didn't touch the blade this time. The blade needs a lot of attention. I'll work on the blade soon. All comments and critiques welcomed. 
    I also updated the presentation of the Tomahawk to work on my lighting. 




  • MarcoAntonio
    That´s waaaay better!! It can have some more work but you are going the right way.

    FancyMug said:
     I wish I would notice these type of things more. I just saw a nice redwood against a more saturated leather. Although I did make the edit and it does look better. I've got to be more aware of these things 
    No worries. This is something you get by experience. Try to give love to those textures and use references: Which are the colors of wood? What kind of damages has leather?... This kind of questions are answered by looking at references and takes time, experience and practice to get it right. It is not only a matter of observation (which is super important but not the only thing you need).

    Try to get the best result possible you can at the moment and go for another project.After making a few you will improve. I ensure you.
  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    @MarcoAntonio Thanks so much for the feedback. I took your advice and used a bunch of references when I continued texturing the leather and started texturing the blade. It's definitely helping. I'm gonna try and make these really good textures :smile:

    Update:
    I continued working on the leather and I'm trying to push it more. I reworked the blade texture and I think I've got a decent start. I'm gonna keep working on the blade. I also worked on the wood a little bit, I tried to make some of the darker parts darker and some of the brighter parts brighter. Hopefully I get some good progress done over the weekend. All comments and Critiques are welcomed. 


  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    Hello.
    Update: 
    I worked on the blade, leather and wood :smile:. I'm really liking the state that its at. I'm not really sure how to push it further or if I should. All feedback would be very much welcomed. Thanks

  • MarcoAntonio
    oh yessss!!!!
    OK, now looks quite good at medium distance. However, at close distance (last picture) there seems to be more work to do. What are those black discolorations supposed to be?
  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    @MarcoAntonio I'm not really sure what those black marks are. When I googled old axes a lot of the handles would have those black marks, so I decided to put them in since I was kind stuck on what to do next. I'm assuming its some kind of grime. Do you think I should take them out?
    I'm not really sure how to push it further atm. I've been looking at a good amount of references and I feel I've got a good piece here. But of course, if you see something that you feel could make the piece better please let me know :smile:
    I want this piece to be the best I can do so I'm open to all suggestions. 

  • Animas
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    Animas triangle
    Not sure if my imput will change anything as it seems like the axe is already borderline finished, but there are two parts that I'd try to work on more if it was me.
    The first one is the axe metal part. Two things are wrong with it, at least in my eyes. The blade is too uniformally thick. In all but one of your references the axes are making a very nice elongated triangle shape. In all except on, the crooked one in midle right. And even that one is starting to take elongated triangle shape near the "clover" part. While on your design its a square all the way and at the very last moment it isa tringle. It's more of a hitting item instead of a cutting item now.
    Also in most of your examples the actual cutting edge is way less defined, it is only hard edged on middle photo (one on the left of the crooked axe), but even there it looks abit less definet than on yours. If you notice on most axes the edge is borderline blended with the metal its in.
    But the above most likely already not changeable.

    The other thing that is still changeable is the wood handle. It just doesn't look wood like. From your examples it seems like you used bottom left one as a base. Wouldn't say thats a very good ref, since its kinda "blurry", "mudded information". You can only see how reflective the surface is. I think you were going for bottom middle and right ones, the ones that are dark wood with fine finish. If that is the case you need to make your grooves smaller, and cleaner. You can see where your groves go over one over another, thats impossible in real life. Also your texture doesnt follow the grooves you sculpted.the groves are wavy, the texture is straight. I'd say you need to either follow the groves you have sculpted while making texture (if its zbrush then you either have to paint textures in zbrush or in ubstance painter), or to make whole handle texture based. Meaning both texture and grooves are made to be the same (difuse, normal, displacement, reflection maps etc) and your model is just a crooked "cylinder" .

    Just my two cents, gl and sorry if its not very helpfull :)
  • MarcoAntonio
    FancyMug said:
    @MarcoAntonio I'm not really sure what those black marks are. When I googled old axes a lot of the handles would have those black marks, so I decided to put them in since I was kind stuck on what to do next. I'm assuming its some kind of grime. 

    Ok. Which references did you tried to emulate? You don´t really need to know which were the precise causes of those kind of details but you need to know what could have cause it. The idea is to take a "recent made" object and making it older. To do it so you need to know how things age and how they get damaged while years pass.

    Animas said:
    The first one is the axe metal part. Two things are wrong with it, at least in my eyes. The blade is too uniformally thick. In all but one of your references the axes are making a very nice elongated triangle shape. In all except on, the crooked one in midle right. And even that one is starting to take elongated triangle shape near the "clover" part. While on your design its a square all the way and at the very last moment it isa tringle. It's more of a hitting item instead of a cutting item now.
    Also in most of your examples the actual cutting edge is way less defined, it is only hard edged on middle photo (one on the left of the crooked axe), but even there it looks abit less definet than on yours. If you notice on most axes the edge is borderline blended with the metal its in.
    But the above most likely already not changeable.

    Animas is right. The metal part is just too thick and uniform in shape. Would it be possible to chopp some wood with it? This, however, is not a critical problem. You can just reduce its thickness on the low poly object. Since you are using substance painter and UVs don´t change a lot I don´t think you would get much trouble with it.

