What are key differences between male and female faces when modeling?

NegInfinity

What are the key differences between male and female faces when modeling? Aside from applied makeup, of course.

I always have loads of trouble trying to make a girl character look like a girl and often end up with a something vaguely androgynous instead at best. Some tips/links would be appreciated.

At the moment I'm interested in getting the shape right, for example, on a model with a matcap applied.

NegInfinity

perna said:

This has nothing to do with modeling. You'll need to study anatomy like everyone else. The required knowledge is going to come to you through a long time of hard work, not in the form of a forum reply.

No offense, but this isn't helpful at all.

If you asked me about, say, human facial proportions in drawing, I would be able to recall quite a lot of them off the top of my head, and direct you to several books that cover the subject. If you asked me the same about programming/music, I'd, once again would be able to briefly explain some basics, and then direct you somewhere.

And there ARE a lot of difference that has something to do with character being modeled and not drawin on paper, because things that work on paper often don't work in 3d.

So... "study anatomy". Cool. Which books? Links? resources? Examples? Surely you stumbled upon something useful and could link to it? Any kind of information to accelerate the process, so I could spend less time figurativley banging my head against the wall trying to find that one tiny mistake that makes the model look more masculine than I need.

thomasp

i'd say the most common issues i see are the size and shape of the jaw, nose, fullness of the lips, thickness of the neck in relation to the head, the overall shape of the skull, especially the forehead. rule of thumb is that on females it's usually smaller, softer, rounder and less pronounced. perhaps excluding the lips.
in keeping with beauty ideals sizing up the eyes and emphasizing the eyelashes and styling the eyebrows also works a treat but is not strictly speaking anatomically correct, mostly just a result of makeup.

just looking at reference for 'ideal' males and females might get you off to a start. compare someone like the young tom cruise with his dominant profile and nose and those thick eyebrows to whoever is currently the hot chick of the month?

NegInfinity

perna said:

NegInfinity said:

perna said:

This has nothing to do with modeling. You'll need to study anatomy like everyone else. The required knowledge is going to come to you through a long time of hard work, not in the form of a forum reply.

No offense, but this isn't helpful at all.

If you asked me about, say, human facial proportions in drawing, I would be able to recall quite a lot of them off the top of my head, and direct you to several books that cover the subject. If you asked me the same about programming/music, I'd, once again would be able to briefly explain some basics, and then direct you somewhere.

And there ARE a lot of difference that has something to do with character being modeled and not drawin on paper, because things that work on paper often don't work in 3d.

So... "study anatomy". Cool. Which books? Links? resources? Examples? Surely you stumbled upon something useful and could link to it? Any kind of information to accelerate the process, so I could spend less time figurativley banging my head against the wall trying to find that one tiny mistake that makes the model look more masculine than I need.

No offense, but you're wrong about pretty much everything. Anatomy study is irrelevant of medium. You might as well ask "What are key differences between male and female faces when drawing in chalk?" It's all in 3D, regardless of whether your ultimate intention is to draw or sculpt. There's no way you can draw an arm or a foot in 2D unless you know exactly how it's shaped in 3D, and if you know that, then you know how to sculpt it, aside from the technical aspect.

Which books? Pretty much any. I have dozens of them, as well as DVD courses, digital downloads, experience with life drawing sessions, and back when I did a lot of character art I'd carry small drawing pads everywhere and constantly draw from life. Becoming a good character artist requires significant dedication. It's more than just buying a book or following a YouTube tutorial. There are countless threads with anatomy class/book/reference recommendations, just google it.

As for your specific questions, estrogen/testosterone affect bone development and other features, and so on, but I'd say that to have a decent hope of becoming a good character artist you should have enough of an artists' eye to see the big, obvious difference without taking a biology class.

In 2D medium it is possible to omit details. making viewer's brain fill the blanks in. Thus it is possible to hint a female face wit ha few lines, and it will fly. One of the advices I've run across is the less details, the better. In 3d it no longer works, because every detail has to be there. Someone once said something along the lines of "drawing is all about trickery. The sculpture, however, is the real deal where trickery no longer works". That applies to 3d because it is equivalent to sculpture. That's why it is easier to make a passable 2d lineart or even gesture drawing sketch than trying to turn that sketch into a 3d model that looks the same. Heck, people can go quite far even without thinking  in 3 dimensions.

Now it is possible that someone with a professional training might've forgotten about those gotachas long time ago, but as far as I'm aware they're still there. Especially when not going after hyperrealism, it is much simpler to make a passable drawing in 2d than creating its 3d equivalent. 

Speaking of drawing 2d arm without knowing how it is shaped in 3d, well, it is also possible to chea, look at your own arm, and copy it onto paper by concentrating on negative spaces. 

Anyway.

If you're literally sitting on piles of books, dvds and courses, it would help a lot if you named several you found to be the most helpful. I'm familiar with loomis ball/pane method and suggested proportions, but additional source of information would be quite helpful. 

thomasp said:

i'd say the most common issues i see are the size and shape of the jaw, nose, fullness of the lips, thickness of the neck in relation to the head, the overall shape of the skull, especially the forehead. rule of thumb is that on females it's usually smaller, softer, rounder and less pronounced. perhaps excluding the lips.
in keeping with beauty ideals sizing up the eyes and emphasizing the eyelashes and styling the eyebrows also works a treat but is not strictly speaking anatomically correct, mostly just a result of makeup.

just looking at reference for 'ideal' males and females might get you off to a start. compare someone like the young tom cruise with his dominant profile and nose and those thick eyebrows to whoever is currently the hot chick of the month?

