3ds max: XRefs for character animation

Nixellion

I've been working in both Max and Maya for years, and I try to be objective about both software packages. But one of the things that keeps bugging me about 3ds max is - working with references. 

No matter what I do, it feels like Maya's Referencing system is much more stable and reliable and more useful, compared to 3ds max's XRefs. In Maya they just work, and if I update rig file - all changes correctly move into animation files, including renaming of objects.

In 3ds max, I stumbled upon quite a few problems. For example - it does not update object names, if I change something in the rig file. Like renaming bones or something. And I did not find any built-in functionality for that, but at least it can be fixed with a relatively simple script.

But then I tried referencing Biped rig, and it just went haywire and crazy, bones were distorted and acting weird. So I tried it a few times and just kept working on animations without referencing.

And yeah, I heard about all the XRef updates in latest versions, I'm talking about 3ds max 2017 here. And I used the Animation or Character preset while referncing rig in, however it's called there.

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So, the question is - am I doing something wrong, or are XRefs just not usable for referencing in animation rigs? Did anyone succesfully use 3ds max's XRefs in their animation pipeline, studio or freelance work?

Eric Chadwick

My team is currently researching Xrefs, but not for rigging. We just want to pull in static meshes.

Sorry I can't help.much yet. 

Are you using Object Xref or Scene Xref?

Nixellion

XRef Objects with "Rigs to Animate" preset, which sounds like it's the supposed way to go.

And yeah, I don't think there should be any issues with static meshes, I'm more worried about rigs. 

poopipe

I did have a look years ago (2012 was probably the last time) and established it wasn't worth the arseache.

I ended up using animation export or bip files to store actual animation depending on what sort of rig I was working on - that way you're only ever dealing with one master rig file.

Biped should handle renaming so no need to worry there.  For bone rigs I always have an independent control rig anyway so can rename exported bones with no consequence. 

Nixellion

poopipe said:

I did have a look years ago (2012 was probably the last time) and established it wasn't worth the arseache.

I ended up using animation export or bip files to store actual animation depending on what sort of rig I was working on - that way you're only ever dealing with one master rig file.

Biped should handle renaming so no need to worry there.  For bone rigs I always have an independent control rig anyway so can rename exported bones with no consequence. 

Yeah, I think last time I tried XRefs was around 2012-2014 as well. 

Well, bummer. Refs are so handy in Maya, after working with them I can't even imagine any really robust and flexible workflow in which you can roll out some major updates to rigs during animation without it. Renaming is one thing, but something more complex? A simple task of just making an update and updating one primary rig file turns into a lot of work, even with scripts. I know there's Merge, but it does not always produce desirable result either.

And I think you should try updated XRefs, if you did not yet. Autodesk had some hype about how they updated them and made them better compatible with animation workflows. Maybe you'll find something working for you better there.

Thanks for your time, guys. 

monster

We use Xref Rigs To Animate with some success. But Layers, Hierarchy, and Object names don't update. I created a sync script that opens and scans the original file for those changes and applies them to the animation. Unfortunately I can't share it.

Another issue is that you can't export morph targets to FBX when xreffing. We already used an export script, so I just added some code to merge before exporting, then reset the file after export.

Basically, if you can script they are easy to work with.

Nixellion

Sure, we can write our own referencing systems and all, but why should we use XRefs at all then? I mean, if it only works half way. 

And this looks promising after the first quick glance.  http://smartrefs.com/

monster

Nixellion said:

Sure, we can write our own referencing systems and all,...

Sorry, if I made it sound complex. I didn't write a referencing system. Just a simple script that makes sure the xrefs update properly in the animation files.

Mark Dygert

I would rather shove a pencil in my ear. That is one area that Maya handles pretty well and I miss a whole lot when I go back to Max.

Swordslayer

Nixellion said:

And this looks promising after the first quick glance.  http://smartrefs.com/

Hmm, interesting indeed, especially the proxy references are something I could see myself using - if it really works as promised...