    Animas said:
    The other thing that is still changeable is the wood handle. It just doesn't look wood like. From your examples it seems like you used bottom left one as a base. Wouldn't say thats a very good ref, since its kinda "blurry", "mudded information". You can only see how reflective the surface is. I think you were going for bottom middle and right ones, the ones that are dark wood with fine finish. If that is the case you need to make your grooves smaller, and cleaner. You can see where your groves go over one over another, thats impossible in real life. Also your texture doesnt follow the grooves you sculpted.the groves are wavy, the texture is straight. I'd say you need to either follow the groves you have sculpted while making texture (if its zbrush then you either have to paint textures in zbrush or in ubstance painter), or to make whole handle texture based. Meaning both texture and grooves are made to be the same (difuse, normal, displacement, reflection maps etc) and your model is just a crooked "cylinder" .
    He is right again. It is difficult to use blurry info. First try to emulate a undamaged wood reference you would want for your handle. Then find a way to damage it like the old wood reference.

    Wood is a difficult material to emulate (at least I always have troubles with it). Get your time and don´t rush. If needed, take 1-2 days off this project. Once you get back you will probably find a lot of things you dislike. It is good to do this because if you are too much time looking at the same object your eyes get used to what you are looking at and you lose track of information.
  • Joopson
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    Joopson Polycount Sponsor
    Wood is really hard to get right; it's a really complex material in real life.

    As for the black discolorations: as wood ages, it oxidizes. Some woods oxidize more, and some don't really visibly oxidize for a long time on their own. Most axes, to avoid the handle cracking, will be rubbed in oil. In the west, it's usually linseed or flaxseed oil, which is a hardening oil, meaning it leaves a thin barrier on the wood that slows down the transfer of moisture from the outside world to the wood. This makes the handle less likely to crack, shrink, or swell. Linseed oil also darkens quite fast as it dries, and darkens the wood with it. I'd wager those black spots are dents in the wood where linseed oil or some other oil (mutton tallow?) collected and oxidized/darkened the wood more rapidly and intensely.

    Here's an example of a fresh oiled oak box, and a box after a few hundred years of oxidation (though even 6 months later it becomes visibly darker)

  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    @Animas Thank you for taking the time to write the feedback. I appreciate it. You have made some very valid points and I think you are completely right about my errors. I might go back and fix the blade completely. There were some things I did want to change about the sculpt so this might be my opportunity. I'm not really sure why I kept the blade like that considering I have all those references showing something different. I think I just did the blockout and thought it was ok. Dooh!
    As for the wood handle/texture. You are right about which reference I was looking at when I sculpted the grooves. (I just wanted the groove lines, not that actually wood color) I really like the shape and the cleanness of it. I knew that it might fight with the texture I was gonna put on it but didn't think it would stand out that much. I guess I was taking some Artistic license in that aspect. Although, now that you pointed it out I can't unsee it. I'll have to go back and edit it so it looks correct. Thanks. 

    @MarcoAntonio For those grunge parts I was looking at multiple references and I was seeing it fairly often, so I thought it would be a safe bet for me to put them in. For now I'll take away the damage and try to get the wood to just look like wood first lol. Although I do like roughness its at right bc it plays well in the light. Thanks for coming back and helping me push this asset along. Its been a big help. 

    @Joopson Thanks for spilling all that knowledge for me. I'll definitely be putting those black spots back into the handle bc I think it gives a good contrast to the wood material. Plus, it tells a story. 
    Thanks everyone!
  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    Hello Everyone,
    I've got some time this weekend to work on the tomahawk :)

    Update:
    I've changed the blade to look more like a tomahawk blade. I'm gonna work on the blade a little bit more. Gonna try and push more of the old metal look. I also changed the leather a little bit. I want to try and make the leather colors blend a little bit better. I'll also work on the wood soon. 
    All C&C welcomed. Not sure why the pictures are not attaching?? Will try and attach again soon.
    I just put the images on my blog
    http://justlevelingup.blogspot.com/2018/09/tomahawk.html
  • MarcoAntonio
    Hello Justin!  :smiley:
    Even thought it can be improved it looks quite good to me. Good Job!!
    The attaching problem happened to me as well. I don´t know why.

    Two more things: You should write your name and a link to your portfolio in every portfolio picture you upload (Sometimes people download a picture and then they don´t know where it came from). And Why don´t you make an Artstation portfolio? Everyone would have more easily to follow you and know of your projects.
  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    Hello everyone.
    @MarcoAntonio Hi Marco. Thanks for the feedback! :) Yea I should probably add my name and etc lol. I just added my Artstation to my profile :) Thanks for always coming back and giving me some feedback. 

    Update:
    I reworked the wood quite a bit. I pretty happy with the improvements. I know the grain does not match with the groves I made in Zbrush but I think its gonna be too difficult to edit. It'll just have to be something I keep in mind for the future. I also did some small edits to the blade. 
    All C&C welcomed. Thanks
    Hopefully the pics attach this time....we'll see....
    Doesn't look like they attached. 
    Attached new images to the blog - http://justlevelingup.blogspot.com/2018/09/tomahawk.html


  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    Well some how I can put pics on a new comment but not on my old ones....
    All C&C welcomed.





  • FancyMug
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    FancyMug polycounter lvl 4
    Hello Everyone,
    Update:
    Touched up the wood and leather. Also did some very small edits to the blade. I think I'm pretty close to calling it done. All C&C welcomed. Thanks





  • MarcoAntonio
    NICE JOB!! Yes, to me it look almost done as well. I would only suggest doing one thing: You could use anisotropic noise on the wood to simulate the wood grain.
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