Catwoman bust (aka screw the comfort zone) - WIP

Prime8

Hey Polycounters!

I thought it's a good idea to step out of my comfort zone for the next project, therefore I decided to create a 3D realtime bust based on awesome the Catwoman concept of Corey Smith.
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/B55QA

The last time I tried something "human" is ages ago and I didn't finish it, I have only very limited knowledge of anatomy and even less of stylised art.
At first I thought I don't need a highpoly for this and just paint the textures, but now I think it's better to have a normal map, AO and curvature baked, not sure what the standard for this is.

My first idea was to sculpt this, but while creating the basemesh I realised that the process of polymodelling is better for me to learn the basic anatomy first before sculpting.

 Here is my first attempt, critiques and advice are really appreciated.

Ortho

Prime8

Changed the eyes a bit and started to model the goggles and ears to get a better feeling for the overall look.
Wonder how to do the hair, just model it?
Could really use some advice on this one.

 

JLeeD

Hey! Its always awesome to get out of your comfort zone, I'm the opposite where I've tried environments in the past but never finished them! So, Crit. Your model at the minute it really clean, which is super lovely. However, you're Anatomy needs a lot of work. 
I would go back and start from the inside out. By this I mean, start from the skull. The jaw looks far too forwards and the nose bridge is pretty messy. I would look at someone like Salma Hayek as reference and go from there.


Be aware of two things: 1. You're shooting yourself in the foot trying to learn this stuff with a stylised character. They are hard. 2. Stylized stuff is anatomically correct (...mostly). Humans are really good at accepting things that aren't real, but if something looks wrong we're put off by it and it doesn't look good. As an example, you can make a characters eyes really huge, but if you didn't alter the shape of the skull that's indicated underneath, it would look bad. So it's better to start real and go from there.
For now, I would forget the cat hood and goggles and model the head separate. Get reference on planes in your modelling software and get the the big forms nailed down before you even touch the secondary forms.  When you're confident its feeling right, move onto the secondary forms (and do research on eye and mouth anatomy. You're quite off) Model in a neutral face and then pose the expression later. 
If you take a look at this 30 heads 30 days thread, http://polycount.com/discussion/189005/30-heads-in-30-days/p1 you should get an idea of what poly count you want to be nailing the shapes at before you go anywhere near the level you're at currently. 
I hope this helps! Keep it up! Your hard surface stuff is super badass, so you'll hit this no problem  

Prime8

Thank you @JLeeD for the feedback, that helps.

Once I started I thought so too, that it was a bad idea to begin with a stylised character anyway I'm determined to finish it.
I do have references setup in my scene, but as you pointed our the chin and nose bridge are off, now I can see that clearly. Should stick to my references, not just put them in. 

Can you be more specific with the nose bridge being messy and the eye and mouth anatomy being off? At this point I cannot really tell what is wrong, I look at references and other models and try to make changes accordingly, but often feel like it's getting worth or I just move in circles.
Probably a lack of experience.

The mesh has a similar density to what I see in that thread, last screenshot is with a 2x subd modifier. Last screenshot in my first post show the actual topology.
Is it better to display the mesh flat shaded without subd at this stage?

Hopefully I have some time today to work on this according to your advice, will post an update afterwards.

Prime8

Here is an update.
I think it looks a bit more natural now, but a bit less like the concept as well, probably do to the relaxed mouth.
Topo is a bit messy, will change that next.

JLeeD

Hey @Prime8! Wicked improvement already, feeling much more solid. Her head is still feeling very round at the moment. The widest part of the skull isn't that much wider than the cheekbones themselves, perhaps get some skull reference and check that. To keep that round shape similar in the concept, I would keep that into the hat, almost as if its a helmet, especially since you're main purpose for this piece is to learn. Is there any particular reason you're not currently modelling the hat and head separate? 
I've not got time to do it for the eye, but I chucked together a quick reference board for what I mean about the lip anatomy,

The lips on your character are too flat at the moment. The upper lip rolls over at the corner and the bottom lip tucks underneath it.
Generally, you're missing the finer muscle anatomy of the face. You have no nasolabial fold and the structure around the eye and eye socket is missing, your character is looking perpetually shocked. Unfortunately I don't have time to whack together another ref sheet for the eyes, but you're missing the indication of the eye socket underneath the skin, the plane at the temple of the head isn't flat. 
I'm really pressed for time at the moment so I can't really explain myself properly. 
The picture of the granny is because the finer facial anatomy bits exaggerate with age, so they're easier to spot than they are when you're younger. Notice the nasolabial fold, the way the top lip sits on top of the bottom, the way the under eye skin sags and the top of the nose bridge connects with the eyebrow muscles. There's also a really great example of the shape of the chin here and how there's a curve upwards before the jowl and notice how the lower eyelid tucks underneath the upper eyelid. 

And the hardest part of them all is getting all the information of the face and simplifying it down. It all depends on the style you're going for and how old you want her to look. If you were going for something like overwatch, a lot of it would get wiped out, but if you were going for something like dishonoured (which seems closer to the concept) a lot of it is kept.
 
Really gotta run, but more pics


Sorry for the mess of a reply! 

Prime8

Wow that helps tremendously, thank you again!
I will work on it again after the weekend end see if I understand what you wrote.
I didn't separate the hood from the head yet to be able to edit the shape as one and I want it connected for the low poly as well, later I will separate them for the high poly.

Prime8

Made the skull a little less wide, but maybe overall it could be even more square,
worked mainly on the mouth area and added a bit of a nasolabial fold.
It's a bit strange, after some time working on her she starts looking more and more alien, doesn't happen with hard surfaces
Looks a bit older and chubbier now as well.

Prime8

Did some more changes, especially to proportions and topology.
The width of the skull should be correct now and I separated the parts.
Will work on the eyes next and add the neck, after that I think I can start to make her look closer to the concept.

