ArtStation Challenge Raw and Brutal Critic please (I'm looking to improve )

Edwinter

Material:
Whole entry:
https://www.artstation.com/contests/wild-west/challenges/43/submissions/30570

Final result:
model
Hi, guys so after seeing my last work over the art station challenge "Wild West" I see myself as a noob when we talk about marvelous this field really took me a lot of time and leave me timeless for the final entry so first of all, I know my presentation quality is below decent.
Next one I wanna ask for your own point of view on how to improve.

-What kind of references do you gather when it comes to a nice presentation?
Over the technical stuff:

-How can I Improve my hair cards technique cuz over the viewport of sketchfab and I think over marmoset aswell I won't be able to see a radical graphics improvement and make it look like this super insane photorealistic ones you see is made for Unreal.

-Pose:
When it comes to possing you are looking to make a dynamic or more like a storytelling pose? or maybe both.

Background:
When it comes to the background Most of the times I stick to a black or 50% grey to keep my eye neutral to lightning but once I finish that and I wanna pop up the character I know the background will make a big difference so how do you pick the best one once you finish? do you make some kind of color scrip or something?

And finally, I just have this doubt about ArtStation contest:
what happens if you don't make it at the end and you need to quit? does this affect to your profile? Will it show you are a quitter instead of a keeper? is a good or bad thing?

Any other kind of comment is super welcome and if you don't like the pice let me know why.
PS: Feel free to comment I won't cry about the brutality of your comments ( I have my napkin near to me just in case a little of ouch came out)

THANK YOU SO MUCH  for taking your time and guide me over this 3D art journey I'm having   

NikhilR

I think you posted your submission twice.
So you wanted a brutal critique, well here goes.

"Don't be so hard on yourself!"
In fact I think your submission is pretty good. Let me elaborate.

Presentation/Background/lighting
I wouldn't say your presentation is bad. It tells me everything I need to know.

If you're hoping to add some elements to the background to make the model pop, might I suggest a contrasting color or a gradient/darker shade since the model seems to have more lighter shades of brown, so blends into a equally light brown background.

You could even render it on a black background, and make sure you have a back light behind your model. See three point lighting.

I'm not sure how many lights your using in the scene but you'd need more lights and a good HDR are light this model correctly. 
I'd use marmoset for rendering.

Posing
I like the pose as it is, shows a lot of personality. Might consider a few close up shots zooming into details, also use depth of field to pop them out.

Hair cards,
Can't quite help with their rendering since its sketchfab, I think you've got it right, just need more lights and adjust specular values.

Overall
It really depends on the look your going for, I think what you have matches the concept which seems like a quick sketch if anything.

If you're looking for photorealism, you might end up straying from the concept.
You could tweak the saturation/specularity of your clothing

Skin is a matter of subsurface scattering and proper lighting (Speaking from experience with my previous model and with help from @Brian "Panda" Choi) my lighting was too harsh bright, and made the skin detail difficult to spot giving it a stylized appearance which was appreciated even it that wasn't my intent.

Also texture compression will reduce the detail in a real time render (especially in the online viewers)

And you could tone down the noise and add a vignette which might help.

Your doubt

As far as artstation goes, people like models for various reasons, and most won't remember anyone give the crazy amount of art that's processed daily.

I was looking through the other submissions and I know they have to judge them and pick winners, but its like comparing applies to oranges, rather more like Apples to a very complex alien-apple hybrid.

What I mean is there are parameters to compare, but what people like is pretty random. 

Like this loli piece has a lot of likes for a variety of reasons.
https://www.artstation.com/contests/wild-west/challenges/43/submissions/30891?sorting=survivors

I'm not sure how a recruiter would see it if you get my drift (I would see it in context/job application without judging the artist but thats me)
Better to compare with yourself at all times while taking constructive advice and input.

If you're looking for this to lead to a job, know that there are other factors and the market and who you know plays a big role. In a large company you may not get to do what you want, you may never work on a character all by yourself. What you need to know is the fundamentals.
As an artist, there is always scope to improve.

Edwinter

NikhilR said:

I think you posted your submission twice.
So you wanted a brutal critique, well here goes.

"Don't be so hard on yourself!"
In fact I think your submission is pretty good. Let me elaborate.

Presentation/Background/lighting
I wouldn't say your presentation is bad. It tells me everything I need to know.

