What is wrong with her?

universe

Hi,
Lately I've been working on some female character. I began to work with her body but I came across a huge problem with her face. I'm posting it here, because I hope that someone will be able to help me with this issue.

Here is her body which looks pretty good:

Here is her head only which does not looks as bad as it could:

And here is combined version where  her head looks very weird. I think that the problem could be in her mouth but I couldn't figure out what is exactly wrong.


I'd be very happy to hear any critique or advise about her!
Regards

VanLogan

Hi  Universe, I think this is a good start. 
What are you using for reference? I think having a solid reference board put together will help you elevate this to the next level. 
Three things that jump out to me that you could fix are the neck, mouth, and eyes. 

The neck is too straight down, the angle should draft backwards a little more if you were looking from the side. Also there is too much mass on the front of the neck in the throat. 

Right now the lips look awkward because you have them meeting at a harsh corner. The corner of the lower lip should get pushed in more, while the upper lip corner should overlap the bottom a little. 

Part of what is making the eyes look strange is that the eye form is too large making the eyes seem very flat. Once the eye inside the head are smaller I think the lids will be able to wrap around that form more. The inside corner of the lower lid needs some smoothing, and is currently sticking out too far. Something to keep in mind, from the side the upper lid should be further out than the lower lid. 

I hope my ramblings here are of some help. Keep it going! 

carvuliero

You are right body looks good in relation with her face .I guess you haven't reach lower leg and feet because they still need some adjustments
I will suggest to post front side and 45degree 3/4 view of her face (top and bottom optional) , can't really tell whats wrong with her on a single view but jaw muzzle and lips/neck thickness looks wrong to me

universe

@VanLogan Thanks for Your immediate reply! Just a few advices helped me a lot. Here is the fixed woman:


1. I am using many photo references from different angles, but I'm struggling with reading all the data from them.
2. Lol, It's funny that I haven't noticed this fat neck
3.  I made the eyeballs smaller, so they look better but I might reduce their size a little bit more.
(Now I see that her nose is to short too)

All in all, I am greatly thankful for Your help but she still needs a lot of work. It's just a rough high-poly sculpt, so next I'll do low-poly mesh and then second high-poly  mesh.  I'll post further results here if You are interested.

Regards !

Skinner3D

In general she reads as a weirdly toned somewhat overweight female. Not sure what you are going for. Everything north of the elbows reads as somewhat toned, everything south of that line seems heavy.

universe

Hi,
Today I worked a little and I think that she is getting in some shape. I've done retopo and started high-poly sculpt. I am waiting for you critique!

Brian "Panda" Choi

Your eyebrow anatomy needs more finesse with the form transitions

https://www.flickr.com/photos/anatomy4sculptors/8829918480/

universe

Hi,
I fixed the eyebrows and worked on some smaller details of her head and I added some hair volume. Brian "Panda" Choi  Thanks for Your great advice!



Regards

Brian "Panda" Choi

Do you kind of see how the eyebrow forms still feel off? You're still not getting those form transition betwen the inside and outside of the eyebrows.

universe

Hi,
Thanks for the reply@Brian "Panda" Choi . I tried to fix it somehow, but I still don't feel it. For me, it gives her weird facial expression. Maybe adding brow would change it. Here's the result:

marsilainen

Studying plain old drawing techniques for anatomy and correct propotions is a big help. Using just references can be deceitful because everything is usually distorted.  Here's a yt channel series that greatly improved my models and sculpting.

Brian "Panda" Choi

Your transition from the bulbous outer eyebrow to the eye is too sharp. It's acting more like fat slumping over the eye instead of it being a sharper plane break.

Take a look at this sculpt for example; see if you can imitate the transition thhere.
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/n4GZE 

Also, the muscle and fat definition surrounding the mouth should be softened.  Looks like the character is pursing their mouth preemptively.

universe

Hi,
I tried to fix the eyebrows a bit. I think that the forms are getting better but they still need to be polished. Let me know what do You think and thanks for Your advices.

Brian "Panda" Choi

Looks better.
Corners of her mouth should pinch in.