Thanks for the response, I greatly appreciate it.

NegInfinity

perna said:

NegInfinity said:

Speaking of drawing 2d arm without knowing how it is shaped in 3d, well, it is also possible to chea, look at your own arm, and copy it onto paper by concentrating on negative spaces. 

Simply copying what you see doesn't mean you actually know anything about anatomy.

Anatomy for the Artist - Jeno Barcsay: My go-to for anatomy reference
Hogarth - Very "3D" and easy to get into for someone with a modeling background
Bridgman - Simplification

Vague, as these book recommendations always become silly arguments. Just get any widely recommended interpretive book and any widely recommended reference book (just make sure it's artistic, not medical). Start with the latter. Check out the local bookstore and get whatever speaks to you.  

However, simply copying what you see produces desired result. Even without the knowledge. 

Anyway, I'll check out the books you suggested. I think I should be able to at least get a hold of hogarth.

musashidan

Check out this Steve Lord course. He breaks down the female face/proportions and what to look out for to not sculpt ugly bloke-ish women : https://www.uartsy.com/course/female-face-sculpting-with-steve-lord

Mark Dygert

You can use the same topology for both male and female, so modeling isn't that different. It comes down to how you shape that topology so at that point its anatomy knowledge like Perna said.

musashidan

Yes, I think the problem here is the thread title choice.  As it doesn't have any relevance to technical modeling/topology/etc. It's purely a case of observational study/interpretation with a few key anatomical(and morphology particularly relating to soft/round and angled/pronounced) 'rules'.

NegInfinity

musashidan said:

Check out this Steve Lord course. He breaks down the female face/proportions and what to look out for to not sculpt ugly bloke-ish women : https://www.uartsy.com/course/female-face-sculpting-with-steve-lord

I'll check it out, thanks.

Mark Dygert said:

You can use the same topology for both male and female, so modeling isn't that different. It comes down to how you shape that topology so at that point its anatomy knowledge like Perna said.

musashidan said:

Yes, I think the problem here is the thread title choice.  As it doesn't have any relevance to technical modeling/topology/etc. It's purely a case of observational study/interpretation with a few key anatomical(and morphology particularly relating to soft/round and angled/pronounced) 'rules'.

Erm. Yes, I realize that topology can be the same. The problem is getting the shape right. It was not my intent to imply that male/female would require differnet topology, and what I wanted to know was key anatomical differences (since there aren't a lot of them).

Anyway, I've bumped into bunch of "male female skull difference" images from pinterest and I think they'll do the trick.

I'll check my model later when I get to it. 

Thanks for the responses.

almighty_gir

While the differences between male/female generalities are quite well documented... I wonder if a better study might be to find sets of twins that were born boy/girl. The reason i suggest this, is because they would be exactly the same age, would have largely similar environmental considerations, and would be extremely close genetically.

FourtyNights

Here are some good books, mentors, tutorials and references I've learnt from a lot:

Eliot Goldfinger - Human Anatomy for Artists: The Elements of Form
https://www.amazon.com/Human-Anatomy-Artists-Elements-Form/dp/0195052064

Gottfried Bammes - Der Nackte Mensch (written in german, but it has great illustrations)
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51XyiyEpuWL._SX357_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

Ryan Kingslien - ZBrush Studio Projects: Realistic Game Characters:
https://www.amazon.com/ZBrush-Studio-Projects-Realistic-Characters/dp/047087256X

Ryan Kingslien's "Sculpting the face" webinar with a good amount of info:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEiBYgBmhH0

Zack Petroc's anatomy material:
https://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/instructors/zack-petroc

Scott Eaton's anatomy courses (probably the best possible way to learn anatomy):
http://www.scott-eaton.com/courses

Anatomy for Sculptors:
https://anatomy4sculptors.com/art/

Rafael Grassetti's Gumroad material:
https://gumroad.com/grassetti#

Hossein Diba's anatomy material:
https://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/tutorials/creating-hyper-realistic-characters-in-zbrush

Male and female anatomy references:
https://www.3d.sk/

References specifically for females (which is a sister site to 3D.sk I think):
https://www.female-anatomy-for-artist.com/

Another similar site to 3D.sk and such for both male and female references:
http://www.livemodelbooks.com/

David Richardson's planar anatomy statues in Sketchfab:
https://sketchfab.com/models/b6fe04e886b34f84941dcdf1c4ff6c35

This should get you started to learn anatomy.

Neox

careful with hogarth, a beginner studying and ultimately copying his work will have a fun time getting it out of their system. Took me ages to get it out again. It totally has its values but without further instruction or experience this might lead into a lot of weird stuff.
Hogarth is great for flow, but his bubbly volumetric shading just doesnt translate into 3d very well. unless you are into bubbly stuff.

thomasp

i agree about hogarth.

look at pictures or scans of actual humans not those chiseled creatures covered in 'landmarks' if your problem is to identify those combinations of subtle characteristics in the human face that make it appear feminine and/or attractive.

unless you want to recreate what looks like 1930's propaganda posters, that is.