If you're hoping to add some elements to the background to make the model pop, might I suggest a contrasting color or a gradient/darker shade since the model seems to have more lighter shades of brown, so blends into a equally light brown background.

You could even render it on a black background, and make sure you have a back light behind your model. See three point lighting.

I'm not sure how many lights your using in the scene but you'd need more lights and a good HDR are light this model correctly. 
I'd use marmoset for rendering.

Posing
I like the pose as it is, shows a lot of personality. Might consider a few close up shots zooming into details, also use depth of field to pop them out.

Hair cards,
Can't quite help with their rendering since its sketchfab, I think you've got it right, just need more lights and adjust specular values.

Overall
It really depends on the look your going for, I think what you have matches the concept which seems like a quick sketch if anything.

If you're looking for photorealism, you might end up straying from the concept.
You could tweak the saturation/specularity of your clothing

Skin is a matter of subsurface scattering and proper lighting (Speaking from experience with my previous model and with help from @Brian "Panda" Choi) my lighting was too harsh bright, and made the skin detail difficult to spot giving it a stylized appearance which was appreciated even it that wasn't my intent.

Also texture compression will reduce the detail in a real time render (especially in the online viewers)

And you could tone down the noise and add a vignette which might help.

Your doubt

As far as artstation goes, people like models for various reasons, and most won't remember anyone give the crazy amount of art that's processed daily.

I was looking through the other submissions and I know they have to judge them and pick winners, but its like comparing applies to oranges, rather more like Apples to a very complex alien-apple hybrid.

What I mean is there are parameters to compare, but what people like is pretty random. 

Like this loli piece has a lot of likes for a variety of reasons.
https://www.artstation.com/contests/wild-west/challenges/43/submissions/30891?sorting=survivors

I'm not sure how a recruiter would see it if you get my drift (I would see it in context/job application without judging the artist but thats me)
Better to compare with yourself at all times while taking constructive advice and input.

If you're looking for this to lead to a job, know that there are other factors and the market and who you know plays a big role. In a large company you may not get to do what you want, you may never work on a character all by yourself. What you need to know is the fundamentals.
As an artist, there is always scope to improve.

Thank you for the C&C and sorry for taking a lot of time for replying back (I dunno how this site works for notifications)
I think is time for me to take the leap to Marmoset cuz over Sketchfab the biggest limit I guess is the lack of illumination tweaks (basically you only have 5 presets of lighting with the option of custom the properties of each one)
 
I know a hard critique isn´t like the best way to ask for C&C but I guess for striking a good C&C people must tell what they don´t like about the pice instead of what does they like or at least thats what my school have thought me.

And yes I think the same I post it twice but I´m still a noob over here so apologize for that mistake.
I think over the hair I really need the Directional map for make the spec work sweet.

Thank you for all this Feedback I´ll make a upgrade of this soon and for sure I´ll be taking all your advices

Ashervisalis

The main issue which pops out at me is how he is holding the gun. He looks to have a very weak grip and his fingers aren't wrapped around the handle. Other than that, the character looks cool.

Alex_J

I didn't htink this model had any serious flaws. 

Maybe the low-poly style keeps it from looking like the latest, hardware pushing AAA type of models that get the most attention on AS. But I feel like it has a nice style, but perhaps it hasn't been fully realized.

I feel that the haircards could be increased a bit to give a better transition into the scalp. The face could use a lot more texture resolution and general detail. 

Overall, a bit more contrast in color and roughness might make it a bit more interesting. For instance, the metal pieces on the shins seem to be about the same roughness quality as the leather, so it kind of all blends together. And lastly, some more folds and creases in the leather, like where it is pinched beneath the shoulder guard strap, might help. 


***oh, and I can see inside his skull. Probably ought to close the nostril holes.

PeterK

I can see you have technical skills; my one concern with this is something I personally struggled with for a very long time.

"Make the thing, not the 3d model of the thing".

So, to explain that, consider the buttons on his sleeve:

You made small, disc-shaped objects , and across from them, on the other side of the sleeve,  you made 3 darker colored protrusions. What you didn't do is make a button and the slits the button fastens into.

A button connects to the shirt under it with twine, and the opposing slits are inward, not outward like yours. The slits also usually have fabric in tight formation around them, meaning they aren't just slits, because that would tear very quickly on a real shirt.

