being shot down by others and yourself but keeping on
polycounter lvl 8
I hope this post won't be long because i just need some advice.
I have been practicing drawing/painting for about five years now and, although i have progressed, i feel like i'm nowhere near as good as i should be. I know how valuable feedback is which is why i was always sharing my works and wips with my friends and asking them about things (i also used to post on here) but recently i met a senior developer from Blizzard who changed everything.
I asked him about my portfolio on Artstation and the first couple things he said were nice but vague "there's potential". But after that he kept going and although i've heard negative comments from my friends his were so extremely different. "You're not showing any talent", "That wouldn't even make it to my desk", "If I saw that, I'd see potential but pass over it and continue a search for an artist", "bland and uninspired". I know it's just criticism but i then overreacted and i was so ashamed of all my work that i erased my account on Artstation, stopped talking to all my friends for awhile and couldn't get myself to draw.
After that i had posted some drawings i mustered the courage to share but they all went ignored and otherwise i gave myself the challenge that i will "draw everyday!" so like this i don't waste any time and "git gud". This on the other hand has only burned me out, that is if i looked at what i was painting after ten minutes and decided it had any value worth continuing or if it was too bland and uninspired.
I lurk on here often now and wanted to post/comment around but seeing other people's work is difficult when i know they are so much better. I considered posting some paintings multiple times before remembering i would prefer not go through another night similar to the ones after my friend's feedback. To finish the post finally (i hope) what do you do? What does an artist do to get through being and feeling underwhelming? I can't gather the strength to pick up the stylus, what should i do?
I have been practicing drawing/painting for about five years now and, although i have progressed, i feel like i'm nowhere near as good as i should be. I know how valuable feedback is which is why i was always sharing my works and wips with my friends and asking them about things (i also used to post on here) but recently i met a senior developer from Blizzard who changed everything.
I asked him about my portfolio on Artstation and the first couple things he said were nice but vague "there's potential". But after that he kept going and although i've heard negative comments from my friends his were so extremely different. "You're not showing any talent", "That wouldn't even make it to my desk", "If I saw that, I'd see potential but pass over it and continue a search for an artist", "bland and uninspired". I know it's just criticism but i then overreacted and i was so ashamed of all my work that i erased my account on Artstation, stopped talking to all my friends for awhile and couldn't get myself to draw.
After that i had posted some drawings i mustered the courage to share but they all went ignored and otherwise i gave myself the challenge that i will "draw everyday!" so like this i don't waste any time and "git gud". This on the other hand has only burned me out, that is if i looked at what i was painting after ten minutes and decided it had any value worth continuing or if it was too bland and uninspired.
I lurk on here often now and wanted to post/comment around but seeing other people's work is difficult when i know they are so much better. I considered posting some paintings multiple times before remembering i would prefer not go through another night similar to the ones after my friend's feedback. To finish the post finally (i hope) what do you do? What does an artist do to get through being and feeling underwhelming? I can't gather the strength to pick up the stylus, what should i do?
Replies
I've gotten criticism like this from much younger artists (some just joined the industry, majority have no work experience), most of them working in environments but are pretty ruthless even when it comes to critiquing characters.
But I've never heard criticism like this from a senior artist, usually it would be along the lines of what you can improve etc.
And the desk comment, well there are a number of reasons for resumes/portfolios making it on a seniors desk. Not all of them have to do with raw talent or portfolio quality, mind you. It is a saturated industry.
I know one art director that recommended a colleague to go check out artstation to know what it takes to be the best of the best and oddly was involved in hiring another colleague who's work wasn't anywhere near arstation top row quality.
But you should continue to push yourself and become the best artist you can be. Be inspired but don't make a job title the standard of what makes great art.
For instance I like the characters from overwatch but that doesn't mean that cool3dworld is garbage. There is potential either way, lol.
the desk comment kind of links to the fact that i am not in any good academic or financial place right now and i'm still looking for a kind of foothold in the industry so i asked him hypethetically "what would your reaction be if i applied to work for you with my current portfolio?" and his first response was "the fact that i don't remember [your portfolio] should say something." and then he basically carried on to obliterate what self esteem i still had. If i wouldn't have asked that question hoping for an answer on the lines of "keep working man i'd totally hire you if you try harder" he would have never said that i guess.
Do employers often check artstation accounts? i am a little afraid of posting because of a weird defensive mechanism i have made myself since then and i know i'm basically unhirable atm so i'm a little worried about putting myself out there again.