Skinner3D

Looks like she has double eyebrow ridges. The nose to eyebrow curve seems like the right shape, but seems to stark or deep or something. The second curve above the eye is weird. I think it should be a continuous curve from nose to temple.

universe

Hi,
Thanks for Your constant help, You might not even know how nice it is for me. I think that face is acceptable. I fixed form transition of eyebrows and few little things. I made some clothes I won't show right now. Now I have to make hair but I do not now how I'm going to achieve result like shown below because I'm not good with creating hair planes but we'll see.

One Reference:

And my face:

Brian "Panda" Choi

Brow is still off.  There shouldn't be that hard line you've created coming into the nose bridge.  Nasiolabial fold needs finessing; doesn't feel like it's creeping over the mouth muscles.

Alex_J

You're own facial anatomy may not be exactly like this models, but you can use your hands to to feel some of these confusing areas on your own face -- like the brow to help you understand the shape in an intuitive way. Do so in front of a mirror so you can get the feeling while seeing the head from different angles, just as you will be working in Zbrush.

For instance -- this looks like something you already fixed -- but in the first photos the mouth and surrounding area was kind of on a flat plane. Looking from head on that is kind of hard to see, and yet things will look off. But if you feel your own face, you realize that the mouth is, to some degree, wrapped around your teeth and gums, and thus convex in shape. 

Also, look at some skulls, and some muscle anatomy photos. Then, when you know what is underneath (which varies much less from person to person compared to the topological things that make people look more unique), you'll be able to better imagine how the skin and fat will exist in the different places.

universe

Thanks for Your advice @BIGTIMEMASTER and @Brian "Panda" Choi ,
I refined mostly the mouth area and fixed complete lack of muscles in one place I marked on the image. I worked a lot on overall skull shape and cheeks. Her head is probably good enough for the moment, so I am going to create hair cards now and then move to body or clothes sculpting. Thanks for your help!

universe

Hi,
Here is small progress with her body and clothing:

Skinner3D

Head seems small in proportion to her body. Its causing other issues like her face looking too thin for her body and the distance from her chin to her cleavage being too long. Scaling up the head should fix it.

universe

Very small progress due to lack of ideas and skill, but I'm going to work hard this week.

Brian "Panda" Choi

Her brow still needs fixing.  Have you tried downloading a f ree facial scan of a female face?

ParksMarks

Hi universe,
this might be preemptive, but I thought I would send something along to get you inspired about haircards;
http://airship-images.com/division-hair-breakdown/

universe

Hi,
Thanks for all Your advices, it is really helpful! I've been fixing a lot of smaller issues with proportions and forms of her body and I've mostly done textures of her body and boots. There are still things to fix, so I'm trying to do them step by step. In worst case I'll go back to ZBrush but I don't hurry with her, so it's OK. I worked on the hair a little bit and I achieved not as bad result as I expected. It is first time I've seriously tried to create realistic hair with hair cards, so I'm happy with the result.

Here are body and boots:
And here is hair:

Alex_J

universe said:

Very small progress due to lack of ideas and skill, but I'm going to work hard this week.

This model does not define you as an artist. It is part of your training, right? So don't worry about how it ends up, but use it as a tool to refine techniques, learn new methods, experiment. No reason at all for any insecurity. You are doing the hard work, and that is all that matters. 

I second @Brian "Panda" Choi  's suggestion to get some scanned models for reference. There is no reason to work blind -- I seriously doubt any pro character artist ever work without reference. Ten24 is a great website to get some scanned models from, though they cost a little (~$25). Right now a lot of them are on sale. I'd recommend the female base model, there is a couple variations. So you bring that into your viewport, and you can rotate around it, view it from every angle, and seeing an actual scanned human with the same gray material applied helps a lot with visualizing real life references as 3d matte gray clay.

Also, poly paint on some eyebrows, and if the final character will have some makeup or anything distinctive, just get a quick bit of that down. Humans without eyebrows always look a little weird, and having that color on will help you visualize the model a bit better. 

universe

Hi @BIGTIMEMASTER,
Thanks for a nice word! I'll surely try this 3D scans. I've just redone her hair. I think that short hair will look better and they are easier to do than long ones and additionally the long hair look terrible in Substance Painter. Here is fast render:

universe

Hi,
I've worked a bit on her body and dress. Here's the result: ( I think that something is wrong with her face, but I just can't tell what)

ParksMarks

Hi again Universe, 
You'll have to look up some makeup tutorials, specifically eyes, lips and brows. I think a lot of character modelers- even really good ones- neglect knowing about hair and makeup techniques. 