WHO CARES?  Right...? But you see, The difference between okay game art, and amazing art, is in this sort of detail, spread throughout the entire mesh. It's your willingness to be patient and make the actual thing, not just a quick representation of the thing. That, elevates the art.

I could give you a similar breakdown of nearly every art decision you made for this model and associated materials, but I think the concept is easy to understand. If you overcome this, you'll see a massive improvement overall. As I said, I struggled with it, and I still do. Hopefully that helps.

Alemja

-What kind of references do you gather when it comes to a nice presentation?
Usually I try to mimic the concept lighting if possible, other than that photography reference is what you want. Majority of the reference you need will come from photography lighting setups, like 3 point lighting, back-lighting or Rembrandt.

-How can I Improve my hair cards technique cuz over the viewport of sketchfab and I think over marmoset aswell I won't be able to see a radical graphics improvement and make it look like this super insane photorealistic ones you see is made for Unreal.

To help with the hair issue, it's common to have a base hair layer painted on the scalp. This will prevent it form getting that "patchy" look you're struggling with. You can also have a base layer of hair cards that only have transparency on the tips to be your base laywer

-Pose:
When it comes to possing you are looking to make a dynamic or more like a storytelling pose? or maybe both.

Your pose is fine, just some minor things that other people already pointed out

Background:
When it comes to the background Most of the times I stick to a black or 50% grey to keep my eye neutral to lightning but once I finish that and I wanna pop up the character I know the background will make a big difference so how do you pick the best one once you finish? do you make some kind of color scrip or something?

I go dark grey as a start and tweak from there. Generally if I introduce colour, I go more cool with blues, greens or purples as I rarely feel like warm backgrounds look good. I think your background should have been a very dark blue-grey to help your character pop out, the brown you have makes it feel muddy.

And finally, I just have this doubt about ArtStation contest:
what happens if you don't make it at the end and you need to quit? does this affect to your profile? Will it show you are a quitter instead of a keeper? is a good or bad thing?

If you don't finish your entry, it doesn't show up on the challenge page of your profile after the contest is done. Only finished entries show up, so you don't have to worry about looking like a quitter. Honestly I wouldn't worry about it anyway because life happens and there are a ton of reasons why you might not finish.

Here are somethings I noticed with your model that haven't been pointed out already:

• You have several spots where the model is clipping in on it's self: the neck through the collar, a button through the sleeve. Be mindful of these things because it looks really sloppy and makes it look like you didn't build your model with deformation in mind which is hugely important.

• To me your textures are overdone, there is just visual noise everywhere, especially on the leather. The noise is also rather large across the board, this doesn't give your model a proper sense of scale or makes materials read incorrectly. Take the shirt for example, it has finer wrinkles sculpted in, but the cloth pattern from substance is large which would make it stiffer and wrinkle less (generally speaking) This seems to be a common issue I notice with substance painter beginners as it's really easy to add all the things when it's the subtle details that layer on top of each other that really make or break a piece.
• The skin is not painted correctly, missing a lot of the colour zones that will help make it feel alive. Check this out for painting skin:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ywhVkZBtq8&feature=youtu.be
• I think you're missing some of the thick to thin and layered feel that is on the concept. This is very noticeable in your model's legs where the end result wound up more tubular.

Hope you find this all helpful and best of luck on your next project!

Edwinter

OMG Guys all your feedback is glorious! I just wanna receive the notifications when you post something so I can stay update I'm going to sleep  (cuz is 2 am, not healthy lifestyle kids, over here but I'll be reading carefully all of your C&C)
Thank you so much for your comments
You are awesome guys

Edwinter

Ashervisalis said:

The main issue which pops out at me is how he is holding the gun. He looks to have a very weak grip and his fingers aren't wrapped around the handle. Other than that, the character looks cool.

Yup I noticed that too super late as well as some interpenetrations on the neck.
For me it feels like he is holding some magic wand instead of a gun

Edwinter

PeterK said:

I can see you have technical skills; my one concern with this is something I personally struggled with for a very long time.

"Make the thing, not the 3d model of the thing".

So, to explain that, consider the buttons on his sleeve:

You made small, disc-shaped objects , and across from them, on the other side of the sleeve,  you made 3 darker colored protrusions. What you didn't do is make a button and the slits the button fastens into.