I see what you mean about Overwatch, i myself really like minimalism and as low polys as possible (i also do some 3D and maybe even better but idk which of the two i want to do for a living).
that last one was the last painting i did which was the morning/evening after said event
btw thanks so much for replying none of my friends have been saying anything
It kind of goes with the territory I'm afraid. Uploading artwork or for that matter any form of creative output online into the public domain may attract diverse opinion, basically an open forum so to speak...
Anyhow why do you think you're not progressing? is it solely based on comparison with other artists work and/or adverse comments? and as an aside have you used analogue materials i.e pencil and paper, rather than digital means renndering (drawing/painting) subjects of interest?
It sounds like this was not a very tactful or thoughtful response from the developer. I feel like I see this so much and that we all need to get better at giving critique particularly in this industry. There is being honest and constructive and then there is being honest and destructive. In this case, they were destructive – they put you off learning and improving.
It is important to be honest when giving critique. But it's important to cater your feedback dependent to the level that the artist is at. The problem with the response you got is that it wasn't constructive. Instead of him just telling you what the main problem with your work was (whether that be for example an area like anatomy or texturing or modular pieces) he gave you some vague negative comments.
And it would be totally fine if he had just said 'at the moment the level your work is at doesn't meet industry standard to get you a job' – that is useful information for you. But there was no need to phrase it the way he did or repeat it many times. Particularly him saying 'you're not showing any talent' – this is incredibly unhelpful, vague and destructive.
He probably didn't realise he was voicing all of these thoughts out loud – or maybe he did and just didn't realise that what he was saying was very unhelpful. Maybe he is the kind of artist who made it into the industry easily and developed their skills quickly and so struggles to understand the artist who perseveres for years to get to his level. I think these kind of artists need to recognise that there are many artists out there who are at different levels and learn at different speeds. It doesn't mean their work won't reach AAA standard.
But this is where veteran artists need to take responsibility. People who come to them for advice and critique look up to them. They are looking for help with their work not to be shot down so much they give up on art all together. I feel like their should be a guidebook for giving critique.
Tell the artist whether their work is up to standard to get a job if this is what they are asking
Give them some useful advice on what areas to focus on to improve
If you feel like being nice tell them what they have done right so far
If you feel like being a dick there is no need you have already covered this by number 1
So anyway let me try and answer your question.
I don't think you overacted to the feedback by the way. I would have been devastated to hear this myself. But to quote Rocky:
'It is a very mean and nasty place. It will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me or nobody is going to hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard you hit, it is about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward, how much you can take and keep moving forward' – I love this
I think you need to have patience. It is said to take 10,000 hours to become a master. You are judging yourself after 10 minutes. Often a piece doesn't look great until it's nearly complete. And then if your skills are still developing it may take many attempts to produce anything you are happy with. Don't worry if you are unhappy with the work. Just aim to finish it. Know that you will be unhappier producing no work.
Don't compare yourself to other artists. Sometimes it might help to find artists to follow that are more on your level that you can grow and improve with. The best thing to do is to focus on your work and improvement – not on what other artists are doing. You just have to find it in yourself to create discipline, ignore any insecurities and make some art. Keep making art with a focus on improvement and you will get better. Make a lot of art and you will get great.
One thing I do – only ask for feedback if you don't know what is wrong with your work. I find myself not needing feedback that often as I can always figure out what to improve myself. That way I wouldn't be overwhelmed with feedback.
I also recommend taking a look at Brick by Brick by Stephen McCranie – he talks about the same kind of struggles in his comic about the journey of an artist.
http://doodlealley.com/2011/10/19/brick-by-brick/
I would advice if you want to create concept art. Focus on a particular area of expertise. Is it character art, environments, weapons e.tc and try and specialise in that area.
If it's character art for instance, start drawing from magazines, fashion books, photographs. This is what you need to do now to build your muscle memory of how things should look, how light works, anatomy e.t.c
Same thing if you need to do environments. For every artwork, always use references from photos or real life. Take a pic, if you need to.
Try not to bother about creating concept art from memory for now. Study and practice using references, it's boring but it would be worth it at the end.
There's probably a few cases I can relate to about this. I remember like around 2012, I visited GDC for the first time, with some images of a few props and a small alley scene in my tablet. I went over the Career Pavilion and had my portfolio reviewed from an Art Director at Ready At Dawn. I remember scrolling through my props, telling him I was focusing on props and environments. He quickly said something like "So, you're calling yourself an environment artist, but I don't see any environments, only props." I quickly scrolled through the only small scene I had at the time. It was blunt, but looking back, in his position, he probably goes through a lot of applicants that say they're one thing, but only show another, or not showing something because it's still a work-in-progress. Kind of a gray area, but your situation reminded me of that.