Tectonic

the head anatomy isn't too bad, but the texture could use some more work. try to add in some more gloss variation for the skin, re-do the eyebrow hairs to be more precise and less muddy/blurry. the eye makeup looks like racoon eyes, try to reduce it down to just eyeliner, and maybe add some eyelashes. the corners of her eyeballs dont need to be such a saturated red.

Brian "Panda" Choi

Her inner eyebrow is still off.  You should get back to fixing the sculpt.

universe

Hi @Brian "Panda" Choi , @Tectonic and @ParksMarks
Thanks for Your help, it is very helpful! I've been trying to redo her face, so I tried to refer to Anne Hathaway, I gave my sculpt a little of smile and I tried to fix the brow Here is one of my references, so You can understand it better and thanks again for Your great help!

Btw. Do You have any tips for creating a portrait?

Brian "Panda" Choi

Błażej, you're inventing that inside brow indent.  That's not there in Anne's face, or anyone's really.  Please reference a real 3D head scan or better portrai sculpt.  You're missing the brow plane facing downwards that's above where you even have the indent.

Can you just share your ZTL?

I am not buying that this is a style decision.  It looks off because of it.  Your faces are starting to look as stylistically odd as Assani's here: https://www.google.com/search?q=Assani+Duongsaa&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwia6oDMlv7aAhUPo4MKHbgSCUEQsAQILg&biw=1047&bih=706

universe

Hi,
@Brian "Panda" Choi , I am very grateful to You for trying hard to learn me something I don't know why I didn't want to use 3d scans, so I'm ashamed of wasting Your time, but finally I think that I've got some better results. First of all ( yet without scan) I realised that form of her skull or face shape was too triangular ( mostly seen from top), so I inserted a cylinder and I corrected that thing. Then I put scan next to her face and I tried to fix all the issues she has. Now, I'm sure that scans are great! Here's the head with the scan. It still needs a lot of work but I think that I'm begging to understand that forms and I've got to make her appealing


Here's .ztl
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kicmrsaeeiz3ly7/Koral.ZTL?dl=0

Brian "Panda" Choi

Better.  The philtrum needs more prominence.  Soften the outer edges of the lips all around; they don't pinch like that on the surface.

pior

One simple advice : get the model out of Zbrush as often as possible. Zbrush doesn't have proper perspective, meaning that any likeness sculpt (or any form/shape judgement call for that matter) is an uphill battle. Of course many artists manage to power through it, but still, it's an awful environment.

If you want to work in a really fluid manner you will want to develop a workflow allowing you to judge your progress through a real 3d camera. Toolbag is probably the easiest way to do so, but unfortunately won't allow you to do edits. Best is to find a companion 3d app with rudimentary yet solid basic sculpting brushes. Most regular 3d software allow for that now so that shouldn't be too much of a trouble.

universe

Hi,
I've done some small progress but it is still very hard for me to work on details without losing main forms.

universe

Hi,
I've worked a bit today and I think that tomorrow I might be able to move to Substance Painter.

universe

Hi,
Thanks for Your all support. I think that this project took a bit too long. I'm going to play a bit with her make-up and pose her in ZBrush.
She looks not-bad in my opinion, but even though I learned a lot while I was making her. I am sure that it was a very important project for me and It'll help me in the future to develop various skills. Here's render of her body:

Brian "Panda" Choi

There should be a curvature form break between the mon pubis and the absdominal/stomach.

Philtrum is too sharp in the sculpt.

Aydhe

I would suggest you toio look at online references, one thing is the pubis and abdominal curvatire that is missing, you also don't have well marked pelvis which should be visible from the front shot, your legs are bit too thick for the upper body, and last but not least. Your neck is way too wide for the  body.

Tectonic

The neck is pretty long. I think its making the head look strange.