A button connects to the shirt under it with twine, and the opposing slits are inward, not outward like yours. The slits also usually have fabric in tight formation around them, meaning they aren't just slits, because that would tear very quickly on a real shirt.

WHO CARES?  Right...? But you see, The difference between okay game art, and amazing art, is in this sort of detail, spread throughout the entire mesh. It's your willingness to be patient and make the actual thing, not just a quick representation of the thing. That, elevates the art.

I could give you a similar breakdown of nearly every art decision you made for this model and associated materials, but I think the concept is easy to understand. If you overcome this, you'll see a massive improvement overall. As I said, I struggled with it, and I still do. Hopefully that helps.

I get the point and Im aware of this too I wasnt too sure with some objects and decisions as well but the "make the thing not the 3D Thing" moto is basically what distiguish between a good and a reat artsit I guess, Also I was kind of afraid for the UV packing and If that will leave me with a nice details for everything else but with this challenge finished I feel I have a better Feeling of space and Polycount of my sceen for a mac count of 100k tris.
Thanks man!

Edwinter

Alemja said:

-What kind of references do you gather when it comes to a nice presentation?
Usually I try to mimic the concept lighting if possible, other than that photography reference is what you want. Majority of the reference you need will come from photography lighting setups, like 3 point lighting, back-lighting or Rembrandt.

-How can I Improve my hair cards technique cuz over the viewport of sketchfab and I think over marmoset aswell I won't be able to see a radical graphics improvement and make it look like this super insane photorealistic ones you see is made for Unreal.

To help with the hair issue, it's common to have a base hair layer painted on the scalp. This will prevent it form getting that "patchy" look you're struggling with. You can also have a base layer of hair cards that only have transparency on the tips to be your base laywer

-Pose:
When it comes to possing you are looking to make a dynamic or more like a storytelling pose? or maybe both.

Your pose is fine, just some minor things that other people already pointed out

Background:
When it comes to the background Most of the times I stick to a black or 50% grey to keep my eye neutral to lightning but once I finish that and I wanna pop up the character I know the background will make a big difference so how do you pick the best one once you finish? do you make some kind of color scrip or something?

I go dark grey as a start and tweak from there. Generally if I introduce colour, I go more cool with blues, greens or purples as I rarely feel like warm backgrounds look good. I think your background should have been a very dark blue-grey to help your character pop out, the brown you have makes it feel muddy.

And finally, I just have this doubt about ArtStation contest:
what happens if you don't make it at the end and you need to quit? does this affect to your profile? Will it show you are a quitter instead of a keeper? is a good or bad thing?

If you don't finish your entry, it doesn't show up on the challenge page of your profile after the contest is done. Only finished entries show up, so you don't have to worry about looking like a quitter. Honestly I wouldn't worry about it anyway because life happens and there are a ton of reasons why you might not finish.

Here are somethings I noticed with your model that haven't been pointed out already:

• You have several spots where the model is clipping in on it's self: the neck through the collar, a button through the sleeve. Be mindful of these things because it looks really sloppy and makes it look like you didn't build your model with deformation in mind which is hugely important.

• To me your textures are overdone, there is just visual noise everywhere, especially on the leather. The noise is also rather large across the board, this doesn't give your model a proper sense of scale or makes materials read incorrectly. Take the shirt for example, it has finer wrinkles sculpted in, but the cloth pattern from substance is large which would make it stiffer and wrinkle less (generally speaking) This seems to be a common issue I notice with substance painter beginners as it's really easy to add all the things when it's the subtle details that layer on top of each other that really make or break a piece.
• The skin is not painted correctly, missing a lot of the colour zones that will help make it feel alive. Check this out for painting skin:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ywhVkZBtq8&feature=youtu.be
• I think you're missing some of the thick to thin and layered feel that is on the concept. This is very noticeable in your model's legs where the end result wound up more tubular.

Hope you find this all helpful and best of luck on your next project!

Thank you so much for all these feedback, especially the video I watch it carefully and my mind just fly away! that was like the reinforcement I was looking to get over substance, I've actually come from a super old school texturing skills where they used to love the hand-painted psd way but I think Sometimes you just need to move along with the technology 
The tip of the hair cards of having a base with only the tips with transparency seems like the best one I definitely need to give it a try!

I actually don't get your last point (I'm sorry) the one about the legs but what I get was that some parts of my model don't have thickens in the geo?