Also, I forget which company. It might be Tripwire, but one person that reviewed my portfolio was scrolling through the same images I had, and while scrolling, he would look at some of the images and say something like "That's shit.. that's ok.. get rid of that one..." I want to say that there were a few cases where some said that I should redo my portfolio, or wipe out a majority of what I had, which I eventually did.
Going back to your case, if anything, you're hearing it from a Senior Developer at a studio you're familiar with. It'll sting for sure, but it's something you'll eventually learn from.
This sounds like a nice example that there is hope even if i'm not that great, like a person noted below it's true deleting my account was a little of a mistake but idk i felt really bad and should probably recreate an account.
Thanks friend and i agree with all you have to say
Well, i guess.
I mean what speaks more than my mother or friends going "that's nice! put it on the fridge!" is seeing experts being able to flick their wrist and accidentally paint the mona lisa (that is very experienced ones). It takes hundreds of positive books to make up for a negative word and i really haven't been getting nice words recently so i mostly rely on comparison.
I used to only draw with pencils before i moved to digital in about 2015~
ToffeeApple your post is so appreciated let me see:
About his comments, i'm a little happy that i'm not the only one who thought they were a little too much because i had doubts that everyone on here would say "that's just criticism friendo, take it or leave it and your art is shit by the way he's right". I have to also note that i hold his opinions to an extremely high position because being who he is to me his word is like a gospel on my way to success but it ruined me when i realised he had very little nice to say and my religion told me "You're not showing any talent."
I know this is a little weird but i also wrote it down on a little paper because of how much i was impacted by that sentence, it really hit me hard.
I've critiqued art a lot when asked but i personally have a rule that regardless if it's nice or not i open with a compliment to it and then point out something that needs fixing. I always thought that i need to buy my way to that person's consideration first with something nice to be able to say what needs work.
Not going to lie, his words alone made me consider leaving the arts altogether and stay working night shifts at a hotel.
I am not sure if i covered all your answers you put so much effort in that post i have a headache.
The tablet story sounds familiar i think i've heard very similar ones before about the seemingly ruthless shots taken at your work and i can 100% relate with the fact that i had
Pipp said:
Well, i guess.
I mean what speaks more than my mother or friends going "that's nice! put it on the fridge!" is seeing experts being able to flick their wrist and accidentally paint the mona lisa (that is very experienced ones). It takes hundreds of positive books to make up for a negative word and i really haven't been getting nice words recently so i mostly rely on comparison.
I used to only draw with pencils before i moved to digital in about 2015+
Right, the main issue in order to improve apart from perseverance, passion and motivation to do so on your behalf, I think really comes down to the foundational knowledge of visual art which is not being addressed here. So off the top of my head i.e:
- Observation
- Composition
- Perspective
- Lighting
- Colour Theory
- Anatomy
Which is entirely learned through traditional drawing and painting, hence my queried response. I've made a living as a Portraitist through the 90s, exhibited work in brick-and-mortar galleries too varying levels of success alongside irregular intervals throughout the succeeding decades drawing/painting coupled with base relief timber carving since 1977 aged 16. I'm not going to write that you'll probably get over this hurdle eventually because I don't know, nobody does. It's quite a physiological blow no doubt, too ones confidence so basically IMO I'm wasting my time following up linking potential resources that may help you out...
But nevertheless If you've time to spare, possibly 10mins or so, then I strongly recommend reading these two stickies via another community of CG Artists I hold current membership with, then afterwards perhaps re-assess whether it's worthwhile for you continuing to pursue progression in this medium:
Becoming A Better Artist – Critical knowledge and techniques for today’s artists
Why 3D artists want to learn to draw/paint?
P.S.
I work 12hr night shifts, as a private security operative 6 days a week squeezing in whenever developing my passion project.
Five years is a short time.
Of course that is after getting some strong fundamentals and design theory. (And of course hardwork and imagination)
I'm not a 2D artist, but this might help, (last video is first)
And
https://www.youtube.com/user/jamajurabaev/feed
Define your goal as precisely as possible, and work towards it.
And start enjoying the struggle, rather than getting crushed by it. Yes, it is very, very hard, therefore you need to be very proactive about every single one of your decisions and stick to a carefully planned course of action.
Also ... there is a ton of not so great advice floating around the internet, take everything with a grain of salt. Do your own thing !
Art isn't really about talent. It's a combination of Theory & Muscle Coordination.
Art requires a very steady hand which is just hours and hours of drills (drawing circles, arcs and parallel lines) The other side is theory, lighting, colour, composition, perspective, anatomy etc.
A lot of artists just "draw" and try to find what looks good through trial and error. A good image is more like building a house then traditional painting though. Has to start with strong foundations.
you might have a natural affinity to learn art, however any one can learn a craft with enough effort put into it.