Prime8

Little update, I think I'm improving but not happy yet, especially eyes.

ArNavart

I think with each iteration you bring it clser to original concept. For me the most noticeable thing in the eyes is that the lower eyelid is more forward than the upper one, it should be vice versa.  However, it's hard to give critique on smaller details,  when large forms are missing or off, like head / skull shape, neck, ears etc. and I'd even say the chest, because the way she looks in the concept is suggesting certain pose, which might be easier  understand with the chest in place.  With that being said I think first  it's better to do broad strokes correctly, then go into smaller details. When  I build models, I do try to do a line up with underlying structure, be that skeleton, muscles, or something else, depending on the situation, as in the example below. It doesn't need to be detailed skeleton, bones, etc, cylinders and spheres would do just fine, as well:

Prime8

Thank you @ArNavart!
Can yo tell me were you think the large form are off still?
I'm in line with my proportion reference now and thought the base shapes are alright.

Made a few more changes around the eyes mainly

ArNavart

Hey! 

Here are some other things I noticed:

- maybe the face is a little too wide, and also kinda flat, just a little.

- nose might be too short

- brow -lines are too narrow and round. Also notice that in the concept the character has kinda raised brows expression.

- cheekbones could be raised up a little,  and in general adjusted a little more, also it's conection with the nose could be smoother

- at the back, the skull shape ends lower than it should

- I think adding ears would help, too, with things like zygmatic arc, jawbone, sternocleidomastoid, etc.

Also I'd advise making each new iteration of changes on a new copy, makes it easier to see the progress and helps to be on the safe side when doing bolder changes.

Soppymik

I think it just needs some "fine tuning" and it would be fine. "Arnavart" already made a very detailed review so there isn't much to add. I also agree that ears would help a lot, because they can change the perspective of art to a great deal.

Prime8

Thank you both!
I will look into each point you listed ArNavert.
Maybe after that it's a good time to add the hood back instead of ears and add the neck part. 

Prime8

Made a few changes and added the body parts, think it's ok for the next steps.
Eye brows are already in an raised expression and boobs are lifted up fitting the concept, on a real person they would be lower.
I setup a fixed camera and overlay to be able to match the concept as much as possible.

JLeeD

Hey @Prime8! Massive improvement! The neck could do with a little restructuring. The neck is generally round, the widest point being the sternocleidomastoid. The back of the neck in your model is too thick and you have the sternocledomastoid connecting to the jaw rather than the skull. 
 


From the front view, the Sternocleidomastoid goes up and around from the front of the neck. It connects from the sternum, up to the skull underneath the ear. The trapezius covers the back and connects up to the back of the skull. The neck part of the trapezius isn't really visible from the front.


I would also recommend lowering the eyebrows into a neutral expression and then raising them when you're posing. It makes look weird and its hard to give feedback on
Keep it up!

Prime8

Thanks @JLeeD !
Seams like I misinterpreted one of my references, Fixed that sternocleidomastoido.
I started to match the concept already, the neck is a lot thinner now. The eyebrows are even more raised and in total she looks more weird now (especially without teeth), but close to the concept...

Camera matches concept

JLeeD

Damn them some big titties. Lush improvement on the neck!
Okay, so, first of all, your sternocleidomastoid is connecting to the clavical, not the sternum. They need to finish inbetween the clavicals (see above ref.)
The bit that needs tlc right now is the eyes. Take this with a pinch of salt because i am TERRIBLE at paint overs, but it was the best way to describe what can be fixed XP

If you touch your own eyebrow, you'll feel your eye socket. The bone of the skull, the eye socket, the muscle and the fat deposits around our eyes all give it shape. Now, the concept is actually quite weird in that, shes raising her eyebrows but her eyes are half closed. Its a really weird expression because most of the time, if our eyebrows are raised, it pulls the eye lids up and gives us a more surprised expression. Because of this, it may be easier to treat this as if she just has highly placed eyebrows, and that shes not actually raising her eyebrows in expression. 

What I've done in the paint over is bring out the outer eyebrow, to indicate the form of bone underneath and the fatty deposit there. Her nose ends too far down the face, I would continue it up and sharpen the eyebrow, the shape you have there is too soft at the minute. The nose bridge joining into the eye socket needs defining. You also need to improve the shape of the lower eye lid and wrap it more around the eye ball. 


The eyelids are influenced by the shape of the eyeball, which protrude slightly from the skull. 

The overall silhouette of the face is off. You need to define the cheek bone (which goes to the ear) and the jaw. You could also rework the masseter muscle, which gives the jaw a little bit of volume as it wraps over the jaw bone, before sinking under the cheekbone. In some faces, the line of the face from the jaw to the cheek bone is very slightly concave, if you see the black and white photo of the girl I posted you can see it. 


And one last thing is that the lips are generally about as wide as the pupils, and yours is stretching on the wide side.
The face is super finicky and complicated and you're coming on leaps and bounds with every iteration. The thing that helps me the most is websites like these https://anatomy4sculptors.com/anatomy_3d_library/sections/276 that you can see versions with muscles and versions of just the bones. If something is feeling off about your model, research it. Find out the name of the muscle and get real life ref from multiple angles. Keep up the good work! Really coming along!  

Prime8

That is very helpful again, thanks @JLeeD
I feel a bit stupid for not recognising some of the flaws.
Will show an update soon.
The lips are actually not as wide as the pupils, do I misunderstand something? Should they be wider?

Prime8

Prime8

Couldn't work on this recently and had to take a break, but now I found a bit of time for an update.
Not so easy sometimes to go back to a project after a break.
No clear idea yet how to do the hair, other parts are done except a few tweaks.
I will add asymmetry later.